The Real Reason the Government Doesn’t Want to Bail out the Auto Makers.

reply to post by cecilmeyer

I usually have over 200,000 miles on my American made vehicles before I trade them in.I have read Toyota is now loosing money,I guess they are building junk now right? I know it must be because they pay their workers too much.No wait, it must be their lavish benefits and pension costs.Oh thats right they do not have lavish benefits or pension costs.I guess it must be their over paid,lazy contract workers.

Great post and thanks so much for taking the time to share your thoughts.

I am so with you on the things that you shared. I believe the UAW is the shining example of how workers can united to receive a fair wage, real benefits, and security within a corporate world more concerned about profits than the human beings whose labors generate them.

Getting people to look beyond the societal conditioning sure is hard. How it saddens me that anyone could be criticized for working an honest job for a fair days pay, simply because most people are too lazy and sheepish to stand up for themselves and their legitimate needs.

Thanks again. I hope Ford makes it through all this. They sure have made some great cars throughout the years. Not to mention pioneering the whole concept of mass production and perfecting it.

not sure if this has been said already but another small factor could be the Climate change Nazi brigade.

Not sure if the government would want to be seen providing the so called biggest polluters of this would with billions of dollars.

There will be incentives to push car manufacturers towards Hybrid auto mobile production but never anything that's going to hurt big oil in any substantial way.

reply to post by dominored

I think you hit the nail on the head when pointing out that is the effect of what is happening. We all have a future with even less independent news being dispensed to the general public. That is a dangerous condition indeed.

The amazing and frightening thing is, that even with the complete corporate dominance of the news media, and both Rueters and the Associated Press owned by the same man that people truly believe we have free speech in this country.

Yep you can say almost anything. Try getting it published though.

reply to post by Odessy

Except that we are bailing them out...

General Motors is a company that writes 100 year business plans not just yearly ones. They asked for a lot more money than they received. They asked for far less and do far more for the economy than the banks are doing.

Was the smaller amount reluctant law makers awarded a bailout or a pay off.

Here is your share of the treasury in the economy and government we are collapsing. Sorry should have spoke up sooner. We just about have the people all tapped out and not much left to go around. Hey we can give you free parking validation stickers too if that helps.

reply to post by tombangelta

not sure if this has been said already but another small factor could be the Climate change Nazi brigade.

Christopher Cox the head of the SEC and former congressman from Newport Beach California, health and fitness capital of the world had another term he coined.

Health Fascists!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I agree that the auto industry MUST be bailed out. This is why I had created the following thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

I agree that the auto industry MUST be bailed out. This is why I had created the following thread:

Thanks Professor, thanks to good folks and excellent efforts like yours, we just might end up saving this crazy rock we live on.

I look forward to reading that thread.

Originally posted by cecilmeyer
have worked for Ford Motor Co as an auto-worker for over 20 years.It amazes me how a CONTRACT worker makes such observations and judgements.

First, because as a contractor I did not have the company blinders on. Secondly, I saw this stuff every day for years while there. Are you going to deny that what I am saying is EXACTLY what happens? When they want get any REAL work done they have to call in a contractor, because the employees are busy going to meetings, classes, golfing, playing cards, or playing on the PROFS system. It used to even be a joke back then that “the meetings would continue until we figure out why none of the work is getting done”. You HONESTLY going to try to deny this to me?

Originally posted by cecilmeyer
I could make the same ignorant statements.How about the reason our quality was bad for a while was of the incompetent and lazy contract workers we hired because corporate no longer wanted to pay their own workers to do the job?

Contractors were the only people who seemed to care, since they could be replaced at a moments notice, therefore they were the ones who actually did the work. Another employee trick was that when testing or something had to be done, get a bunch of college Interns to do it for you.

Originally posted by cecilmeyer
Also those people you are so quick to judge for having a high school education and were pushing a broom,those were workers with over 30 years and their senoirity allowed them to get that job.

Or they are a second or third generation employee who feels entitled to this treatment. Look at the list of Salaries I posted above, does that seem right to you? Can you honestly say that seems right? If that looks right to you, then here is a prime example of what is wrong with the current employees of these businesses.

Originally posted by cecilmeyer
It is sad and unfair that a person who does not have a college degree makes a decent living with medical benefits and a pension?

No its sad that a person with a high school education can get a job paying more then a college level Medical, Rescue, or Law Enforcement Personnel does, working in a pampered environment with WAY too many benefits. Then still want more every time the contract comes up for bid. You ever heard of earning something and not having it handed to you? What makes a Autoworker deserve better treatment then say a firefighter?

How many weeks a year of vacation, personal time, sick time, and retooling time you get off in a year?
Just your two weeks of Retooling time is more then MOST American workers get in a year. You starting to see exactly how slanted your view on this is yet?

Originally posted by cecilmeyer
You think just because you have went to college that makes you better?

A better question is... Do I feel that the people listed above contribute to society, and do autoworkers deserve to have better pay or benefits then they do? The fact that I even have to explain this to you is freighting to me. Its nice to see that the greed in these places has gotten that much farther out of whack.

As I said above... You want Government money then your Unions should have to submit to the same rules as other government Union Entities have to.... No strikes.

Originally posted by cecilmeyer
We do not live in a Corporate Fascist State?Do you live in America?Or on planet Earth for that matter?The corporations run the the U.S and the planet as a matter of fact.You claim to be educated and you seem to have missed that one?

The Government does not run companies, whether or not companies use their influence on the government is another matter entirely, but does not constitute a corporate fascism.

Originally posted by cecilmeyer
You are tired of hearing about the poor auto worker who made the bed they are lying in now?Really?I have been working on an assembly line for over 20 years and I did what exactly?

Maybe not personally, but I am tired of these weekly threads, country music songs, etc... on the plight of the poor autoworker.

Originally posted by cecilmeyer
Come to work on time?Do a quality job?Get injured,cut,severe lacerations?Some workers permanently disabled or even killed?

Don't even go there with me. I have had family members who worked the coal mines and steel mills in WV and PA, you think that they had it as cushy as an assembly line worker has it? You think there job was less dangerous? You think that they made anywhere near that level of money or benefits?

Originally posted by cecilmeyer
And one last thing.A 100,000 miles and they have to be replaced? Funny I usually have over 200,000 miles on my American made vehicles before I trade them in.

99% of the American people who own an American Car sell it at 100K because it is that well known that is when they start to have all kinds of problems.

Originally posted by cecilmeyer
I have read Toyota is now loosing money,I guess they are building junk now right?I know it must be because they pay their workers too much.No wait, it must be their lavish benefits and pension costs.Oh thats right they do not have lavish benefits or pension costs.I guess it must be their over paid,lazy contract workers.

As I already explained all the auto companies are losing money, because no one is buying cars right now. However, I don't see Toyota running crying to the Japanese government for billions of Japans taxpayer money.

A funny pic:

On State Highway 17 between Richmond Hill and Darien, Ga. there is a huge area cleared out in a wooded area that is filled with thousands of new automobiles.

Also on State Highway 82 about 2 miles south of the Brantly County line is another huge cleared out area filled with thousands of new automobiles.

These are all mid to small sized cars. There is a mobile office on the property. It's very well fenced and lit.

The second week of January I saw several car haulers lined up waiting to unload even more cars at the site on Hwy. 17.

This is very unusual as there are port cities where cars are unloaded and taken to facilities to be readied to be taken to car dealers. Those three ports are Savannah, Ga, Jacksonville, Fl. and Brunswick ,Ga. and are not far from the area where these thousands of cars are just parked and being exposed to the elements and nothing is being done with them.

Normally, cars are brought to the ports and driven a very short distance to an area where radios, a/c units and other components are put in the cars. They are are also repaired if damaged in transit to the ports. They are then cleaned and shipped by car haulers to various dealers.

What are auto makers going to busy themselves with when we now have an extreme excess of last years new cars.

So, now we have 2008, 2009 and the new 2010 will soon be taking up space in a field somewhere. Surely the two auto holding areas I saw are not the only ones around.

Something is very wrong here....just can't figure it out yet.



[edit on 7-2-2009 by dizziedame]

[edit on 7-2-2009 by dizziedame]

[edit on 7-2-2009 by dizziedame]

reply to post by dizziedame

So, now we have 2008, 2009 and the new 2010 will soon be taking up space in a field somewhere. Surely the two auto holding areas I saw are not the only ones around.

The cars are starting to pile up on them and more and more storage facilities are having to be improvised to store these rapidly depreciating assetts.

To give you an idea of how difficult the logistics are becoming a General Motors Acceptance representative here in South Florida that I know is in charge of handling repossesions in the area. Before a year ago on any given day GMAC was in the process of trying to reposess around 300 cars where the borrowers were more than 60 days past due.

They would agressively seek these cars, snatch them, then auction them.

Now on any given day here in South Florida there are about 15,000 cars that GMAC holds the note on where borrowers are 90 days late or more.

Not only can GMAC not logistically find a way to retrieve this huge amount of vehicles and to store them, they know that if they actually could and ran them all through auction it would drive down the prize of used car wholesale costs drastically and further bankrupt their own dealers whose purchased used car inventory would decline drastically in value because of the depressed value being gotten for them at wholesale auction.

Now days when GMAC calls most late borrowers it's not to threaten them with repossession its to beg them literally for anything. Could you at least send us 10.00 dollars? Something? Anything to show that you want to keep and pay for the car eventually.

There is a growing nightmare out there we should all be aware of and what you are sharing about this new holding facility demonstrates that clearly.

1 in 7 Americans is directly or indirectly employed as a result of Auto Manufacturing.

Thanks for your post.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
we just might end up saving this crazy rock we live on.

What an arrogant remark, like the world is going to end if the auto companies fail, just how out of touch with reality are you guys?

Just the fact that I posted this:

making more then these folks make:
(based on averages from salary sites: )
RN: $55K to $65K
Paramedic: $30K to $45K
Police Officer: $40 to $60K
Fire Department: $30K to $50K
Teacher: $40k to $60K

Compared to:
Automotive Assembly Line Worker: $55K to $70K
Automotive Engineer: $60K to $90K

Yep that sounds about right.

And these guys don't see anything wrong with this should tell the American public EXACTLY why a bailout won't work. These guys perception of a “Fair days wages for a Fair days work” are THAT far out of alignment with the rest of the country. You bail them out, you'll be bailing them out again and again. They have gotten to where they don't even realize how askew from reality that their salaries are compared to everyone else, and they are entitled to that via osmosis or something. GM itself apologized to the consumers for the crap product that they have foisted on the public, yet the employees feel that there was nothing wrong with this and are in here defending that product.

WTF?

reply to post by defcon5

What an arrogant remark, like the world is going to end if the auto companies fail, just how out of touch with reality are you guys?

I am sorry that I didn't better qualify how we might save this crazy rock. The Professor I responded to is active in many threads dealing with the violence in the Middle East and the Political situation in the United States and the Economic Crisis gripping the world.

No bailing out the Auto Makers is not going to save the world.

Neither though is pretending that all is just fine and letting a few more million people loose their jobs suddenly is going to make life better.

Most businesses are poorly run. Some are poorly run because of greed and short sightedness. Some are poorly run because of incompetence and negligence.

All are poorly run because they are human run and humans are imperfect creatures.

Engineers build machines and appreciate numbers. 2+2 always equals 4. You can base things on sound numbers and logic all day long, and make machines that run efficiently all day long.

People though enter the equation and try getting a jealous lover to say 2+2 = 4 when they don't want to be agreeable.

That's the human equation.

I am not sure what your take is on the world that you live in or the state it is in at the moment, but most people are frightened and do not believe it is in a good state.

They are frightened for good reason. The number crunchers have taken over the world.

Numbers are great, but they aren't people. You are here presumably because of inherent need in humans to be sociable.

Everything you are basically posting is screw people if they can't perform up to your expectations.

I have one problem with that, and it's the reason I am not overly critical of many people and situations.

I am not perfect. I am a flawed human and I make mistakes as a result of that. I can't very well hold others to an expectation I myself can't attain and be considered reasonable.

Can you? Are you? Some might think you aren't.

Being a skeptic is great. Perhaps you can annalyse the NWO bullet after you are shot with it to determine its stellar properties and manufacturing techniques how effeciently it was made, how cost effective and profitible it was and give it a rare vote of approval before dismissing it was fired by the NWO and were just random street thugs who purchased black t-shirts with NWO emblazoned on them and expire happily with that thought.

Me, I am a lover and an optimist. I would rather see you live to be old and gray and die in a loved one's arms.

So yes I am looking for ways to save people's jobs, way of life, and lives.

In every way shape and form that I can.

Don't worry the world will always need critics!

reply to post by defcon5

These guys perception of a “Fair days wages for a Fair days work” are THAT far out of alignment with the rest of the country.

Excuse me but the rest of the country is basically tapped out, poor and nearly bankrupt.

It sounds to me like the rest of the country would not be in such dire straights had they followed the example of collective bargaining for wages.

It is absolutely insane when companies like Wal-Mart and others post billions of dollars in profits while their workers eat macaroni and cheese and live in tenaments and take the bus to work after having to borrow the fare from the guy next door because they could barely feed their kids breakfast that morning.

Why is it you feel that a handful of executives are entitled to huge earnings and the guy having to sift through the garbage deserves nothing but a pittance?

The rest of the country has fallen victim to the same type of conditioning that you have. Some self damaging belief it is better to just accept, and let others exploit them for great profit in order to merely survive.

It's starting to sound to me like you will be wearing one of the NWO t-shirts with pride.

Think about people, compassion is what seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.

I have compassion for everyone. The UAW workers are not making to much, the rest of the country is making to little and you know, you are never going to find a fact or statistic to overcome that fact.

You can justify the poverty you want people to live in. That you believe it is alright for people to live in while less than 1% of the worlds population controls 90% of it's wealth. I can't.

Never have, never will.

Originally posted by defcon5

Are you going to tell me that someone with a lesser education should be making more then these folks make:
(based on averages from salary sites

RN: $55K to $65K
Paramedic: $30K to $45K
Police Officer: $40 to $60K
Fire Department: $30K to $50K
Teacher: $40k to $60K

Compared to:
Automotive Assembly Line Worker: $55K to $70K
Automotive Engineer: $60K to $90K



I am done with this for tonight.
I’ll look at it again tomorrow.

So what you're continuing to cry about here in this thread is if you want to make more then a line worker, choose to get a higher education in something other then these fields above?

The last time I checked people went to college to get in to a field of their choice. To do something they they want to do in life, no? Most know what type of pay and benefits they are going to recieve when deciding on what field they're going in to. A perk to higher education for most is doing what they want to do in life.

Fact remains you can't base pay off of education. There's some fields that take 4yrs of college that pay absolutly nothing. On the flipside there's plenty of career fields that take no college that pay excellent.

I find it funny that the ones pointing fingers about entitlements are the biggest offenders of what they think they are entitled to and what their own self worth is. It's usually that guy with that 30yr, $1500/month, college loan who can't find a job and is now serving construction workers their Caramel Macchiato in the morning.

[edit on 7-2-2009 by Tyr Sog]

There are paper mills in my general area and I am mortified at the thought of a floor sweeper getting paid over $20.00 an hour to sweep.

Be prepared to pay a house cleaner at least $25.00 per hour and then the work is not usually top notch.

I do live in an area where many folks have summer homes on Jekyll, St. Simons and Sea Islands. They are very wealthy people. Their summer cottages are anywhere from 6 to 12 bedroom homes with guest houses attached.

One of my friends has just retired from her day maid work. She has three cars that are paid for in full, a home that she had built 10 years ago that is paid for in full and she only worked three days a week.

What has happened to our society when maids make as much as registered nurses and work less hours.

I have enough work that needs to be done on my property to keep a man busy for a month. I can't find anybody that wants to work as a laborer. In the few instances when I have found someone they wanted 10 to 20 dollars an hour to rake, haul trash and do other simple tasks.

We can't go on as we have in the past. The rubber band is about to break and when it does there will be hell to pay.

reply to post by Tyr Sog

Fact remains you can't base pay off of education. There's some fields that take 4yrs of college that pay absolutly nothing. On the flipside there's plenty of career fields that take no college that pay excellent.

You sure can't, I have a 7th grade education and business associates who graduated Harvard and Yale have for years been trying to encourage me to not be embarassed that I didn't go to an Ivy League school and just confess which college I went too, because they believe my claim to a 7th grade education is pure bunk to not have to disclose which university I did go to.

What are wages anyway but a form of class system of entitlement. You are entitled to be poor and labor with out respect and thanks, you are entitled to be a little better off and labor and use some discretion in how you do so, with a little respect and an occassional thanks, you are entitled to labor at your complete discretion with all of our respect and most of our thanks.

It's a class system that doesn't reward effort or sacrifice but instead takes advantage of the masses to enrich a privaleged few who often ended up privelaged by birth and not by merrit.

Originally posted by dizziedame
There are paper mills in my general area and I am mortified at the thought of a floor sweeper getting paid over $20.00 an hour to sweep.

Be prepared to pay a house cleaner at least $25.00 per hour and then the work is not usually top notch.

I do live in an area where many folks have summer homes on Jekyll, St. Simons and Sea Islands. They are very wealthy people. Their summer cottages are anywhere from 6 to 12 bedroom homes with guest houses attached.

One of my friends has just retired from her day maid work. She has three cars that are paid for in full, a home that she had built 10 years ago that is paid for in full and she only worked three days a week.

What has happened to our society when maids make as much as registered nurses and work less hours.

I have enough work that needs to be done on my property to keep a man busy for a month. I can't find anybody that wants to work as a laborer. In the few instances when I have found someone they wanted 10 to 20 dollars an hour to rake, haul trash and do other simple tasks.

We can't go on as we have in the past. The rubber band is about to break and when it does there will be hell to pay.

Why are you mortified? If a company wants to compensate someone for a unskilled, dull, and more then likely back breaking job, my hat off to them. I say good for him.

Also, who wants to bust their ass for anything less then $10-$20/hr($10 is a steal, that's illegal alien territory and damn near slave labor). Those wages are next to nothing for back breaking crap work. It's so crappy you don't want to do it, so you yourself already know the worth of it. You'd just rather the other guy bust his back up for next to nothing.

Have fun doing your dirty work.



[edit on 7-2-2009 by Tyr Sog]

reply to post by dizziedame

I have enough work that needs to be done on my property to keep a man busy for a month. I can't find anybody that wants to work as a laborer. In the few instances when I have found someone they wanted 10 to 20 dollars an hour to rake, haul trash and do other simple tasks.

The problem is the disparity in wages earned. There is one segment of the population that labors for less than a living wage with most of them supplementing their wages through credit cards, home equity loans, criminal activity, or legitimate side work like raking leaves at your house.

It's going to cost me 10.00 in gas to get to your house to rake leaves all day. If I break down the cost of paying for my home it works out to 45.00 dollars. I live in a one room home! It's a nice one room on a nice beach but it's still 45.00 a day. Now I smoke two packs a day buying by the carton I need 7 more dollars. I still have not eaten yet, and I live alone so I can't do a cost effective roast or meat loaf. Breakfast lunch and dinner is going to be another 20.00. So if you need me to rake leaves all day I have 82 dollars in expenses. Of course I would prefer not to just rake your leaves to survive, I would like a little pocket change out of it too.

Now you know why most people could not rake your leaves.

The maids you are talking about were simply intelligent people who through their own not corporate initiative went out and found real living people that they could look in the eye and say hey, I will do this quality job for you, I will prove it is a quality job to your expectations, I will show you that I am trustworthy (priceless) and I want to be compensated to this amount. Deal?

It's called bargaining. It's called understanding I have not only expenses but want to enjoy a bit of life too.

It's what is wrong with the corporate culture, you can't bargain, you are just a number, an employee number, in a zone, that is numbered, in a store that is numbered, in a department that is numbered, working a job that is numbered, that they will let you work at if you accept their number and rule. They make kazillions doing it because too many people say hey, I will take that number and then at the end of the day go crap. I don't even have enough time or money working this job to get my leaves raked.

The guy or woman who owns the company is living over on Jeckyll paying the maid good money for one reason. The job she is doing is now personally effecting them, because the job she has is working with their most personal belongings. All of a sudden the boss really cares now. About themselves. That's why they pay the maid so much, to not steal, to not disclose any secrets she happens upon cleaning to make sure their pretty things are pretty when they get home from their job as slave master to the rest of us underpaid workers.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I am sorry that I didn't better qualify how we might save this crazy rock. The Professor I responded to is active in many threads dealing with the violence in the Middle East and the Political situation in the United States and the Economic Crisis gripping the world.

No problem I guess I misunderstood what you were talking about.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
No bailing out the Auto Makers is not going to save the world. Neither though is pretending that all is just fine and letting a few more million people loose their jobs suddenly is going to make life better. Most businesses are poorly run. Some are poorly run because of greed and short sightedness. Some are poorly run because of incompetence and negligence. All are poorly run because they are human run and humans are imperfect creatures.

I can agree with this.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I am not sure what your take is on the world that you live in or the state it is in at the moment, but most people are frightened and do not believe it is in a good state. They are frightened for good reason. The number crunchers have taken over the world.

I can pretty much agree with this.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Everything you are basically posting is screw people if they can't perform up to your expectations.

Not what I am saying at all. You guys are asking for our tax money to bail you out, while you all are making more then even the public servants who risk their lives to protect us, so you can continue to make a inferior product to sell back to us. I would have no problem with what you guys make as long as you are not taking that money from the rest of us. How dare these folks ask for money from the public when they are not willing to make sacrifices to bring their wages down in the realm of those who they are taking money from.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I am not perfect. I am a flawed human and I make mistakes as a result of that. I can't very well hold others to an expectation I myself can't attain and be considered reasonable.
Can you? Are you? Some might think you aren't.

I am one of those medical workers now, so I do hold myself to those standards. When I worked at the big three, even though I did not even make a fraction of what the employees did, I felt uncomfortable about the waste and abuse I saw there.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Me, I am a lover and an optimist. I would rather see you live to be old and gray and die in a loved one's arms. So yes I am looking for ways to save people's jobs, way of life, and lives. In every way shape and form that I can.

That is a great and noble effort, but I think you have the wrong cause this time around.
I know I have asked this repeatedly, but I have yet to get an answer.

How can you feel justified in borrowing money from the government so your UAW guys can continue to make inflated wages, which the people that they are borrowing it from do not even get? How can you feel justified in saying its an “honest days pay for an honest days work” when you you are making more then people who do the kind of stuff I listed above? You guys do realize that the average autoworker makes almost double the national average salary, right? How can you feel that an autoworker who can use his union to blackmail his company should receive better treatment then an employee who has more education, works a more dangerous job, and cannot strike because of civic responsibility?