What is with all the "Christianity-Debunking" attempt threads?

Originally posted by Gigatronix
reply to post by Christ!

 

Goodness. You are just asking for it from both sides, Christian and Atheist alike.

Thank you!
You have just nailed the heart of my thread.
I am Christian, yet, I believe that if Jesus were here, he would try to help this ATS member named "Christ!" to see that he is not behaving in a "Christian" manner.
And, if Christ! is a Christian, and I am a Christian, is it right for non-Christians to condemn me, and attack my beliefs?
Jesus was not a raving madman that attacked people, terrified them and tried to strong-arm them into believing what he knew. As a matter of fact, as far as his actions go, in writing, the only time Jesus raged at anybody, was in defense of somebody, or in outrage of a person's evil actions. He was also capable of giving fiery oratory to the people that CAME TO HIM, and desired guidance.
The people he taught, came to him, after observing him, or hearing about him, and wanting what he had.
They WANTED what he had.


[edit on 23-2-2009 by SumnerKagan]

Originally posted by spacial
reply to post by Christ!

 

So it all just comes down to linguistics...?

Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed"
So are you talking when one of the Mary's anointed his feet or ...?
I'd say you mean by god.

Christ is more of a psychological term meaning "the mind that was in Christ Jesus".
Jesus had *charisma*.
His charisma came from his acceptance of "the truth".
The truth about Jesus is the same truth about everyone.
Not everyone has accepted that yet.
When one accepts the truth, his psychological state is transformed.
Transformed, one thinks with another mind.
This is what it means to "change your mind" [ie. repent]
A man has two options only.
He may think with the mind of gOd.
Or,
He may think with the mind of GoD.
gOd is not GoD
gOd is the gOd of this world...its "maker".
gOd is man's maker.
GoD is not man's maker.
GoD is the creator of the Son of GoD.
The Son of God is the truth about those who currently think with gOd.
When anyone thinks with gOd, he is belittled and ranked among a heirarchy.
When anyone thinks with GoD, he is magnified, and restored to his rightful place as equal heir to the Kingdom of God.

Who in the world can "annoint" such a one?
He can only annoint himSelf with his own joy.
Acceptance of Self is joyful, hence, charismatic.
Anybody can annoint oneself with his true Self.
This is simply to "know thySelf".

The Jews, on the other hand, have a concept of a savior that is other, and not self.
For some odd reason, this savior needs to be "annointed", as in, selected or pointed out.
This is not different from a coronation ceremony.
Who would coronate "the Messiah"?
All in all, the concept of selecting an individual to be special, and ranked among a heirarchy...this is a very worldly idea which leads to confusion.
Some tried to make Jesus just such a one, somehow annointing him with dozens, if not hundreds of snippets of Hebrew prophetic literature.
This is not any kind of annointing.
It is a delusion.

When you translate the term Christ to mean Reality, it becomes a "key" with which to interpret the rest of what he taught.
Reality translates also to "Truth".
Reality personified translates to "Son of God", or, "Kingdom of God".
Reality has attributes, primarily Oneness and Life.
Translate the term "world" to mean unreality.
Unreality is anti-christ in every way.
Once you incorporate these keys into your translations, Jesus begins to come alive, so-to-speak.
Translated this way, you can see what was "lost in translation", and pick up on the main themes of Jesus mission.
Jesus symbolized Reality.
The beginning of the world is the "death" of Reality.
Hence,
The world is a lie [illusion] that lives on the death of the Truth.
Get it?

Christ!






[edit on 23-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by SumnerKagan
The people he taught, came to him, after observing him, or hearing about him, and wanting what he had.
They WANTED what he had.

That pretty much sums it up.
He had joy...charisma!
He had miracles.
He also had what was already written upon their hearts.
So they "heard" him speak the truth.
This means the truth was already in their hearts.
The truthful know their own kind.

Christ!



[edit on 23-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by SumnerKagan

Originally posted by Gigatronix
reply to post by Christ!

 

Goodness. You are just asking for it from both sides, Christian and Atheist alike.

Thank you!
You have just nailed the heart of my thread.
I am Christian, yet, I believe that if Jesus were here, he would try to help this ATS member named "Christ!" to see that he is not behaving in a "Christian" manner.
And, if Christ! is a Christian, and I am a Christian, is it right for non-Christians to condemn me, and attack my beliefs?
Jesus was not a raving madman that attacked people, terrified them and tried to strong-arm them into believing what he knew. As a matter of fact, as far as his actions go, in writing, the only time Jesus raged at anybody, was in defense of somebody, or in outrage of a person's evil actions. He was also capable of giving fiery oratory to the people that CAME TO HIM, and desired guidance.
The people he taught, came to him, after observing him, or hearing about him, and wanting what he had.
They WANTED what he had.


[edit on 23-2-2009 by SumnerKagan]

the only time Jesus got angry was when he smashed up the church for the hypocrites so disgusted him. He could handle hanging out with sinners because they did not know any better but the people in the church that profited from spirituality in the name of god but did not really know, he hated them.
In the synpotics at the very least Jesus's whole message was the hypocrisy in the church.

I wonder wether he would be happy or angry should he enter your church today?

reply to post by Christ!


yea i get what you are saying.

I don't agree with it though...

Hope that philosophy works for you.

Originally posted by spacial
the only time Jesus got angry was when he smashed up the church for the hypocrites so disgusted him. He could handle hanging out with sinners because they did not know any better but the people in the church that profited from spirituality in the name of god but did not really know, he hated them.
In the synpotics at the very least Jesus's whole message was the hypocrisy in the church.

I wonder wether he would be happy or angry should he enter your church today?

Honestly, you can't trust everything you read just because it is in the bible. The gospels are novels taking license with the facts. Is it not apparent that the scribe here is projecting his own hatred on the priest class and having Jesus act out something of a fantasy? This story likely originates from a sayings gospel as a parable, and made into a scene. To Jesus, the temple is symbolic of mind. Jesus was concerned only with clearing out his own temple. He did this vigorously until the very concept of guilt was eradicated at is very root. By watching his own thoughts vigorously, Jesus turned the tables on the ego, which trades on guilt within the collective unconscious. Jesus turned the tables on the ego by forgiving anyone and everyone for anything and everything. This is how he turned the tables...with vigor and vigilance. Any other translation is not credible. Jesus was a master. Anyone who believes he did this does not understand what it means to be a master. The scribe who wrote it is absolutely not a master, and was not there. Many other words and deeds are shoved into Jesus mouth that utterly subvert his true frame of mind. These do a diservice, and virtually crucify the truth again.

Christ!

Originally posted by spacial
I wonder wether he would be happy or angry should he enter your church today?

Jesus would go into teaching and forgiveness mode.
Anger and forgiveness don't mix.
He would speak with authority, and probably be asked to leave.
He would likely not do any miracles because they are not for convincing unbelievers to believe.

Christ!

Originally posted by Christ!

Originally posted by spacial
the only time Jesus got angry was when he smashed up the church for the hypocrites so disgusted him. He could handle hanging out with sinners because they did not know any better but the people in the church that profited from spirituality in the name of god but did not really know, he hated them.
In the synpotics at the very least Jesus's whole message was the hypocrisy in the church.

I wonder wether he would be happy or angry should he enter your church today?

Honestly, you can't trust everything you read just because it is in the bible. The gospels are novels taking license with the facts. Is it not apparent that the scribe here is projecting his own hatred on the priest class and having Jesus act out something of a fantasy? This story likely originates from a sayings gospel as a parable, and made into a scene. To Jesus, the temple is symbolic of mind. Jesus was concerned only with clearing out his own temple. He did this vigorously until the very concept of guilt was eradicated at is very root. By watching his own thoughts vigorously, Jesus turned the tables on the ego, which trades on guilt within the collective unconscious. Jesus turned the tables on the ego by forgiving anyone and everyone for anything and everything. This is how he turned the tables...with vigor and vigilance. Any other translation is not credible. Jesus was a master. Anyone who believes he did this does not understand what it means to be a master. The scribe who wrote it is absolutely not a master, and was not there. Many other words and deeds are shoved into Jesus mouth that utterly subvert his true frame of mind. These do a diservice, and virtually crucify the truth again.

Christ!

I don't pretend to either know or not know the truth of the bible. I just know common sense when i see it and Jesus (in the synoptic) had common sense.
It makes little difference to me if it was true or a story. I watch movies now where i get something from it that changes me and that is all that matters.
I don't think you actually know either.
My point is not to discredit the bible.
My point is that if they are the rules by which Christians want to have discussions then i can play by those rules.

In other words, If some Christians want to say something like "why should people attack the church" I can say in return "why not, In the bible Jesus did just that"

If its good enough for Jesus , it's good enough for me.







[edit on 24-2-2009 by spacial]

Originally posted by Christ!

Originally posted by SumnerKagan
The people he taught, came to him, after observing him, or hearing about him, and wanting what he had.
They WANTED what he had.

That pretty much sums it up.
He had joy...charisma!
He had miracles.
He also had what was already written upon their hearts.
So they "heard" him speak the truth.
This means the truth was already in their hearts.
The truthful know their own kind.

Christ!



[edit on 23-2-2009 by Christ!]

sometimes you get it so so right.

Originally posted by spacial

If its good enough for Jesus , it's good enough for me.

[edit on 24-2-2009 by spacial]

I'm all for common sense.
I'm questioning whether this is common sense.
Jesus did not scribe those texts.
So you don't really know if they authentically represent him.
Can't really say if they are "good enough".
All you can really say is that those texts were good enough for the guides who decided to collect them into a collection.
And they are good enough for those who follow these guides.
The question remains, were these blind guides?
Their selections indicate that the majority were indeed blind at the time.
Their selections are so "crumby", those who rely on them are starving for "daily bread".
Their selections have driven not a few to insanity...beyond the status quo.
Their selections have turned many away from true salvation, and would make Jesus a stranger among ecclesiastics.
The NT texts do not, as a rule of thumb, provide enough information for anyone to be saved.
It's a miracle Mary Baker Eddy got as far as she did.
She did not get there without the Holy Spirit as interpretive Guide.

My attitude is, everything works together for GoD.
In other words, no matter what has happened, what seems to be happening, or what may happen, it will all work out in the end in God's favor.
And this is due to the work of the Holy Spirit.
As it works out in God's favor, the world of happenings comes to an end and passes away.
This is a promise.
The promise is inevitable.
Here is the word of God:
"History" never happened.
Time never was.
This is *knowledge*.
The world is a psychic trick...an illusion.

Common sense would accept the selected texts as indication of some states of mind...what some minds believed about what Jesus believed, said and/or did.
Better to read them as one would read Egyptian heiroglyphics. The NT scribes have collected some signs, sayings and symbols and assembled them according to their understanding. It is up to the reader to call upon the Sherlock Holmes "within" to get perspective. The bible is a crime scene. Somewhere between the "old" words, and the "new" words, "the Word" is crucified with many words. One must now read what truth bleeds through the red letter editions. Anyone willing to swallow all the words whole is also willing to swallow a large, stinky camel...and strain at a little common sense. And why? For fear!

The truth is there, but its mixed up like a mixed up Rubric's Cube. Jesus solved the puzzle, and passed it on. Each scribe "fixed" it according to his own mental filters, and dimly colored glasses. Anyone taking the texts at face value is simply asking to be decieved. But then, what else is new under the sun? Since before the beginning of time, we have been asking to be decieved. The body itself is a tool of self-deception. So its not like the NT texts are worse than any other deception. They reflect the status quo. The status quo is to confuse the mind about the truth. This has been going on since before time.

Christ!




[edit on 24-2-2009 by Christ!]

reply to post by Christ!


what i am saying is good enough for my heart...

Originally posted by spacial
reply to post by Christ!

 

what i am saying is good enough for my heart...

That's good enough.
The truth is written on your heart, because at your heart of hearts, you are Christ.
This can't be known till its known totally.
But you can feel it with an ever growing certainty.
And you can follow your certainty.
That's my kind of common sense.

Christ!

reply to post by Christ!


The Jesus I know is humble, not merely handing out Titles.

The Jesus I know is a teacher. Instructional, yet reserved. Guiding.

The Christ I know, Is the Jesus I describe, and surely as his word was taken, the Christ is not over here or over there. When he comes, we will know him, and while your words may be very logical and inclusive, Jesus Christ is Lord.

Jesus Christ is Lord. Not you, not anyone else. Through him, all can be saved. And it is not for you, to proclaim, appoint, or annoint any other as being The Christ other then that which is Good.

This brings to mind, a story lesser told regarding Jesus. Perhaps you Christ!, you would do well to read it.

The Gospel of the Perfect life

. AND there was a certain man who was blind from his birth. And he denied that there were such things as Sun, Moon, and Stars, or that colour existed. And they tried in vain to persuade him that other people saw them; and they led him to Jesus, and he anointed his eyes and made him to see. 11. And he greatly rejoiced with wonder and fear, and confessed that before he was blind. And now after this, he said, I see all, I know everything, I am god. 12. And Jesus again said unto him, How canst thou know all? Thou canst not see through the walls of thine house, nor read the thoughts of thy fellow men, nor understand the language of birds, or of beasts. Thou canst not even recall the events of thy former life, conception, or birth. 13. Remember with humility how much remains unknown to thee, yea, unseen, and doing so, thou mayest see more clearly.

Humilty brother..Humilty.

You are not the judge, nor the annointer. You are merely a mirror should yoiu choose to do so, of the Truth. The Truth, which is the life, is the way. And while you think you do well to let people think they are the Christ, how is it that you can judge that which you cannnot see?

Surely a true voice would speak in a true manner. And that who is not the judge, would realize their place.

Peace


[edit on 27-2-2009 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by HIFIGUY


Agreed my friend.

Mark 13:13 explains this phenomenon if you are a believer.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
reply to post by Christ!

 

The Jesus I know is humble, not merely handing out Titles.

The Jesus I know is a teacher. Instructional, yet reserved. Guiding.

The Christ I know, Is the Jesus I describe, and surely as his word was taken, the Christ is not over here or over there. When he comes, we will know him, and while your words may be very logical and inclusive, Jesus Christ is Lord.

Jesus Christ is Lord. Not you, not anyone else. Through him, all can be saved. And it is not for you, to proclaim, appoint, or annoint any other as being The Christ other then that which is Good.

This brings to mind, a story lesser told regarding Jesus. Perhaps you Christ!, you would do well to read it.

The Gospel of the Perfect life

. AND there was a certain man who was blind from his birth. And he denied that there were such things as Sun, Moon, and Stars, or that colour existed. And they tried in vain to persuade him that other people saw them; and they led him to Jesus, and he anointed his eyes and made him to see. 11. And he greatly rejoiced with wonder and fear, and confessed that before he was blind. And now after this, he said, I see all, I know everything, I am god. 12. And Jesus again said unto him, How canst thou know all? Thou canst not see through the walls of thine house, nor read the thoughts of thy fellow men, nor understand the language of birds, or of beasts. Thou canst not even recall the events of thy former life, conception, or birth. 13. Remember with humility how much remains unknown to thee, yea, unseen, and doing so, thou mayest see more clearly.

Humilty brother..Humilty.

You are not the judge, nor the annointer. You are merely a mirror should yoiu choose to do so, of the Truth. The Truth, which is the life, is the way. And while you think you do well to let people think they are the Christ, how is it that you can judge that which you cannnot see?

Surely a true voice would speak in a true manner. And that who is not the judge, would realize their place.

Peace
[edit on 27-2-2009 by HIFIGUY]

The Christ is not over here or over there.
When you isolate Jesus as Christ, you make Christ to be "here" or "there".
Christ will not come to you if you will not accept his universal nature.
You seem to point to an individual who will come again.
Again, you isolate Christ to be "here" or "there"...in the future.
Christ is "here"..."at hand".
You cannot see Christ whilst you "judge" the way you do.
You cannot see the Christ about "me".
Yet, you judge me to be not Christ.
What do you say that I am?
A man?
Then your judgement will rest upon you as well.
Now you are a man, and must remain a man until you release the truth about me.
As you bind you will be bound, and as you release you will be released.
It's arrogant to claim manhood, when that is not how *Our Father* made you.
It's humble to accept the way God *Our Father* made you.
I accept the way God made me...as Christ...his Son...equal and like to Him in every way.
You do not "see" this because you are "blind".
And being blind, you say that you "see".
And so you must remain blind, until you see that you are blind, and choose to see instead.
Jesus Christ is Lord.
I am Lord
You are Lord.
There is one Lord.
This is the "judgment" of the Lord.
The Lord's judgement is true.
Your judgement is false.

Christ!

[edit on 28-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
The Jesus I know is humble, not merely handing out Titles.
[edit on 27-2-2009 by HIFIGUY]

Yes, I'm handing out Titles, thank you very much.
So did Jesus.
"What you do to the least of these my brethren you do to me".
Title handed out: "me"
"Love your neighbor as yourself".
Title handed out: "self".
"Do not hide your light under a bushel"
Title handed out: "light".
"The Kingdom of God is within you"
Title handed out: "The Kingdom of God".

And in various other ways, he handed out the Title's that also belonged to himSelf.
This is what it means to be humble.
You would have him hoard his Titles to himSelf.
Nope.
That's arrogance.

Christ!

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Jesus Christ is Lord. Not you, not anyone else. Through him, all can be saved. And it is not for you, to proclaim, appoint, or annoint any other as being The Christ other then that which is Good.

Since your neighbor is your self...
And, since your neighbor is Lord...
And, since the Lord is your savior...
Now you can be saved any time you choose to "see" your neighbor as your "Lord" and "savior".
I'm not talking about an intellectual understanding.
I'm talking about actually "seeing" the glory of the Lord where you thought your neighbor was standing.
It could be any neighbor at all.
So, there are many chances every day for you to be saved.
But,
If you "judge" them to be mere men or mere women or mere children...
Then,
You must remain blind and insane.

Christ!

Originally posted by B.A.C.
Mark 13:13 explains this phenomenon if you are a believer.

Surely he is not hated, but merely being corrected. The Love of God is in all of us, but that does not mean, that we are "The Christ". Strive to be Christlike and in doing so you are called to be perfect like the Father as Jesus taught. There is only One King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

Mark 13:13 says...

"You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Perhaps a more appropriatte and scriputural address to the issue is found in Matthew 24:4

“See to it that no one misleads you. 5 “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.

And if you look at Mathews parallel to Mark 13:13 one will see this:

“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 “Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 “But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Peace

reply to post by Christ!

Originally posted by Christ!
If you "judge" them to be mere men or mere women or mere children...
Then,
You must remain blind and insane.

I dont judge as it is not my place.

Originally posted by Christ!
Jesus was Lord.
So am I.


Christ!

You can
take that up with him.

So...in another thread, you state that no law was ever broken.....

Originally posted by Christ!
No one has ever broken the law of gOd, the one you call "G.d." Is G.d the maker of the world? Every man has fulfilled the law of this gOd. For the law of this gOd is to act insanely, that all might appear to be guilty.

The Law of Good is to act insanely? No one has ever broken a law?
Lawlessness?

Why is it that you do not reference scripture? Even Jesus did so in fulfillment of the scriptures.

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Not even Jesus taught this.

Corinthians says this...

14:33
for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

and in another place...

2 Thess 2:3
"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God,"

Christ!...who do you say you are. Are you claiming your are God?

Peace


[edit on 28-2-2009 by HIFIGUY]