What is with all the "Christianity-Debunking" attempt threads?

reply to post by HIFIGUY


Well your playing a much different tune then you were in previous posts. You didn't word your piece as well and you seemed more condecending then anything else; I'm refering to the earlier posts. I understand your position and I can be fine with two people being at completely different ends of the spectrum, thats lifee; positives and negatives. I only call some Christians here hypocrits and I will take you off of that list, others here I've spoke with talked about BREAKING the ten commandments because for example one was a marine and murder for him seemed to be "ok", others it was simply they couldnt because of "social norms". There were many other reasons but this simply looks like someone wants to be something but really doesnt wanna be committed. I'm only jaded because of the others on this thread that constantly give themselves a double-standard because they follow god and live in "god's" country. You have quite a steady religious head on your shoulders the others here are mainly posers and you can see that from their previous posts, read the 24 pages of 80% Christian Hypocrits. I'm sorry for taking a stance on you when my matter should have been handled elsewhere, if you doubt what I'm saying read the pages it's all there.

[edit on 11-2-2009 by TNT13]

reply to post by TNT13

one was a marine and murder for him seemed to be "ok",

Is your stance so weak that you really find it necessary to lie to make a point?

While 'you" made the statement that I found Murder to be "OK", "I" never made that statement and if you will review the post history you will find that what you have just said is a lie.
Now usually we find a poster that has such a weak side doing this sort of thing, but there for a moment, I was thinking better of you.

Shame Shame

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis


No my mistake you totally avoided any answer to the question at all, stating that it was none of my business. Leaving me to make the assumption that you were ok with it. You were the one not willing to give me an answer then, and I thought you had ended any coversation with me? So I'll ask you again, have you killed anyone while at war? Doing so would be a direct slap to the face of your "christian" religion and would only further my resolve of the Chritian-Hypocrit appearance. If your to state that you did and it was for your country, I call BS because at the moment it is a volunteer position. Regardless of anything about you: How many Marines have killed that are supposed to be Christian? I think quite alot, so in the instance I am correct. Confession allows you to feel like you can do anything and everything will go back to normal anyway. You my friend should have spoken up earlier if you had a problem with this, I stated this much earlier and I believe I said the same thing to you in an earlier post. So why exactly did you post, other then to whine?? Since you didn't state anything new other then what you had said to me back 10 pages, so this is no longer aimed toward you BUT ALL MEN AND WOMEN OF SERVICE WHO CLAIM TO BE PART OF A RELIGION THAT STATES QUITE CLEARLY THAT MURDER IS INEXCUSABLE, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN KILLING SOMEONE THEN CONTINUEING IN THE CLEAR HYPOCRICY OF YOUR OWN RELIGION; AS I STATED EARLIER CONFESSION IS MEANINGLESS IT DOESNT RETURN ONES LIFE.

AND BY THE WAY FOR A MODERATOR I WOULD EXPECT MORE FROM YOU THEN POLITELY TRYING TO CALL SOMEONE STUPID, WITH SHORT, SMUG, INSULTS. ACTUALLY NOT JUST MORE FROM A MODERATOR BUT MORE FROM A MARINE.

SHAME SHAME.


[edit on 11-2-2009 by TNT13]

reply to post by YeshuaWarrior


When I was a Christian, I also had an arsenal of stories at my disposal that I would present to non-believers as some sort of evidence.
The truth is, things happen that we don't expect in the world, not just to Christians. There are many medical mysteries which are in no way linked to religious beliefs.
Even so, I've found that most of these stories, religious or not, are either made up or greatly exaggerated or misunderstood.
I'm not trying to say that you're lying or anyone else is, just that these stories truly mean little to someone who understands how such stories come about. There's always another explanation.
Though your explanation may be God, another person's explanation may be Zeus.

Now, there's a greater reason why I could never accept such a story as proof of God's existence (the God of the Bible), even if I saw it for myself. The reason is that there are major flaws in the Bible and the idea of God which simply don't work. So if I were to see a miracle, I would be more likely to tag it to any other supernatural event than God, because there are just to many logical reasons for me to believe that there is not a God.

You will believe what you want and that's great.
Just saying, don't expect such stories to mean anything to anyone else (except of course another Christian ).

reply to post by TNT13


I'm sorry, I have reread all the posts and fail to see where I have "called" you anything; interesting tactic that. Kind of like telling a lie about what someone has said.

I fully and succinctly answered your questions, again, I am sorry if you are unable to understand my answers. I can only communicate on the level I do.

The title of the topic is, "What is with all the "Christianity-Debunking" attempt threads?", it would appear that you have decided to resort to some tactics that I personally will not stoop down to. This is a common occurrence when supporting a weak side of any argument.

You have been shown, more then once the Christian passages that speak of and address your issue. Is it anyone else's fault that you either did not read them, or simply can not understand them?

If you did in fact read them, it is patently clear that you can not comprehend what is written. Please don't be discouraged, many can not, you are not alone.

Being a Christian and Fighting in a war are not mutually exclusive. This you would have discovered if you could understand what was presented to you earlier. So you are either wrong, misinformed or just lying again. Again, this is not really any other persons fault.

Being a Christian and being an Officer of the Law are also not mutually exclusive. If you say they are, you are either just wrong, lying or again, you can not understand the facts that have been provided to you; as source material has been provided that factually substantiates this very issue.

Also, take particular note that at the end of your paragraph, you begin typing in all caps. This being the Internet equivalent of yelling. Do you often find it necessary to "shout down" another persons point of view? Perhaps this is a "tell sign" of a larger issue you may have personality wise? I am not a Psychologist so I can not accurately diagnose this. But yelling to prove a point is not conducive to a good stance on anything and is perhaps unhealthy. (Please refer back to my previous disclaimer)

If you are finding it difficult to control yourself, tell the truth or handle yourself in such a debate; as evidenced by your previous posts and lack of comprehension, you may want to try reading some of what is provided here.
Online Bible

have you killed anyone while at war?

Completely none of your business.
I wonder what age you are? I would expect an adult to know better than ask that on an open forum board. No insult intended at all, just if you are very young, that would explain much about your inability to comprehend.

I thought you had ended any coversation with me?

I had not before, no, as I am employed I have responsibilities that require me to move away from the computer from time to time. But I am concluding the conversation now. The untruths combined with the yelling are directly indicative of an inability to carry on a controlled, intelligent conversation. I am here at ATS, to engage in those "controlled, intelligent" conversations and not ones such as these.

I apologize for any discomfort this may cause you and if you still do not understand or can not comprehend the facts contained in the sources I provided, I suggest reading them again and again until you can. That is the only help I can provide you at this point.

Sincerely
Semper

reply to post by semperfortis


this is from your post a few pages back I believe page 13, "Now if you wish to continue on your present tact, I can only assume you have no comprehension or are just here to "play around" and I truly have more serious things to do than play." The first back handed smug comment you gave. Clearly you are uncapable of reading through your own material.

And clearly you subject your self to the same double standard of all christians in making it that killing during wartime is ok. You haven't offered me any proof as to why someone should kill someone else you've only shown me the madness that can come from someone reading a book that makes them feel they are justified in committed murder; however politically or religiously driven that murder may have been. You are the one unable to carry out a intelligent conversation because an intelligent person would know there is no justification for death. Thank you for furthering my resolve.

I fully read all of your posts and you gave me absolutely no reason to sway my problems with christianity. All you did was point to passages that give reason to blind madness. Read your own work you may learn something, but since your probably such an old old old old old man from how you seem to be able to call me a child; you'll probably learn nothing since you can't teahc an old dog new tricks. So in order for you to be calling me young your over 60 right???????? Sorry someone doesn't see eye to eye with you, and never will. By the way the only weak side of the arguement is Religion... Since history shows us it has only led to bloodshed and segregation. Seems your side is much more weak...

So a better question how do you dispute the fact that billions have been killed over the years due to religion? More then any other cause in human history. How do you dispute that people of religious faith have oppressed poorer people with their beliefs? And again how do you account for a man who claims to be religious and then murders at war time???????

I'll put that last one in just cause you can't seem to give me a better answer then blind mad scripture.

[edit on 11-2-2009 by TNT13]

Originally posted by SumnerKagan
We aren't idiots! We see these flaws. We live with the doubt. But, that is where we practice the use of our faith.

But that's pretty much saying that you need faith to ignore the obvious flaws of the Bible.
If there is a God, then surely he would not promote ignorance.
Wouldn't he want people to question those words and not just have faith that there's more good than bad in the Bible?

Originally posted by SumnerKagan
So, in our eyes, when a person delves into our beliefs, and attempts to cast doubt and negativity on it, we see it as nothing other than an attack.
And, make no mistake. When a person attempts to create doubt in another person's beliefs, and then push it into their faces, (as is being done on this site), it is comparable to the acts of a religious person pushing their beliefs into the faces of non-believers.

There are pushy atheists... I think I've been one in the past.
But simply stating your beliefs is not an attack.
And I really don't think it's on the same level as Christians trying to 'save' atheists...

Christian to atheist: You have no morals. You're evil. You're a 'heathen'. I'll be praying for you (which may seem "nice", but to an atheist it can be a huge insult. Especially to an atheist who does have morals, and possibly even more so than the average Christian).

Atheist to Christian: You're ignoring the flaws of the Bible and hiding it under the 'mystical' word known as "faith".

There's a big difference. One of them attempts to make the other less of a person by looking down at them as if they are a criminal, while the other is simply making an observation of Biblical flaws.

Originally posted by SumnerKagan
Any forceful intrusion into the belief or views of a person, is going to cause great discomfort and fear, and will be met with defensive, aggressive reactions. Regardless of who is on what side of the fence.

Forceful, yes. But many times it's not forceful. Much of what I've seen is atheists making observations about Biblical flaws. This if far from "hate speech". In fact, it usually only delves into hate speech once a Christian joins and tries to justify God killing children in the Old Testament (for example).
Whenever a discussion turns into mud-slinging, it's best for both parties to ignore it. We learn much more from civil discussions than from spitting out our mouth and hoping the other person will get the message.

Originally posted by Gigatronix
People want to get out from underneath the percieved oppressiveness of religious doctrine so they can do what they want without feeling guilty. To achieve this you have to render the rules irrelevant by discrediting the rulemakers.

I call BS on this one.
If Biblical laws meant anything, then we would be killing gay people, killing our kids for disobeying, and cutting our eyes out for looking at Angelina Jolie in a "lustful" manner.
Clearly Biblical laws mean nothing except to stroke the ego of those already observing them. They ignore the ones they want to ignore and rant about the ones they happen to keep.
With all the absurd Biblical laws, I would like to think that I could create a better list. In fact I have.
My code: Cause no one else harm.

Want to admire Angelina Jolie's sexiness? Go for it.

Want to let that gay person make his own damn mind without shoving your opinion on him? By all means!

Want to not have to kill your kid every time he/she back talks? Sounds swell! After all, all that blood-lust in the Bible can be tiring. It's nice to not have to kill someone every once in a while.

It's got to happen really.

If you believe in the bible, revelations states that christians will be hated above all others, and will be persecuted repeatedly. The attacks on christian beliefs and whatnot will increase in both rhetoric and in violence as it says in new testament.

so even though I hate seeing it, and hearing it. I know it's gotta happen, cause it proves the bible right anyhow. As years have went on the attacks have increased and more and more people lash out or in 'geek speek' Trolls have really come out of the wordworks so to speak to make extra effort to attack people's religious beliefs.


If you're a christian, and understand the prophecies and revelations it's just something that has to happen.

so I just never click on the hate posts. Unfortunately mods seem to allow hate posts against christianity, but tend to immediately police hate posts against jews and muslims more. I don't know why, but just something that has to happen I guess.


[edit on 2/11/2009 by Cito]

Originally posted by BO XIAN
I suspect you've never reconciled the Messiah as

1. Suffering Servant

AND

2. Conquering King.


Nor have you explained why The Name and Blood of Jesus halt UFO abductions but the name Moses does not.

I have a different view of the suffering servant and conquering King than most. My view is derived directly from prophecies and has no need to add or take away from to fit in a man name Jesus (though he certainly is a part of this... only it is as it is written and in a sense.. his image that is worhsiped is indeed conquering even now )

I do not understand what your point is with the UFO's. I do not worship Moses either. I worship no images... this is a fact. G.d says that what man seeks, this is what he will get (yes.. true Love).. though, it will prove that He alone is the only Saviour. So.. people expect aliens or a man to save them.. this is what it is they will receive.. though they will realize these things do not save.. but it IS what they were wanting to trust rather than Him...

Whether you believe me or not matters little to me. It is written out exactly as it will play out... so there will be no excuses for those who chose fear, control, and images over the Truth. I do not feel a need to force this on anyone since the same Truth is available to all, even outside the Tanakh. It is in front of you as much as it is in front of me.. you alone are responsible for seeking Truth and understanding.. and if you look to man or aliens to gain it, than you will receive truth.. your truth.. and what will show people to where "every knee shall bow, etc" is that man will finally be aware of the Truth and how they have blindly been navigating themselves here on earth.

And, as I understand it . . . interestingly, increasing numbers of Rabbis are secretly agreeing.

In any case . . . in answer to the OP, Christianity is MOSTLY BASHED

because satan doesn't waste much time on bashing UNTRUTHS.

The Jewish belief does not recognize Satan as a bad thing, necessarily. Also, those in the Jewish community who view Jesus as the Messiah either do so for one of two of ways (which I will list), but neither of those ways are identical to the christian view.

The view:
1. Either the recognition that Jesus is the fulfillment of the curses (Deuteronomy).. though, the ones who hold to this view are few and far between, as I have seen. I am agreement with this line of thinking for it is written to be so. HOwever, they do not believe in Jesus as their Saviour, G.d, or King. That would be the LORD G.d only.

2. Those who believe Jesus, the man, will return are falling for the curse.. yes, it is scary how this view is increasing rapidly amomg them. however, I am not altogether sure that they will fall in the end for the curse as G.d blessed them and promised to deliver them as long as they did not have any gods before Him. I am uncertain and there are those who are reaching their own even now to warn them concerning the Truth.

My heart belongs to the people here and so I only offer out what I know to those who can "hear" me... which tend to be the non religious types who have grown up in my culture and ways of thinking.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
reply to post by justamomma

 

Justamomma, you continue to complain about this despite the fact that there are many other instances in the bible where Jesus helped gentiles.

You select this one passage to make him seem bad. What about all the other examples where he showed his goodness to gentiles and all other people?

So by the Jewish law, who is guilty of a worse sin? Moses the murderer, or Jesus?

What crime can you convict him of? What sin has he committed? Other than the fact that the Jewish people do not yet believe that God himself came to visit them 2000 years ago. The whole reason why he was crucified.

[edit on 2/7/2009 by thehumbleone]

Jesus was a man and so, he was not perfect. This is evidenced also in the case when the woman, the adulteress, was accused of sinning and Jesus says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Have you ever given thought as to why Jesus did not cast the first stone? This is the whole of the Bible... to see who was trusting man and who was trusting G.d.

And see, we trust only what we can see in front of us (the interpretations of man) and have thrown out all logic and therefore have accepted the lie (rather than using Truth and logic to fill in the gaps of the Bible).

Now, I would like to say that you have given me much reason to believe that you have a good heart and are trying to do what you have perceived in your heart as right. I have perceived this based on your response to the following:

Originally posted by moocowman
I was under the impression that, that was what religion was designed for.
By the way why do you still insist on dropping the O out of the word god,? we all know there's an O in the word god, so it seems a pointless thing to do.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
reply to post by moocowman

 

Because she is Jewish and Jewish people do not speak or spell the name of God.

Respect her Beliefs. Something I wish everyone would do.

I appreciate this and I do agree with this. What I do not respect is when the beliefs are used to guilt, shame, and cause fear in others. That is control and manipulation... and I have no tolerance for that. I have friends and family who are Christian and I respect their views and they do not push them onto people. We discuss these things in civilized manners, and the uplifting thing to me is that they are coming to realize the lie and delusion they have been under.. and the credit is not minie. IT is because G.d has started to speak to them on their terms... which is what I know to be the only way one can escape the lies.

This is why I do not push what I know on people. I offer it up and the only time I become adament about speaking out is when I see another guilting, shaming, or causing unnecessary fear to others.

I agree... respect is a valuable character trait and you have gained my respect despite our disagreement in views. I understand now where you are coming from.



[edit on 11-2-2009 by justamomma]

And let's just raise up the question of the Bible itself. Why would God give human beings a law, written through man, when less than 10% of the population was literate?

If God was truly omnipotent, why not just incorporate those laws into the physics of the universe. If "Thou Shalt Not Kill", then why make it possible to do so.

Don't you see how utterly stupid this is? It's like handing a child a lollipop and telling them not to taste it.

And the contradictions are mind-boggling. Why is God revered and the serpent reviled? God lied to Adam and Eve, the serpent told the truth and yet we don't hold God to the same standard God has for us. It is acceptable for God to lie?

And really, all that is okay if you want to conduct your life in this manner and accept this as literal truth. The problem is when you want other people and society at large to accommodate your superstitions about a book.

If I say I am a Pastafarian and that no one should work on Fridays because that is our holy day, should the entire nation bow down to my whims? Since the Church of the FSM believes that beer is a sacrament, should beer be sold to us even in areas which have a prohibition on liquor sales?

Why do we allow one religion to dictate laws and preferences and not others? Why are your beliefs more important than mine or anyone else's?

Originally posted by VelmaLu
And let's just raise up the question of the Bible itself. Why would God give human beings a law, written through man, when less than 10% of the population was literate?

If God was truly omnipotent, why not just incorporate those laws into the physics of the universe. If "Thou Shalt Not Kill", then why make it possible to do so.

Don't you see how utterly stupid this is? It's like handing a child a lollipop and telling them not to taste it.

That is a false judgment of G.d. What you call imperfection is actually free will. You are in essence saying... G.d, this is your fault for not controlling us.

And the contradictions are mind-boggling. Why is God revered and the serpent reviled? God lied to Adam and Eve, the serpent told the truth and yet we don't hold God to the same standard God has for us. It is acceptable for God to lie?

Satan, in the Jewish belief anyway is simply the ability to be able to question ones own motives. It is when one gains knowledge.. whether you gain the correct understanding depends on whether you are leaning to man's understanding or the Understanding of G.d.

And really, all that is okay if you want to conduct your life in this manner and accept this as literal truth. The problem is when you want other people and society at large to accommodate your superstitions about a book.

The superstitions are only superstitions when, as you say, people accept the literal version because they have come to believe man over G.d. Behind the words is the Word. It is logical, practical, and when you see it, you no longer charge G.d with an imperfection in the way He created man.

Why do we allow one religion to dictate laws and preferences and not others? Why are your beliefs more important than mine or anyone else's?

I think the Truth is the most important and whether or not it is accepted is not on me ultimately. I have no condemnation or rewards in what I know. Knowing *is* the reward.. and it is reward enough to me.

As I said, the only time I become adament with knowledge in a "forceful" way, is when someone is bullying others.. and even then, I am still only defending by offering up correct knowledge of the Scriptures.

You are quite smart in some of your questionings by the way. If you follow them through, you will find that the Truth is not found in a Book.. it is only confirmed in the Book... but it can only be confirmed once one has seen the Truth.. by questioning.

Originally posted by VelmaLu

Why do we allow one religion to dictate laws and preferences and not others? Why are your beliefs more important than mine or anyone else's?

I don't want laws based on any belief.

I want them based on - logic - science - reality.

You would have to be a non christian to understand why we hate christians so much. Then again you should know. Your backward ass sheep ways will not fly in a modern, science and technology world. People cant be killed now just because you don't like their beliefs except if your the government. That gives anyone who dont follow you a voice and we use that to get our rights back. So i ask you, why do you and your religion want to suppress my freedoms?

Originally posted by TruthParadox

Originally posted by Gigatronix
People want to get out from underneath the percieved oppressiveness of religious doctrine so they can do what they want without feeling guilty. To achieve this you have to render the rules irrelevant by discrediting the rulemakers.

I call BS on this one.
If Biblical laws meant anything, then we would be killing gay people, killing our kids for disobeying, and cutting our eyes out for looking at Angelina Jolie in a "lustful" manner.
Clearly Biblical laws mean nothing except to stroke the ego of those already observing them. They ignore the ones they want to ignore and rant about the ones they happen to keep.
With all the absurd Biblical laws, I would like to think that I could create a better list. In fact I have.
My code: Cause no one else harm.

Want to admire Angelina Jolie's sexiness? Go for it.

Want to let that gay person make his own damn mind without shoving your opinion on him? By all means!

Want to not have to kill your kid every time he/she back talks? Sounds swell! After all, all that blood-lust in the Bible can be tiring. It's nice to not have to kill someone every once in a while.

I'm not syaing this is what I believe personally, it's what I speculate some people pass off as "logic" in their attempt to debunk Christianity.

I agree with your code: Cause no harm. I actually take it one step further by supporting people who are Christians or Muslims or Jews or (insert spiritual preferance here). My feeling is, if you subscribe to any of these things and do your darndest to live a peaceful productive life, I will support your efforts. I prefer a peaceful Muslim to a militant Atheist any day.

That is a false judgment of G.d. What you call imperfection is actually free will. You are in essence saying... G.d, this is your fault for not controlling us.

Free will is a myth.

If we truly had free will, we could opt out of God's system of reward and punishment without divine retribution.

In fact, we are prisoners in the Universe of a despotic Creator who demands not only our loyalty, but our obedience.

This is NOT free will.

If God knows our future even before we are created, then God knows which of those souls will "abide" by His rules and which will not. Therefore, God creates souls for the express purpose of eternal damnation, since it is His choice to create them or not create them.

If we had free will, we would have the choice to opt out.

God also knows EXACTLY what each individual needs to believe, yet God withholds that from certain people. If I do not believe in God, it is because God has not given me what I need to believe. Therefore, my disbelief is His fault and His responsibility.

If I am not given what I need to believe, and I choose to believe out of fear of reprisal, then that would be a greater sin, would it not? Therefore, I am in a catch 22, albeit a divine one.

Third, the entire system if farked. How can someone else pay for the sins of another? Why has mankind been cursed because of the Adam and Eve disobeyed? How can Jesus atone for the sins of another.

It is seriously screwed up.

Originally posted by Gigatronix
I prefer a peaceful Muslim to a militant Atheist any day.

I prefer a peaceful (insert label) to a militant (insert label) any day.

Not really much of a point there.

I'm not to write a lengthy post about attacking religion. Instead, I'm going to write a short post, and say that I believe in God wholeheartedly. I'm not some freak who will press my beliefs on others, nor am I one who will let others do that to me.

Originally posted by VelmaLu
If we truly had free will, we could opt out of God's system of reward and punishment without divine retribution.

Uhm.. you can. It is called taking your own life in your hands. You are the one opting to stay in Life. The only Divine retribution is what you are in the midst of now. Do not like it? You have an option. I do not recommend it.. not because you will be punished as the concept of an afterlife is stupid (after life is death ), but because it shows you lack the ability to suck it up and take responsibility along with the rest of us.

And exactly how does that work? If I decide I want to opt out of the scam, and I kill myself, you mean I don't have to face judgment?

Where is this written? I'd like to see it, please.