U.S. vs. China

Originally posted by Leveller
I honestly believe that China is the US version of the Arab's Israel bogeyman.
Americans seem to be raised with a deep fear of China and are very suspicious of it.

They seem to forget that the only time that they have ever come into adversity with China, it was the US in China's back garden.
China has sat there for thousands of years, silently doing it's own thing. It has had to keep itself isolationist to protect itself from the bull# that surrounds it in the rest of the world. The only expansion it has ever been interested in interested in, is to either reclaim land that it once held or to safeguard it's borders.

The USA would never invade China. Why? Because it wouldn't have a single ally left in the world. The rest of the world hasn't been brought up to despise or fear China in the way that the average US citizen seems to have been raised.

I don't think the U.S. has been brought up to despise China SPECIFICALLY, but you are right, they have been brought up to despise any nation that does not walk in any line similar to the U.S.

American culture looks down upon people who are very different, whether it's physically, psychologically, or belief-wise. For example, Americans are very quick to judge people who present new ways of thinking, just because it's "not the American way."

The dragon is VERY lethal. The fact that they are out of what we call the "norm" means they have things that may not suit us very well. It is cause for concern.

Wars aren't always the result of rhetoric or beliefs. Sometimes, it's how straight of a line you walk.

American Mad Man,

The dude is Austrailian (or at least he says he live there). I think he would know whether or not they would accomodate U.S. forces.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
American Mad Man,

The dude is Austrailian (or at least he says he live there). I think he would know whether or not they would accomodate U.S. forces.

Well, then by that logic since I am American, I know what US policy would be on every issue

That is the worst logic I have ever heard. What happens when another Australian disagrees with him? Because they both are Australian which one wins that arguement? You need to rethink your line of reasoning here buddy.

The FACT is that the US ALREADY has bases in Australia. Bases that ALREADY have the neccisary security and facilities to field both the B-2 and F-117, not to mention a host of other aircraft. If the US and China were to get in a war, Australia would MOST CERTAINLY be involved. Quite simply because China actually threatens them. Look at a map/globe. An imperialistic China would put Australia among their top 5 targets. Australian military minds know this, and so would not only allow, but HOPE that US forces would be based out of Australia for increased security.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo

Originally posted by Leveller
I honestly believe that China is the US version of the Arab's Israel bogeyman.
Americans seem to be raised with a deep fear of China and are very suspicious of it.

They seem to forget that the only time that they have ever come into adversity with China, it was the US in China's back garden.
China has sat there for thousands of years, silently doing it's own thing. It has had to keep itself isolationist to protect itself from the bull# that surrounds it in the rest of the world. The only expansion it has ever been interested in interested in, is to either reclaim land that it once held or to safeguard it's borders.

The USA would never invade China. Why? Because it wouldn't have a single ally left in the world. The rest of the world hasn't been brought up to despise or fear China in the way that the average US citizen seems to have been raised.

I don't think the U.S. has been brought up to despise China SPECIFICALLY, but you are right, they have been brought up to despise any nation that does not walk in any line similar to the U.S.

American culture looks down upon people who are very different, whether it's physically, psychologically, or belief-wise. For example, Americans are very quick to judge people who present new ways of thinking, just because it's "not the American way."

The dragon is VERY lethal. The fact that they are out of what we call the "norm" means they have things that may not suit us very well. It is cause for concern.

Wars aren't always the result of rhetoric or beliefs. Sometimes, it's how straight of a line you walk.

This is pathetic. No one in America that isn't thinking about military hypotheticals (ie - over 299 million people) is scared of China. No one in America is brought up to despise any country that does not walk in the same line. This is a foriegn perception. We do hate those that threaten us and we do dislike those that oppose us taking action against those that threaten us.

Your comment about how the US looks down on people who are different is just plain IGNORANT! Look at the US! There are more different types of people here then anywhere else in the world you idiot! You obviously have some kind of personal dislike for the US, maybe you were brought up by parents who were missinformed, maybe you have the wrong perception because whatever media you watch dislikes the US - hell, you may even be American and hate your own country (BTW - if this is the case, get a 1 way ticket out please) - but regardless, your statements are without basis. Thinking that the US is not open "to new ways of thinking" is laughable. The US is the melting pot of the world - we allow all thought, and when it works we addapt it. How do you think the US became the worlds only super power? This could be the worst post I have ever seen

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
American Mad Man,

The dude is Austrailian (or at least he says he live there). I think he would know whether or not they would accomodate U.S. forces.

Well, then by that logic since I am American, I know what US policy would be on every issue

That is the worst logic I have ever heard. What happens when another Australian disagrees with him? Because they both are Australian which one wins that arguement? You need to rethink your line of reasoning here buddy.

You read far too much into things.

I was not talking about logic. I just said he's in Austrailia, so he would know some things better than you.

I was not talking about logic. I just said he's in Austrailia, so he would know some things better than you.

Apparently not, because we have bases, like I said before, already in place in order to launch stealth bombing raids on1)Russia 2)China 3)N. Korea and any one else we might need to. Thats my point - the only way we wouldn't be using them is if China destroyed them.

American Mad Man,

All I'll say is that America is a xenophobic nation (who isn't?). We are tolerant, yes. But one change in culture and everyone has a fit. Remember the little cultural revolution of the 1960s? America spazzed over it because it promoted "doing your own thing" and that was considered evil at the time. It's fortunate that there were so many people like that that we eventually came (more like dropped in on our heads) to accept it. It was not a threat, it was a way of life and America condemned and tried to squelch it. Why? Because it wasn't the "American way" of dignity, good reputation, sanctity, etc. How much more xenophobic can you get?

If you think I hate America, that's fine. Fortunately, I don't tell people to leave the country, due to my good nature. But as usual, what you say doesn't matter much. I love America (maybe not the government) and there's nothing you can do about it. America has the great cities of Atlanta and Los Angeles, baseball, PC games, and the U.S. Marine Corps. All of these big things that make life worthwhile are from or only in America.

So either we get back to the subject at hand, or you can bail.

[Edited on 15-4-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

[Edited on 15-4-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Originally posted by American Mad Man
This is pathetic. No one in America that isn't thinking about military hypotheticals (ie - over 299 million people) is scared of China. No one in America is brought up to despise any country that does not walk in the same line. This is a foriegn perception. We do hate those that threaten us and we do dislike those that oppose us taking action against those that threaten us.

Well, I don't think you were replying directly to my post but to the guy who quoted me. And I don't entirely agree with him but then nor do I totally discard his comments.
I was over in the US when the spyplane was brought down a couple of years ago. I seem to remember that the US media blew it all out of proportion and people were up in arms. From the reaction of people in Miami, where I was staying at the time, a foriegner would have got the impression that this spyplane had been brought down over US territory and not close to mainland China where it was operating.

I also seem to remember a poll held at the time of this incident and China came out as the main opponent of the US - even over Saddam. Something like 75% of US citizens viewed China as a threat and as an enemy of the US. Only 27% of Americans saw China as even being remotely friendly.

www.cnn.com...

Granted, this incident was over 3 years ago, but from what I've seen in my last couple of visits, views seem to have polarised.

I do agree that Americans aren't brought up to despise other countries, but they are brought up to fear some. And unfortunately, fear leads to hatred.

[Edited on 15-4-2004 by Leveller]

I think many Americans are trying really hard not to dislike China. I think most of us know that to be at odds with China would just be a bad thing for the world. Unlike the way we felt about the Soviet Union, we don't think of China as the Evil Empire. Having seen how the USSR just fell apart and became several something elses, we can hope China will change from within. Those old enough will remember how we watched Tienamen Square and saw the yearning that some there have for our style of Freedom.

The absolute best thing for us was China re-absorbing Hong Kong. Not sure if it's good for Hong Kong, but it can't help but encourage capitalism in the rest of the country. We can also score some points with China if we don't get too crazy with N. Korea as they do their best to piss us off.

The US have some formible and particularly nasty anti-personal weapons. I mean downright disgusting stuff. Not to mention the "high ground" (space) and technology. If it is a serious war at this time (2004) China would fall.

BTW, all you poster cautioning on Chinese Dragon, Billions of people, etc. One question.....

...who has the Chinese dominated over the last 400 years?
Great Britian? Japan? North Vietnam? India? The huns? hmm?

Answer: NOBODY

You make an interesting point. They don't seem to have been very Imperialistic compared to others have they? They have had their moments though.

Much of their war history seems to be pretty internal or defensive in nature.

Could we please not call it a spy plane. It was a EP-3 is a surveillance aircraft. Also, I think we would be able to defeat China, look at WWII Japan did it pretty successfully.

look lets chill out for a second folks i know im british so i can have no say in this but i have to say this
america has the firepower and the tech to beat china
BUT china has the numbers and has some good tech so they would actually be able to get a stalemate
basicaly

During WWII China was an ally against Japan and we gave a good bit of money and weapons to the Nationalist government and they were looking to us to help keep Stalin's Russia from coming down on them after the war. Then of course the communist revolution happened and it didn't quite work out like that.

In conflicts we've had with China since then, it really has been through surrogates it seems. Korea and Vietnam both were really doing the will of China wern't they? I could be wrong about that, but that is kinda how it looks from here.

I just did a bit of research. There are currently no US bases of any kind in any part of Australia. There was talk of establishing one but the US Defence Department dismissed it saying that i wouldn't happen for a while.

Also as I earlier said, I don't think many countries would want to invade Australia. All you get is a mass of desert with a few cities and towns along the coastline. NO strategic gain in any way. What are you gonna use it for? Invade New Zealand? and it's too hard to ship a lot of men and equipment to Australia without getting harrassed or destroyed by the RAAF. The most any country would do I believe would be to isolate Australia and force it into some sort of diplomatic or economic tight spot.

and Madman, I'm curious where you get your info on American bases in Australia. Any links?

Here's a few links concerning US military bases in Australia.

US Department of Defence Page
www.defenselink.mil...

Australian Newspaper
www.theage.com.au...

ASEAN site
www.aseanfocus.com...




[Edited on 15-4-2004 by D]

Originally posted by mtsquad
BTW, all you poster cautioning on Chinese Dragon, Billions of people, etc. One question.....

...who has the Chinese dominated over the last 400 years?
Great Britian? Japan? North Vietnam? India? The huns? hmm?

Answer: NOBODY

That is insightful. However, China has never been a true nation of conquest. Considering itself the "Middle Kingdom," it thought it was all there was and there was none other. A true isolationalist state, albeit it's a more "I'm better than you" sort, not like the U.S. isolationalism policy of the 1930s, where we simply said, "We're not going to stick our nose where it don't belong."

So I don't think you can say they haven't dominated ANYBODY, because they simply haven't tried.

Leveller,

Thanks for clarifying. I may in fact have blown it a little out of proportion.

But I still say that America does not like change. It tolerates the idea of change, but not change (in the sense of a big cultural, political, religious) itself.

If there was a big Islam revolution in America (meaning a huge revival and a large chunk of Americans becoming Muslim, do you think everyone will accept that kind of change? I know Texas and new York certainly won't.

Ambient Sound,

I think China is a country that earns automatic respect. Just look at their culture. One of the oldest in history. No other nation (besides the United States) has made as much progress as China has in history. They led in arts and sciences for a LONG time, and they were quite superior to even the Egyptian and Roman Empire. The only major difference is China remained complacent within itself. And for a nation that is by-and-large a dictatorship (more of an oligarchy), it still gives it's people a lot more economic freedom than over half the world. It's ironic because it makes progress despite the fact it's culture and politics doesn't necessarily support moving forward, rather staying put.

I'm glad you mentioned Tianamen Square. For all the good things Deng Xiaoping has done, people seem to forget that he was responsible for slaughtering close to 1,000 Chinese citizens. And here we are calling Saddam Hussein an evil man for murdering countless people, yet we leave Deng off the hook because he strengthened China's economic ties with America.

Originally posted by D
I just did a bit of research. There are currently no US bases of any kind in any part of Australia. There was talk of establishing one but the US Defence Department dismissed it saying that i wouldn't happen for a while.

Also as I earlier said, I don't think many countries would want to invade Australia. All you get is a mass of desert with a few cities and towns along the coastline. NO strategic gain in any way. What are you gonna use it for? Invade New Zealand? and it's too hard to ship a lot of men and equipment to Australia without getting harrassed or destroyed by the RAAF. The most any country would do I believe would be to isolate Australia and force it into some sort of diplomatic or economic tight spot.

and Madman, I'm curious where you get your info on American bases in Australia. Any links?

Here's a few links concerning US military bases in Australia.

US Department of Defence Page
www.defenselink.mil...

Australian Newspaper
www.theage.com.au...

ASEAN site
www.aseanfocus.com...




[Edited on 15-4-2004 by D]

They are not US bases, but Australian bases which we use

It is a very common practice with our UK english speaking allies as well. We do not set up our own bases, but rather we use theirs and put the equipment there to support our planes.

I hope I clarified that, and did not mean to imply that their were US only bases over there, as there is no need. The australian government is more then accomidating.

As for why invade Australia, it has a great deal of natural resorces. Plus, it is simply "in their neck of the woods." An imperialistic country would want it if for no other reason then for domination over there own are.

As for it having no strategic value - I believe the fact that we are even discussing the US launching sorties from australia would be enough for them to think of it as a strategic location. Think about it.