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Originally posted by rapier28
There were no evidence of tanks driving over people.
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Most if not all of the deaths came by guns.
Originally posted by zakattack
NK it was F-86 against Mig-15 Basicaly the same aircraft but The mig had greater handling and better climb rate but the US had better trained pilots, The US pilots using there F-86s, for everyone of our F-86s shot down Ten Mig-15 were shot down in the end 810 Mig-15 were shot down while the US only lost 80 some aircraft but here is the interesting part, of the 810 mig-15 shot down 792 of them were piloted by russian pilots who were at the time suppose to be better then the US pilots" dont quote me on this but i believe during the NK war Russian pilots were getting more Flight training hours then the US pilots were and Russia had the better aircraft"
Originally posted by Facefirst
Originally posted by ghostsoldier
I wouldn't have been surprised if the US was the iniator of the trade embargos against China back in the days of Tienamin Square...
And did China not deserve that? That was a heinous act that deserved some kind of response. They could have moved those college kids out of the Square without driving tanks over them.
Originally posted by rapier28
Originally posted by zakattack
NK it was F-86 against Mig-15 Basicaly the same aircraft but The mig had greater handling and better climb rate but the US had better trained pilots, The US pilots using there F-86s, for everyone of our F-86s shot down Ten Mig-15 were shot down in the end 810 Mig-15 were shot down while the US only lost 80 some aircraft but here is the interesting part, of the 810 mig-15 shot down 792 of them were piloted by russian pilots who were at the time suppose to be better then the US pilots" dont quote me on this but i believe during the NK war Russian pilots were getting more Flight training hours then the US pilots were and Russia had the better aircraft"
Those numbers look very suspect, during the NK war, the Russian pilots dominated the skies. I would like to know your source of those numbers.
Originally posted by Broadsword20068
The Russian pilots did NOT dominate the skies over North Korea. Even the international aviation magazines acknowlege that.
Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Originally posted by Broadsword20068
The Russian pilots did NOT dominate the skies over North Korea. Even the international aviation magazines acknowlege that.
The facts say otherwise.
The 13-1 kill ratio was U.S. pilots vs. the atrociously bad North Korean and Chinese fighters, not Soviet fighters. While Soviet fighters were limited in involvement, the kill ratio was in the favor of the Soviets. Take a look:
U.N. aircraft lost to Soviet pilots: 1,300 (around 500 F-86)
Soviet aircraft lost: 345
Soviet MiG-15 - F-86 kill ratio: 4-1
American and Soviet information do not contradict each other either.
16 Soviet pilots made ace, Evgeni Pepelyaev being the leader with 23. Several of these aces were awarded the Gold Star Medal of the Hero of the Soviet Union.
[edit on 18-3-2005 by sweatmonicaIdo]
Originally posted by Angrykirill
Exactly, the Sabres ratio was 10:1 vs. any plane in the region which basically was.. Asian pilots *rolleyes*, but the 4:1 rate is Russians in Fagots vs. Sabres
Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Originally posted by Angrykirill
Exactly, the Sabres ratio was 10:1 vs. any plane in the region which basically was.. Asian pilots *rolleyes*, but the 4:1 rate is Russians in Fagots vs. Sabres
This also isn't a case of disinformation. Everyone, yes, INCLUDING U.S. authorities, all confirm that the Soviets dominated allied air forces during the Korean War, despite the fact the Soviets were limited in their overall involvement. There is no contradiction of data. The only contradiction that could arise is if people confused the numbers as the total number of communist fighters as opposed to just Soviet aircraft.
One correction, Nikolai Sutyagen was the leading Soviet ace with 21 kills.
The 13-1 kill ratio was incredibly lop-sided, but I say much of that has changed and we won't be seeing such lop-sided ratios in favor of U.S. fighters much anymore.
[edit on 18-3-2005 by sweatmonicaIdo]
Originally posted by Broadsword20068
and also the experience level. The Korean/Chinese/Russian pilots were far less experienced then the American ones.
Originally posted by rapier28
Broadsword, if you were talking to me, i was merely arguing over factual details. I have studied Tianneman and was only making a factual observation, not a opinion.
As for Non-lethal weapons and why China never used them, the answer is quite simple. They never had any at the time, no rubber bullets no nothing.
Tiannemen itself was not as many believe "college students vs government". It was a power struggle in the government. The Jiang Zemin generation of Chinese leaders made they stake to power on the back of that power struggle, which Zhao Ziyang lost.
For example, the Beijing military forces refused to heed the call of the Anti-Zhao forces because the head of the Beijing military division was a friend of Zhao and the Beijing military refused orders to fire upon Beijing people.
Under-educated forces from China's poor areas were brought in and committed the massacre in Tianneman Square. As you can see, at the time, China was close to a civil war with the military divided. In fact, Zhao himself only went to the students when he knew he lost the power struggle. Zhao was not the angel that the west made him out to be.
To view it as a "student struggle" is naive to say the least.