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Originally posted by NatureBoy
reply to post by Amaterasu
Sorry for not filling my post with quotes, i don't think you can say that i ignored your points however i have tried to present a structured and clear argument which takes in and on as many of your points as possible.
Originally posted by NatureBoy
reply to post by Amaterasu
Where as you just ignored quiet a few of mine, namely the 'lizard hearted' being fiendish anti-utopia criminals who i presume deserve death, or #reprogramming# -you'll brainwash them into thinking that your system is the best.
This is what went wrong with communism, at first they assumed they could all have everything if they worked together but it never happened, even working fairly together they still couldn't manage to live in opulence like they wanted. Stalin was sure that the 'lizard hearted' were to blame and before you know it millions of people were dead, starving and enslaved.
I #did# read the bit about communism as it goes, to be honest i find it a bit vain that you think i could only grasp your great work in all it's glory if i pored over each and every word -most of it was fairly predictable and the interesting bits i'd read about from all those science fiction authors you listed earlier -but still whatever, ignore the point i was making..
We don't have the resources or the power to give everyone everything they want.
oil for example makes plastic, rubber, food additives, road surfacing and a dozern other things beside gasoline. We could use ethonol but then if everyone used as much fuel as the average american we would need a few more planets worth of food growing.
This is not a moot point, the 6billion people at the moment can't all have a car to drive every day, they could barely have enough food -certainly not the same amount of food as the average american.
To create robots, flying zen gardens and all the other things you want we will need a large investment in infrastructure, this must be taken from the maximum human potential doing power minus the power needed to survive -the current state of the world isn't great, we're hoping for a technology which will lower the cost of survival because soon we won't be able to afford to pay it. This will most likely be robots, however we will need to be able to implement the solution before we get the benefits -this, as we see during the early industrial revolution (Dickins Hard Times) this can be very painful indeed.
So, we reach an point at which we either manage to create robots and start a robot based system OR one in which we fail while trying and collapse society.
While in the very long term abundance is inevitable as the other poster says, however only if we survive long enough to reach it -robots is only an early step, electronics and mechanics came before and space based industry, atomic level mass manufacture will come shortly after but at any time we could be reset back to square one, thats why we need to move one step at a time and make each move count.
So as i said, you book is too distant in the future for it's implication to affect us,
why don't you try making some positive difference such as learning about robots and being the person to perfect a AI for a garden maintenance robot, learning about how to get off grid and generate your own power, show people that having a well paying job and working all hours of the day isn't vital to having a good life and maybe they would enjoy life more if they worked less and spent some time sorting out their own projects which require less money but more time.
You book basically suggests Greed as the answer, you'll say i didn't read it i just know you will or tell me that its to do with scarcity and yes it is - at the moment the most likely think to knock us off the perch and ruin society,the economy and with it our chances of installing robots, decreasing the cost of living and spreading fairness and abundance is GREED. Look at the depression, it's caused by greed -stupid greed.
We can not have everything we want, not yet, maybe soon if we pull together and work to make an effective society -however maybe food shortages and riots will tare the world to bits throwing us back the the iron age and it'll be another five thousand years before we get this close to the robot revolution again.
So please, stop telling people to be greedy and to want everything, flying zen gardens and teleporting water fountains -if you want to spread the route to this world it's pragmatism not greed.
I finally crested that soft-gray world of half-sleep, stretching my every sinew under the luxury of silk satin. With eyes parted slightly, I looked around my terrace-garden room, breathing in the scent of lilacs and orchids and rich loam, listening to the song of the larks that made the zen-jungle of my house their home.
xcuse me, but I did answer to your questions, individually and specifically.
The Lizard Hearted do not need to be "brainwashed" - a great many of them are toadies too. All I am doing is pointing out how much better ALL of us, Human or Lizard Hearted, would be if toadiness was abandoned. If we took the same goal of abundance, if we take control of our planet's resources, everyone would benefit.
Except... In the efforts to make Communism work thus far, "everyone" did not work together. (Regardless of the ideal of that happening.) Most placed their faith in the leaders and let the leaders steer things. That the leaders were selfish, cronyish, and otherwise less interested in the people that they should have been, is of a vital nature in assessing why the system failed.
In my offered solution, everyone with internet access has the opportunity to work on the problem. If you know of resources, you can report them. If you know about the free energy devices, you can disclose them. If you are good at organization, you can organize. And so on.
The efforts will be fully transparent, with anyone able to see the efforts being made. Not like agreements made in back rooms somewhere on the "behalf" of the people. This would be the people themselves working for the goal.
So the best thing that can happen to the idea is to spread it, and if we can get most willing this in all they do, we can succeed.
I came to my assessment of your grasp based on your comments and how they did not reflect the concepts I presented. I guess it's vain to use that as my indicator...
energy in the plenum
You are aware that many farmers farm nothing, getting paid to NOT farm, aren't you?
if we shifted to abundance
using our "bailout" dollars to profoundly increase efforts to solve specifically the tech issues in creating our robots
I think you blinder yourself to only the mainstream perspective.
sitting in Black Ops.
Either work together for abundance, or expect the Lizard Hearted to take out 6.5ish billion of us.
Because my forte is analying data, developing perspective solutions and writing about what I see. It is not in robotics or programming (I am retarded when it comes to math), it is not in building things, nor in anything that would relate to the rest of this paragraph.
How you can claim that I am claiming that greed is an answer, I am clueless.
Originally posted by Jay-in-AR
I never mentioned "banning" anything. This is the second time I have seen this in this thread already. No, I don't think this is an offense that warrants a ban, just a slap on the wrist.
I'm sure the book is good. The problem comes in asking for donations, and then having the follow-up post coming from a newbie giving a MORE THAN GENEROUS review of the OP.
Good lord, I guess I will take my cynicism elsewhere!
I now offer this book gratis to any and all who want to read it. Though money would be VERY nice in my life right now, I would rather usher in abundance and not have to worry about money.
Though money would be VERY nice in my life right now, I would rather usher in abundance and not have to worry about money.
Originally posted by Astyanax
I finally crested that soft-gray world of half-sleep, stretching my every sinew under the luxury of silk satin. With eyes parted slightly, I looked around my terrace-garden room, breathing in the scent of lilacs and orchids and rich loam, listening to the song of the larks that made the zen-jungle of my house their home.
Barbie! Barbie awakes!
Sorry, I couldn't read any further.
Dear Nature Boy,
I want to thank you for the opportunity to meet you, head to head. I suspect that you are not "thou,"
And the number of heads aiming at the same goal(s) is irrelevant to the value of the goal itself in terms of its ethics.
plenum
Well, it leads me to conclude that "you" might be "more than one of you" desperate to keep this status quo. (I mean, the odds are that if you're working for the status quo, which surely looks ugly in its direction, there's more than one of you playing the game here in webland.)
You are claiming that because each benefits personally, such a choice would be made out of greed. But come on, dude, what you're implying by that is that it's OK that billions suffer death by hunger in the near years to come, because you would eschew such luxury. WTF?
No one would come to that conclusion if they looked at it ethically. No one would so readily throw up their hands and insist on not addressing information and attacking, unless the status quo was their goal. They would be trying to actually look at the data and doing research.
So I wonder muchly what YOU (all of you) consider ethical, or if you consider ethics at all. I might even conclude that you are either paid by (and indoctrinated by) the Lizard Hearted, or you are, yourselves Lizard Hearted.
Please...note my speculation. If I am wrong in my evaluations, please show me where, and I will retract any or all of what I say here, upon evidence.
Thank you for hearing my perspective.
Originally posted by Amaterasu
Mind firmly closed, indeed.
Off with you then. If you cannot endure until the full message has been delivered... Heh. [shrug] Says less of me than you.
Another proverbial beginner's story is the "Mary-Sue," so named because a woman with that name wrote novel-length Mary-Sues and sent them to every house in the business. The princess (or queen) has a lovely and fantastic name: "Goldenshower of the Stormless Isle." You know. She is the hereditary ruler of Everything. She is also the universe's leading scientist and as brilliant as she is beautiful. Everyone is in awe of her. But we never see why. Her brilliance, wisdom, leadership etc. are only talked about. Never shown. This is, of course, female fantasy packaged as fiction.
An Interview with Gene Wolfe, Clarkesworld Magazine, August 2008
Originally posted by Astyanax
You expect me to 'endure' being bored to tears?
Originally posted by NatureBoy
The Lizard Hearted do not need to be "brainwashed" - a great many of them are toadies too. All I am doing is pointing out how much better ALL of us, Human or Lizard Hearted, would be if toadiness was abandoned. If we took the same goal of abundance, if we take control of our planet's resources, everyone would benefit.
oh dear, why don't they need to be brainwashed, what will make them (e.g. Islam, Christianity, Neo-Cons, Me) accept your new world order? Which i hasten to add is what you want.
Except... In the efforts to make Communism work thus far, "everyone" did not work together. ... Most placed their faith in the leaders and let the leaders steer things. That the leaders were selfish, cronyish, and otherwise less interested in the people that they should have been, is of a vital nature in assessing why the system failed.
Ok, did you ever read communist manifest or are you just guessing that the soviet state capitalist system was exactly what people like Marx and Engels talked about?
#hint# It wasn't.
They more or less describe your system, in a much more practical way of course and with less psudo-zen History shows us that is causes many problems when you try to implement a system like this, i.e. not everyone can agree on the priority of things and we can't have everything at once (no matter how hard you wish we could)
ok, you have an internet - point to the free energy, oh right yeah those .pdf's all over my ebook folder - no, none of them work, mostly due to thermodynamics. So now we have a free market system, with no incentive for anyone to do anything other than boredom - with no money, people needn't work, thus the many, many things we need don't get done -everyone does easy things like sit around and plan for the future or make lists of things for other people to do.
I 100% support the idea of total transparency in most areas of government and commerce, however people guard their privacy very closely and in an open world those who #do# plot in secret have a massive advantage, thus they quickly take power and ruin the system (as stalin did)
but yet you will insult my reading comprehension skills while failing to debate the actual issues - you haven't said how you will get the system installed without the need for some form of 'brainwashing', 'reeducation' or the more traditional genoside.
You failed to cover a single one of the things i said about a man I've been a great fan of my entire life, i have read many technical descriptions and workings and heard many great people speak about him - yet you still claim with no evidence that you know something about Tesla that i don't
also did you know that NOT letting fields grow fallow caused the dust bowl of the 30's? ... Now we #could# trap nitrogen from the air and over fertalize the land, this would cause all sorts of long term problems, ruin eco systems and wipe out many bird and animal species which are vital to our geosphere.
if we shifted to abundance
how?
they are spending billions on working out things using conventional means, they really want to be able to crack certain barriers which if they had anti-grav or uber-energy would be pointless -i just don't believe they have anything really special under the table (apart from china which has some crazy lazers but thats another thread...)
so again, you whole dream rests on a fantasy - we don't have unending resources or power.
...who understand thermodynamics like me
How you can claim that I am claiming that greed is an answer, I am clueless.
yes, yes you are. WE - DO - NOT - HAVE - ENOUGH - OF - EVERYTHING - TO - LIVE - IN - ABUNDANCE!!!!! ... that is why i am saying your message is greed, no if we had a billion every things then yes you could take what you want and no one would care, we don't and never will if people keep being greedy and keep taking more than they should. -i suppose you deny global warming and peek oil too or don't we need oil with the 'black op' tech
Originally posted by NatureBoy
wow, you are good - i HAVE worked for the status quo. i hung their lighting rig at the corn exchange (true story) how did you know? Also yes they do look ugly now, crazy! Also wow, 'the game' i just lost it.