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U.S. vs. China

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posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 04:27 AM
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^^^
Not really; but one can make a general estimate of how much uranium/plutonium they have in mineral deposits, unless they're importing that..which i seriously doubt..




posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by revengeogmakhno

But as proteinx suggests, do you really know how many ICBMs they have?



It is extremely difficult to hid the development,production, and deployment of ICBM's - particularly Silo based (which China had concentrated on before the DF-31). We may not know exactly (down to the warhead) how many ICBM/IRBM's China has - but we have a very good idea.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by Starwars51

Originally posted by revengeogmakhno

But as proteinx suggests, do you really know how many ICBMs they have?



It is extremely difficult to hid the development,production, and deployment of ICBM's - particularly Silo based (which China had concentrated on before the DF-31). We may not know exactly (down to the warhead) how many ICBM/IRBM's China has - but we have a very good idea.


then, how many? 20 of them in 20 years?

Another thing, Soviet Union once devloped a very mobile launching system based on railroad, China has a very similar system, the difference is the Chinese system is underground.

Plus, 094 SSBNs will mount 16 JL-2 submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) with a maximum range of 8,000kms, and each missiles can contain at least 3 bombs attacking three targets at the same time. How do you count the number then?

By the way,
My indian friend, Do you know which country has the highest production and most convinient resources for uranium/plutonium in this world? And you are going to tell the world again that indian can produce 20 of them in 20 days and China can only make 20 in 20 years? Let me tell you, my vagetarian friend:
Production of uranium/plutonium need a huge mining resouces and huge facility to refine it, the final production ratio is extreme low. Indian even only have a single low level reactor, and it is malfunction for many years!!! The raw material Indian used in 1998 nuclear test was mostly purchased from somewhere else. Google it, my indian friend, do some research, you just cannot produce it!!!! Only few countries in the world at this moment can support such huge facility to mine and refine uranium/plutonium. And it need lots worker to eat meat so they can have energy to work on it!!


One reactor in China (Jiuquan) alone can produce tons of uranium/plutonium and more than 200 warhead. you can very easily google it from a academic research published last year, but in CIA annual report, Chinese warhead number is still just 20 !! what a funny thing.

Yeah, you are going to say that Indian has begun sending ambassdor to another galaxy system already. You are going to get much higher standard weapon from there.



[edit on 20-1-2005 by proteinx]



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 06:13 PM
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the u.s would never ever use nukes as a pre-empitve strike against china, unless we or our allies were nuked-and this is just a hypothetical situation-could the us win a war its not like its really going to happen



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 06:18 PM
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Well, in testing right now, Space based lasers will be the main defence verses nukes. 12 satalites can take out 94% of nukes launched by a single country. While 24 can take out every missile launched.


Thats a hell of a system based to be launched in 2020.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 07:08 PM
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It would be China versus the us and allies. South Korea could easily take North Korea with its million man army supplied with american weaponry that would eventually be able to threaten Chinas eastern flank. Plus the Japanese would help out on the eastern flank as well. I bet India would like to get rid of China. China is a threat economically to India and I think India dislikes China. India has a substantial land force. Australia would come to the aid of the us and provide troops and more importantly air force bases and re supply lines. There are other allies but I will not go into that because what i have listed will be enough.

China has roughly 2000 war planes to contend with. Once those planes are taken out we could bomb at will. No country can win a war when it cannot protect it self from the air. At that point it does not matter how many land forces china has. We could attack thier production facilities while ours remain intact. Chinas navy would be a push over for the US navy. The only problems that I can see are Chinas submarines.

One point to also consider is that china is a repressive regime. While in college i talked to a guy from china that was at tiananmen square. He stated he hated the government and he is not alone.

Now the other problem are chinas nukes and the us military has been working on bunker busting bombs to take out hardened bunkers for just this type of job. Not sure how far along they are so who knows if china could get off an icbm that could hit the us. If they get one off the ground we have other layers that would take out some if not all of the icbms before they could affect the us main land. Again the main concern is Chinas subs. I think they have a sub or 2 with nukes that could pop up off the coast and take out a few cities

Now i have not seen anyone mention biological warfare. I do believe we would use biological warfare to target the chineese and can not even speculate as to what we now have.

The only hope that I could see that China wins is if they attack first with nukes and biological warfare in the us that just absolutely devestates the us. But then are subs have enough nukes to kill everyone in china.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by proteinx

Originally posted by Starwars51

Originally posted by revengeogmakhno

But as proteinx suggests, do you really know how many ICBMs they have?



It is extremely difficult to hid the development,production, and deployment of ICBM's - particularly Silo based (which China had concentrated on before the DF-31). We may not know exactly (down to the warhead) how many ICBM/IRBM's China has - but we have a very good idea.


then, how many? 20 of them in 20 years?

Another thing, Soviet Union once devloped a very mobile launching system based on railroad, China has a very similar system, the difference is the Chinese system is underground.


[edit on 20-1-2005 by proteinx]


First, the idea of an underground rail mobile ICBM is complete BS. China proably could produce an extremely large number of warheads if they wanted to. However, unlike the US and Russia, China is not interested in a counterforce approach - that is being able to destroy the military assets of other countries - which requires large numbers of very accurate weapons (very expensive). Instead, the Chinese have chosen a countervalue approach - where they instead will most likely target major cities/commercial/industrial centers. This is much less expensive and probably just as effective.

No one is saying that China is incapable of producing anything (although they were never able to perfect MIRV's until Boeing showed them how to launch multiple satelites into multiple orbits under a Clinton era "peaceful" technology transfer), bu they have chosen not to. If you're going to taget major cities, 20 ICBM's is probably enough.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 07:56 PM
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Well *ing put cryptorsa1001. Too bad you will get the runnaround in this place with hardcore ignorant people...






If you're going to taget major cities, 20 ICBM's is probably enough.



That is more then enough, though, one would have to pull off such an attack in the near future as the missile defense system will have most bugs ironed out in the coming years.

It has been estimated many by many sources that china only has ~19-20 ICBMs and they are only capable of hitting the U.S. West Coast; however, most of these highly inaccurate missiles are pointed towards Russia. The real problem that the world faces is Chinese MIRV's that will eventually be developed for their subs but most, if not all of the time these subs stay just off the Chinese coast. If the need arises and their sub fleet doesn’t grow substantially they would easily be token out by Japanese ASW operations...



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 09:59 PM
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First of all, please, guys, How many of you really did little search before you post your opinion?It is very very easy, thanks to the fantasic tool: google.com you basically can find any useful information you want to look up.

Here is the link about estimation of Chinese nuclear weapons from academic research (out of politics), very nice article, even their data very scientific, as researchers, they claim many times in their reports that it still heavily underestimate the real number.
www.ucsusa.org...


Now, back to you many of your other wrong information:

Regarding the laser weapon, I have to make you guys really disappointed about American real laser weapons. There are general two ways to make a strong laser: from chemical reaction or from stimulation of solid state. Many countries can do it with the first method. But the downside is that you have to carry a large container of chemicals to get it activated then shot a strong "laser", did you guys notice that the so called laser weapons shot from a American jet fighter? man, that plane is more like a cargo plane. It is not realistic for air force at all. Not mention for satellite, you have to make the satellite very large and financially it is impossible. All these showing around from US airforce are just "show".

The second method is so called solid state laser, you can activate a very strong laser beam with a very small device, guess what, no matter in theory or in application development, China lead America. Again, check some later academic references. Of course, there are still lots problem, such as stability. But, China has developed several prototype satellites with laser bean to shut down American GPS system which contains 21 satellites. Even America might have some backup, but shotting down 1/3 of these satellites will take days for American to recover it, in these days, all the GPS-guided hi-tech weapons will be BS. Of course, Chinese system could be completely destroyed too. However, in the blind-blind situation, if war happens near by Chinese sea, it is complete nightmares for American navy.

about nuke exchange? we all die. But we have hundreds millions Chinese scattered around the world linked with 5000-year Chinese culture. What about Americans after nuke exchange? Is there anybody in the world then claim they are American anymore? No! cause American are all fundamentally immigrants, if the new continent over, then just stay where they were originally from, who the hell care about so called America then? Which means: American as a native race will die out in history, but, around the world, in any street, you will still see Chinese who speak Chinese and celebrate Chinese new year.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by proteinx
First of all, please, guys, How many of you really did little search before you post your opinion?It is very very easy, thanks to the fantasic tool: google.com you basically can find any useful information you want to look up.

Here is the link about estimation of Chinese nuclear weapons from academic research (out of politics), very nice article, even their data very scientific, as researchers, they claim many times in their reports that it still heavily underestimate the real number.
www.ucsusa.org...


Once again, your confusing production capability with actual number of weapons (in this case the even more restrictive category of ICBM's).

The US (and Russia) has thousands of TONS of plutonium and highly enriched uranium sitting in storage facilities. Does this mean that they have hundreds of thousands of warheads, or ICBM's? Absolutely not. It just means that they made it. And any responsible country will tell you that if you make fissile plutonium, you seperate it out and guard it. You may need it some day, and you sure as hell don't want someone else getting it.



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by Starwars51

Originally posted by proteinx
First of all, please, guys, How many of you really did little search before you post your opinion?It is very very easy, thanks to the fantasic tool: google.com you basically can find any useful information you want to look up.

Here is the link about estimation of Chinese nuclear weapons from academic research (out of politics), very nice article, even their data very scientific, as researchers, they claim many times in their reports that it still heavily underestimate the real number.
www.ucsusa.org...


Once again, your confusing production capability with actual number of weapons (in this case the even more restrictive category of ICBM's).



Did you read it or not before you typed your words?
THEY CALCULATED THE COMSUMPTION OF THOSE MATERIALS AND DEDUCEd THE PRODUCTION IN LAST 20 YEARS. OKAY!?

THAT IS NOT POTENTIAL!! THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAVE BEEN DONE!

can you read? if you can, can you read before talk, please? I know some American have reading problem even compared to non-english speaking person like me. If that is the case for you, forget it, then.


[edit on 21-1-2005 by proteinx]

[edit on 21-1-2005 by proteinx]



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 01:04 AM
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Originally posted by proteinx

Did you read it or not before you typed your words?
THEY CALCULATED THE COMSUMPTION OF THOSE MATERIALS AND DEDUCEd THE PRODUCTION IN LAST 20 YEARS. OKAY!?

THAT IS NOT POTENTIAL!! THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAVE BEEN DONE!

can you read? if you can, can you read before talk, please? I know some American have reading problem even compared to non-english speaking person like me. If that is the case for you, forget it, then.



Now I know what that little "ignore" button is for, people who cannot seem to comprehend the simplest ideas - like just because you make plutonium does not mean you make missiles...... And then resort to childish name calling to try and make their (ignorant) point.

I'm beginning to realize that "proteinX" is more likely a 10 year old in his bedroom somewhere in Alabama trying to sound "cool" than a native chineese person.



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 02:25 AM
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"Regarding the laser weapon, I have to make you guys really disappointed about American real laser weapons. There are general two ways to make a strong laser: from chemical reaction or from stimulation of solid state. Many countries can do it with the first method. But the downside is that you have to carry a large container of chemicals to get it activated then shot a strong "laser", did you guys notice that the so called laser weapons shot from a American jet fighter? man, that plane is more like a cargo plane. It is not realistic for air force at all. Not mention for satellite, you have to make the satellite very large and financially it is impossible. All these showing around from US airforce are just "show". "

then i guess i better have a word with my local member of parliament because Canada has had talks with US about that system and it enveloping Canada as well. Just like the mssile system is going to.

www.jang.com.pk...

take note to where it says "The US missile defence system, to be in place by the year 2004, does not include the installation of weapons in space."

weapons in space? maybe lasers?



[edit on 21-1-2005 by Tahlen]

[edit on 21-1-2005 by Tahlen]



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 02:34 AM
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"about nuke exchange? we all die. But we have hundreds millions Chinese scattered around the world linked with 5000-year Chinese culture. What about Americans after nuke exchange? Is there anybody in the world then claim they are American anymore? No! cause American are all fundamentally immigrants, if the new continent over, then just stay where they were originally from, who the hell care about so called America then? Which means: American as a native race will die out in history, but, around the world, in any street, you will still see Chinese who speak Chinese and celebrate Chinese new year."

Im North "American", nonetheless still American

And do you honestly think that US citizens only live in the US? speaking of doing research maybe it is time you did some.

[edit on 21-1-2005 by Tahlen]



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 06:09 AM
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60,000 US citizens reside in India on the last vote count..

And IMHO , proteinx is very much chinese, but I still haven't figured out where he resides...Alabama is a start though..."Sweet home Alabama"!!


[edit on 21-1-2005 by Daedalus3]



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by Tahlen
Im North "American", nonetheless still American

And do you honestly think that US citizens only live in the US? speaking of doing research maybe it is time you did some.

[edit on 21-1-2005 by Tahlen]



You didnot get my point, my point is not saying whether there is American living other countries or not, of course, there are many, in shanghai alone, there are hundreds thousands, I was the only Chinese engineer when I worked for an American company long time ago.

My point is: when USA as a country vanished, those offspring of American living in other countries will not recoginz themselves as American anymore, the reason is there is no strong culture linkage at all, They will just be merged into local society or become what they ancestor were, German or Frechman or whatever...
From that point, American and America die together.

My indian friend, did you get chance to yell to some American in your country today that: Hi, American, we are same race! I am white too even I look dark! you know, studies have shown I am white, can you give me a ride for your space shuttle?



[edit on 21-1-2005 by proteinx]



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by proteinx


My indian friend, did you get chance to yell to some American in your country today that: Hi, American, we are same race! I am white too even I look dark! you know, studies have shown I am white, can you give me a ride for your space shuttle?

[edit on 21-1-2005 by proteinx]


No, but we did talk about the prospects of several astray mentally deficient chicoms, if you must know..!!

And if you must know the north of India which was populated by the likes of the early aryans (Indus valley civilization) and Alexander, are gentically related to the Europeans..not the darker southern dravidians though..


[edit on 21-1-2005 by Daedalus3]



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 12:56 PM
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Alright maybe this post will end this rather long debate.

This is because Russia and China have nothing to threaten the U.S. militarily with except nuclear missiles. Without nuclear missiles, China, Russia and the rest of the world are completely at the military mercy of the United States, which now enjoys overwhelming non-nuclear military superiority on Earth, while maintaining a launch-ready nuclear missle strike force capable of annihilating any nation anywhere.



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 07:06 PM
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LMAO!!


Yeah, China has nothing to fight the American army with, only a well trained army thats about 3 times the size of the American one, which is used to the terrian, and China can always get more conscripts... And China only has about 1.3 BILLION people, most of which would fight off America.

Yeah, Thats no defence...


Typical "Oh we're AMERICAN nobody can beat us because we're AMERICAN!" attitude... Never Under Estimate your Enemy.. ESPECIALLY on their home soil!



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 08:31 PM
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As I've said before, there is no way in the hell the United States would risk in setting troops on the Chinese territory when we are outnumbered by 1.3 billion Chinese citizens there. Once again, we will be using weapons of mass destruction. Thats nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, top secret weaponry, etc. All of those imaginary weapons that you guys think of the most will most likely come true and be used against China. The United States will put sweat and blood in this war, but it will be won by the Americans. Using nuclear weapons will wipe out a largempart of the population. Including the aftermath of radiation can kill another 100,000 or more. esepcially ones who are not treated properly. You have several of poor citizens in China and many of them will suffer due to the aftermath. You are also talking about hospitals being inundated of people flowing in and trying to get treated. It will be a grand mess! Now you mean to tell me that this cannot happen? That's bull! The U.S. will strike China where it will hurt. And if we hit them enough, not only we will reduce the population of China, but wipe China off of the world map if we have to. We have the capability to do that. And we will do it if we have to.



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