U.S. vs. China

This is turning to a India vs China war.

let me say this. If India goes to war with China... Russia will not have any part of it. Russia has a stratigic partnership with China also Russia will not help anyone when they know heavy causlties are involved. Russia is not a blind child with a big stick. They dont pick fights. Russia will do what is best for them. They will supply weapons to both sides at a good cost. And their economy and influence will grow with it.

Out,
Russian

Originally posted by Daedalus3


China is capable of defending itself,can influence regional affairs and all of the above,besides being democratic.Now,my veggie eating friend,if you noticed,you are changing the topic from US vs China to US+India vs China.Either way,the war is highly unlikely,but if you have any other OPINIONS,feel free to put it in the thread about "liberating" Tibet.


China is democratic?!! Im sorry I must be in the wrong dimension!!

[edit on 4-11-2004 by Daedalus3]

Please dude,i said BESIDES being democratic,meaing defending itself,can influence affairs and all that,but not democratic.Maybe my english is a little bad,but i come from China and english is not my native language anyway.

Originally posted by Russian
This is turning to a India vs China war.

let me say this. If India goes to war with China... Russia will not have any part of it. Russia has a stratigic partnership with China also Russia will not help anyone when they know heavy causlties are involved. Russia is not a blind child with a big stick. They dont pick fights. Russia will do what is best for them. They will supply weapons to both sides at a good cost. And their economy and influence will grow with it.

Out,
Russian

There.I wanted to say that but i didn't know how to put it.Russia is no longer the Soviet union,and cannot slug it out like WWII

The Sunburn - The Awesome Nuclear Anti-Ship Missile
The Weapon That Could
Defeat The United States
By Mark Gaffney
11-2-4

Last July, they dubbed it operation Summer Pulse: a simultaneous mustering of US Naval forces, world wide, that was unprecedented. According to the Navy, it was the first exercise of its new Fleet Response Plan (FRP), the purpose of which was to enable the Navy to respond quickly to an international crisis.......


Related link:

www.rense.com...

The combination of this lethal ASM and AIP powered subs would allow nations like China to overwhelm USN carrier battlegroups in time of crises thus neutralizing them from the equation.


[edit on 4-11-2004 by psteel]

Originally posted by Russian
This is turning to a India vs China war.

let me say this. If India goes to war with China... Russia will not have any part of it. Russia has a stratigic partnership with China also Russia will not help anyone when they know heavy causlties are involved. Russia is not a blind child with a big stick. They dont pick fights. Russia will do what is best for them. They will supply weapons to both sides at a good cost. And their economy and influence will grow with it.

Out,
Russian

I think the invasion of afghanistan (1979) was a blind child with a big stick poking a coiled cobra...

And yes the russians' economy is mainly surviving on weapons sales.But I disagree on your point of russia sitting on the fence on this one...First they'll try their level best to stave off a conflict, but if the going gets tough then russia cannot sit on the sidelines. Plus in the new rearrangement of strategic partners, where the US is trying to cosy up to the Indians the russians wouldn't want that to go out of hand.

To everyone who believes that US will win the war against China.

I think NOT, every war that China had been in, I have not seen one defeat yet. As to USA, during the Korea war, USA was the most power Nation, and belived that they will take over the North with the South Korea trops, even though after China has warned them not to cross the line. And in the end 300,000+ chinese army crush 30,000 US trop+ south trops and push them back to the South. Not just that, back then China was a 3rd world country, and US was the most powerful military nation.
( When the US soilders saw the 300,000 red army charging down the mountain, the US trops drop their weapons and supply and ran). So enough said, never underestimate the chinese. And for anyone who thinks that there will be a nuke war, then you better read some of COWlan's post.



[edit on 5-11-2004 by robert605]

[edit on 5-11-2004 by robert605]

[edit on 5-11-2004 by robert605]

Yeah and In korea USA had tanks and battle ships while all the Chinese had was soldiers in thin jackets without even automatic weapons.

And Russian thanx for proving my point where Russia will stay out.

Yeah, thanx for the extra information. COWlan

Why does everyone here think that China is even strong militarly? You do becouse China has a huge population. The think is that most of that population lives in absolute poverty, and its defence buget is 46 billion (USA's is 362 billion), plus the Chinese military, contradictory to what people asume, is prety small.

[edit on 5-11-2004 by Pavel]

1st of all only the country side and the farmer's that don't have lots of money, and most of the city are all rich, ShangHai is the most richest city in China and it surpass HongKong's economy in 1999. China seems to be strong because they have prove them self in the past war. And i don't know where you get your information on the budget, because i have seem many many different numbers, so you can't be sure. I bet chinese military spent more then it seems, they just won't tell no one about the real numbers. And the other reason why the US has a high budget is because they goes to war all the time with every countires they don't like. For example: rebuilt Irqa 2-3 Billion. homeland security, f-22, f35...ect they all coast alots, you know.

[edit on 5-11-2004 by robert605]

[edit on 5-11-2004 by robert605]

If the US has intel on chinese nukes and takes 90% of then out before anyhting gts out of hand..i mean pre-emptively then...thats that!! that war is over. China even though it may have brave soldiers and patriotic people etc. etc. will go on the back foot.
They will not want to lose anything more, conventionally or in nuclear terms. They have to think of salvaging for the future.
Hence Immediate ceasefire offered by china!!The same goes for any country, except Russia maybe. They have too many nukes to neutralise.If US intel is poor then they could go into another vietnam...

Okay I have been reading this thread for a couple hours now and I am not going to finish it so I would just like to state a couple of things.

1.I read an article some where (I cant remember where) that said that China has developed laser weapons. Lasers that can be fitted on to a tanks or air planes that can shoot down incoming missiles and nukes. they said that these new weapons will be in service with in the next couple of years.
I also know that the US are working on similar weapons(thanks to the Discovery Channel)
2. Some one said that China imports most of its weapons from Russia.That use to be true but now since the last two gulfwars and the war in afganistan China has rapidly been developing there own weapons to match US made weapons.
3.When the worlds economy was in trouble a couple of years ago when SARS was around (im talking about the US and the European im not sure about Japans).China had the strongest in the world at that time
4.Taiwan has stated there statistics in a China invasion of there country and it was stated that they would only put up a five day fight before China will have total control of there country.
5. You people have forgotten that China also has submarines patroling there sea borders and the rest of the Pacific. Dont you think if the US attemts an invasion that there submarines and the rest of there navy would not destroy must of the American fleet after all the US does not have the Strongest Navy in the world I beleive that the Brits have that one.
6. THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THE UNITED STATES WOULD EVER WIN A WAR WITH CHINA. Mainly because the US does not have the founding or the capability to wage a massive strike against the biggest military in the world(I did not say strongest).
7. The only way that the US will win is if they have allies. They cannot win 1 on 1 and even if they do have allies and its only China vs the allies it would be extremely hard to win. But if China has allies such as Russia,India, or North Korea then there would be no way the US led coalition would win.
8. Also watch out for a close tie between China and India cause if those 2 countrys decide to take over the world it will happen no matter what you think.

Originally posted by Killak420
Okay I have been reading this thread for a couple hours now and I am not going to finish it so I would just like to state a couple of things.

1.I read an article some where (I cant remember where) that said that China has developed laser weapons. Lasers that can be fitted on to a tanks or air planes that can shoot down incoming missiles and nukes. they said that these new weapons will be in service with in the next couple of years.
I also know that the US are working on similar weapons(thanks to the Discovery Channel)
2. Some one said that China imports most of its weapons from Russia.That use to be true but now since the last two gulfwars and the war in afganistan China has rapidly been developing there own weapons to match US made weapons.
3.When the worlds economy was in trouble a couple of years ago when SARS was around (im talking about the US and the European im not sure about Japans).China had the strongest in the world at that time
4.Taiwan has stated there statistics in a China invasion of there country and it was stated that they would only put up a five day fight before China will have total control of there country.
5. You people have forgotten that China also has submarines patroling there sea borders and the rest of the Pacific. Dont you think if the US attemts an invasion that there submarines and the rest of there navy would not destroy must of the American fleet after all the US does not have the Strongest Navy in the world I beleive that the Brits have that one.
6. THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THE UNITED STATES WOULD EVER WIN A WAR WITH CHINA. Mainly because the US does not have the founding or the capability to wage a massive strike against the biggest military in the world(I did not say strongest).
7. The only way that the US will win is if they have allies. They cannot win 1 on 1 and even if they do have allies and its only China vs the allies it would be extremely hard to win. But if China has allies such as Russia,India, or North Korea then there would be no way the US led coalition would win.
8. Also watch out for a close tie between China and India cause if those 2 countrys decide to take over the world it will happen no matter what you think.

1. I read an article some where (I cant remember where) that said that China has developed laser weapons. Lasers that can be fitted on to a tanks or air planes that can shoot down incoming missiles and nukes. they said that these new weapons will be in service with in the next couple of years.

Really? Show me a proving article and I will believe.



4.Taiwan has stated there statistics in a China invasion of there country and it was stated that they would only put up a five day fight before China will have total control of there country.

Taiwan yah maby, Taiwan and USA. The opposite way around



5. You people have forgotten that China also has submarines patroling there sea borders and the rest of the Pacific. Dont you think if the US attemts an invasion that there submarines and the rest of there navy would not destroy must of the American fleet after all the US does not have the Strongest Navy in the world I beleive that the Brits have that one.

Okay, you think we havn't though about that? The British have gone though many wars with us, you think they wont take them out? USA and Britian have experience, China hasn't had a recent war.




6. THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THE UNITED STATES WOULD EVER WIN A WAR WITH CHINA. Mainly because the US does not have the founding or the capability to wage a massive strike against the biggest military in the world(I did not say strongest).



In a non-nuke war, after out Anti ballistic missle systems are up? We were in the GREAT DEPRESSION and won WW2 with our allies. Both sides will be patriotic and start building and supporting the army.
It brings a point, Rods of god will take out communications to disrupt the people of TV's and radios.

7. The only way that the US will win is if they have allies. They cannot win 1 on 1 and even if they do have allies and its only China vs the allies it would be extremely hard to win. But if China has allies such as Russia,India, or North Korea then there would be no way the US led coalition would win.

The best military in the world, taking on a lower level military? are you crazy 1 on 1? We have the experience to fight wars, China's last war was....


Heh, think about this, USA, BRITIAN, TAIWAN, SOUTH KOREA, JAPAN, AUSTRALIA, ISREAL, SPAIN, MABY FRANCE and GERMANY, and many other nations.




8. Also watch out for a close tie between China and India cause if those 2 countrys decide to take over the world it will happen no matter what you think.

Your joking right? China and India? First, USA and Britians airforce with B-2, Eurofighter, F-22 will wipe out there air, british sas and seals will destroy there command centers. Man the list goes on..

[edit on 10-11-2004 by Laxpla]

Originally posted by Killak4205. You people have forgotten that China also has submarines patroling there sea borders and the rest of the Pacific. Dont you think if the US attemts an invasion that there submarines and the rest of there navy would not destroy must of the American fleet after all the US does not have the Strongest Navy in the world I beleive that the Brits have that one.

I must recognize most of the Chinese Navy are old soviet things... They are modernizing it (quickly), but it's still outdated... Maybe in 10 years
And YES, US Navy is the best nowadays. Britain ruling the seas? This was in the XIX century

ah...the post is too long but interesting, so I will just read on page 12 for the moment and finish it later, I will post a thought first...

1. if you mean, if US is able to, yes, it is, its superior technology and mobility gives the insurance for US's first strike.
2. Yes, seems obvious answer, but I think you are asking if it is very effective for a total control of the situation and defines the defeat of the Chinese forces, I would say no.
3. Very effective, or I may say: the US forces are relying on those aircrafts and weaponaries, without them, they are no different, even weaker than China.
4. No, but almost everyone will participate and play their part in the war, in everyway possible, like the old times.
5. No, US is not able to do such a thing atm, it requires too much.

6. No one wants wars, US has too many factories outside the border, war will cost too much for international enterprises, the business giants would influence the politicians not to open a full scale war; and China is definitely a market with limitless potential, US doesn't take it, not many could refuse.
so either way, the world will be on China's side if the full-scale war happens.

On US aircrafts, China only need to create a radio silence combat range of 6000 sqr miles, most US aircraft would be blind and useless, then probably flood the air with small and annoying J-7s(including modified versions) and non-pilot J-6s, I think the regional defence could be achieved if they want to fight.

Or they can set the ground full with sams (I heard chinese missiles are pretty good), force the US troops to land and push ground attacks, then arrange organized military assault with civilian guerrilla warfare, could be effective, ground assault in China is a bad idea anyway. There is a new missile that flies 50 meters off sea level with Mach 2, i forgot the name, supposely undetectable by radar, it could be used for pacific fleet, and some nuke subs if not attacking US homeland, but it is for regional defence anyway.

China's national budget is not as good as US, but their living condition tolerance (pardon me for my unprofessional expression) should be far better than the US public, for example, no health insurance, no jobs and no personal possessions is OK for Chinese, at least they went through the communist sharing environment, with no tax and no income, US didn't.

about guerrila warfare, it is different from conventional warfare too, you go into a room with ambush, 8 guys come from 8 different directions with even bare fists (not likely, at least a shoe or something hard), I don't care what you have in your hands, you are down for sure, best thing you can do is to yell and warn others before your throat is cut. Same thing if you have 10 guys with modern weapons facing 100 enemies with home made grenades and guns, landscape is only their advantage, never surprised if enemies jump out of walls or funiture.

nuke weapons would not be considered because neither US or China has the ability to intercept more than 200 multihead nuke missiles at the same time, it simply means the end of the world.(nuclear winter, everything sunk into the sea, etc) but neutron weapons are not in the restricting area, emp and laser guided weapons could be used, mid-range and short-range missiles are most frequently be used.(which means US doesn't have many advantages)

I will write some more later...

[edit]
reading to page 18, seeing a lot of understanding people about Chinese culture and chinese defensive strategy. praise for that.

It will be lucky for the US to find half of the missile silos located in China, considering China has the ultimate experience of guerilla warfare, and it is a place too big to cover with a few M1A2 tank groups and F22s. Search and destroy with ground forces is the best way to clean out the hidden corners, but it is the most risky as well. 9,326,410 sq km for China, we can divided it by ten as fairly populated area and somewhat important hit targets, how many bombs do you have to drop to make a decent damage to the Chinese? Missiles are expensive, it is too economically ineffcient to use them; a lot of the Chinese military bases are simple yet effective, so sometimes it costs more to destroy a base than the base costs, makes it a difficult decision even if you do take control of the area. Would you launch a 20mil cruise missile at a 250K USD unloaded nuclear silo site? Basically the Chinese forces will have no hard points, no important targets, no conventional commanding center visible as such, makes it "no way as a way", force the US to go in and deep, drop their technology behind and fight their war, you probably have to burn a forest to see which tree is shooting RPGs at the apache,lol.

I don't think China will have any ally or any ally that is reliable, it is their war, fighting on their own will be their first consideration as preparation for the worst. Russia would rather sell their weapons to China at that time to make profit, NK will use this as an excuse to get their nukes, maybe the rest will give some international gossips.

If Taiwan is the case, maybe a battle between US forces and Chinese forces is possible, however, China will try its best to keep the fight short and take control of taiwan before the US forces arrive, it is not a hard task for the chinese, but it is for the US to travel all the way from the pacific. with all those high-tech oil-swallowing monsters shipped over, US gains nothing in short term and long term perspective, that's what the capitalists don't want to do. If it has to come to this, Taiwan will have no resistance against the vast Chinese forces, their technology is not more advanced, but much more reliable and well-digested than the taiwanese. I want to laugh at the IDF if it is OK, it has a mower engine. If China launch an attack well planned enough in monday morning, chinese mainland soldiers could have their tea in the second afternoon in taipei.

Budget, again, it is biased comparation anyway. Let me explain with some simple examples, US builds F22, F15, F18 and F16s, F117s, China builds J-7, J-8, J-10 and FC1s, the price between these wares are huge, does it mean it is less? Chinese military pays less, spend less, cost less, the government don't have to pay dentist insurance and college money to the soldiers, divide that with with 1/8 to US dollars and cheap labors to do those things, I don't think the Chinese is short all that much. Chinese living condition is more tolerable than US forces as well, it is simply a low-consuming army. China is communism, so it doesn't promote spend-in-advance to expand the economy like capitalists, the government controls the railroad and mailboxes, so the chinese doesn't need a huge national debt to control the economy indirectly, they can influence the economy anyway they want, debt doesn't mean owing others money in macroeconomics, it means how much money the government is able to control and influence the economy indirectly, however, too much debt is a problem.

[edit on 12-11-2004 by plutonian]

^^^And do you have a different perspective after you read the whole entire full length thread??!!

I said I have read only 12p/26p, if which I posted said nothing new, I apologize for the time reading.

Originally posted by Laxpla

Originally posted by Killak420
Okay I have been reading this thread for a couple hours now and I am not going to finish it so I would just like to state a couple of things.

1.I read an article some where (I cant remember where) that said that China has developed laser weapons. Lasers that can be fitted on to a tanks or air planes that can shoot down incoming missiles and nukes. they said that these new weapons will be in service with in the next couple of years.
I also know that the US are working on similar weapons(thanks to the Discovery Channel)
2. Some one said that China imports most of its weapons from Russia.That use to be true but now since the last two gulfwars and the war in afganistan China has rapidly been developing there own weapons to match US made weapons.
3.When the worlds economy was in trouble a couple of years ago when SARS was around (im talking about the US and the European im not sure about Japans).China had the strongest in the world at that time
4.Taiwan has stated there statistics in a China invasion of there country and it was stated that they would only put up a five day fight before China will have total control of there country.
5. You people have forgotten that China also has submarines patroling there sea borders and the rest of the Pacific. Dont you think if the US attemts an invasion that there submarines and the rest of there navy would not destroy must of the American fleet after all the US does not have the Strongest Navy in the world I beleive that the Brits have that one.
6. THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THE UNITED STATES WOULD EVER WIN A WAR WITH CHINA. Mainly because the US does not have the founding or the capability to wage a massive strike against the biggest military in the world(I did not say strongest).
7. The only way that the US will win is if they have allies. They cannot win 1 on 1 and even if they do have allies and its only China vs the allies it would be extremely hard to win. But if China has allies such as Russia,India, or North Korea then there would be no way the US led coalition would win.
8. Also watch out for a close tie between China and India cause if those 2 countrys decide to take over the world it will happen no matter what you think.

1. I read an article some where (I cant remember where) that said that China has developed laser weapons. Lasers that can be fitted on to a tanks or air planes that can shoot down incoming missiles and nukes. they said that these new weapons will be in service with in the next couple of years.

Really? Show me a proving article and I will believe.



4.Taiwan has stated there statistics in a China invasion of there country and it was stated that they would only put up a five day fight before China will have total control of there country.

Taiwan yah maby, Taiwan and USA. The opposite way around

5. You people have forgotten that China also has submarines patroling there sea borders and the rest of the Pacific. Dont you think if the US attemts an invasion that there submarines and the rest of there navy would not destroy must of the American fleet after all the US does not have the Strongest Navy in the world I beleive that the Brits have that one.

Okay, you think we havn't though about that? The British have gone though many wars with us, you think they wont take them out? USA and Britian have experience, China hasn't had a recent war.




6. THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THE UNITED STATES WOULD EVER WIN A WAR WITH CHINA. Mainly because the US does not have the founding or the capability to wage a massive strike against the biggest military in the world(I did not say strongest).



In a non-nuke war, after out Anti ballistic missle systems are up? We were in the GREAT DEPRESSION and won WW2 with our allies. Both sides will be patriotic and start building and supporting the army.
It brings a point, Rods of god will take out communications to disrupt the people of TV's and radios.

7. The only way that the US will win is if they have allies. They cannot win 1 on 1 and even if they do have allies and its only China vs the allies it would be extremely hard to win. But if China has allies such as Russia,India, or North Korea then there would be no way the US led coalition would win.

The best military in the world, taking on a lower level military? are you crazy 1 on 1? We have the experience to fight wars, China's last war was....


Heh, think about this, USA, BRITIAN, TAIWAN, SOUTH KOREA, JAPAN, AUSTRALIA, ISREAL, SPAIN, MABY FRANCE and GERMANY, and many other nations.




8. Also watch out for a close tie between China and India cause if those 2 countrys decide to take over the world it will happen no matter what you think.

Your joking right? China and India? First, USA and Britians airforce with B-2, Eurofighter, F-22 will wipe out there air, british sas and seals will destroy there command centers. Man the list goes on..

[edit on 10-11-2004 by Laxpla]

1. wnd.com...


2. No. It would be impossible to take China in 5 days the US probably with enough people.

3. This war is between the US and China not Britain and China oh I forgot the US cant win a war unless it has allies.
4. Okay you won world war 2 because of Russia and thats it case close dont try to fight it. The Chinese will take out US servalance and Intercept all missile strikes towards them mean while anialating the US Navy with there subs at the same time they would also be invading Japan, Taiwan, Australia, Guam and Hawai for staging areas to counter attack the US on there own soil.
5. Examples of the best military in the world loosing to the weaker 3rd world military.........North Korea and the Vietnam war. Oh and I forgot to mention that the US won there Independance from the British who had the worlds greatest military at the time. So stop with the Ignorance.

6.HEH, Think about this China,India,Russia,North Korea half of the worlds population Rushing threw the boarders and stumping of the coastlines of these already devastated countrys after the first Nuclear,Biological and Chemical bombs are droped on there citys wiping out 3/4's of there population only to meet a weak resistance.

7.No im not with the first deployment of Nuclear weapons succesfully destroying the US, Britain and Pakistan the rest of the world shall fall to there knees and Except the New World as an Easton Dominated world.


The 21st century belongs to the Eastern nations the West has had its turn now its time for the East to reak havok on the World.

www.defenselink.mil...

I am sure many have read this, but I will post it just in case.