In the event of a total collapse ownership will be a non-issue. You'll only own what you can defend by the might of your arm and the business end of your gun. Desperate people don't act civilized or obey laws when there's no one left to enforce them.

Human nature and free will is an interesting thing isn't it, all the while we think we are so "civilized"

Good point friend.



T-
out

[edit on 09/2/11 by telemetry]

I'd say for the past 10 years we've seen a real influx of people who are trying to get out of the cities. They'll sometimes just pick up a small undeveloped piece of land and put a camper on it. We've seen people camping out in box cars, semi trailers, older single wide trailers, school buses you name it. They often leave whatever shelter behind and just visit or some stay. People do it all the time and they're doing it fairly cheap depending on the amount of land.

It's still fairly wild and open here. Lots of land so people do as they please. There are some developments with covenants but most areas are pretty laid back.

LLoyd45 got it right.

Food will not be an immediate problem for truly rural areas, but not because of an overabundance of crops. I always get a laugh out of this misconception. Rural families tend to stock up on supplies simply to prevent making multiple trips into town. It's simply a practical consideration.

In addition to our own stock there's a local dairy farm, a feed store with feed and grains, beans, rice, flour, seeds, salt you name it. After a pretty bad winter one year a local emergency food pantry was set up and emergency supplies were distributed to us out here in the county. We all store water most of us have large cisterns.

From what I see around me I think the rural areas are best. It will be as comfortable as you make it. Choose wooded areas so you have plenty of fuel. The RV idea is only a good if you move it to a piece of land well in advance like many have done around here. The mice will get into everything so be careful what you leave if it sits empty for awhile. Good luck.

Originally posted by reluctantpawn
On the other hand people in the city will not know a potato or carrot if it bit them. If you should decide to stay learn guerrilla gardening. Anyplace can grow something.

A place to stay warm and dry will almost always be available. Bad weather sucks, and will kill you quicker than marauding hordes, if you don't know how to survive it. How many people here really think their coleman tent will hold up in gale force winds?

I do not plan on doing a tent, I am doing a makeshift shelter using
tree limbs, rocks, rope, and dirt, Basically a bunker.

Once again I strongly stress do not ever depend on the government. When you start to take their help they will destroy and control you. Do you really want to be shuffled off to a place like the Astrodome and deal with no food, water , poor sanitation , and not be able to leave? Not to mention do you think they will protect you, not a chance, but they will take your weapons away from you when you enter their facility for the " safety of all". Oh yea you wont get them back.

In New Orleans during katrina, ppl were shooting at the rescue
helicopters sometimes.

Ppl were looting and doing all kinds of crazy things.

In LA during the riots fire erupted and burned large areas.

What happens if the fire reaches some stored chemicals ?

Ppl have seen the wildfires in california and australia kill, and
there is not much defense against them.

Your best bet to be 100% safe is not be there.

Just my opinion.

Originally posted by telemetry

Human nature and free will is an interesting thing isn't it, all the while we think we are so "civilized"

Good point friend.
[edit on 09/2/11 by telemetry]

Civility in my opinion is just one of the masks we all wear every day. People act civilized because:

1. They fear retaliation from the law or other individuals around them
   
2. They have no emotional investment one way or the other in a given situation
   
3. Their personal circumstances permit them to act civilly
   
   
   Take away any of these inhibitors, and you'll see a person's true nature reveal itself. That's why in times of crisis you're better off not counting on the goodwill of others to save you. People will feed themselves and their families before all others, they will take that which doesn't belong to them if it will help them survive, they will lie to, cheat, steal, and/ or torture another individual if it's in their best interest to do so.
   
   If you threaten another person's life or their livelihood by your presence, you're asking for trouble. Of course, there are those individuals in society that will rollover and die without a fight, but they'll be the first to go, and the bottom line is.. nobody will care. That's the behavior of prey, and they're just another resource to be harvested..
   
   
   
   [edit on 12-2-2009 by LLoyd45]
   

Water indeed is a very good point to focus on, especially in the UK. Many people survivalist and otherwise have set their hearts on either relocating or bugging out to the west country, Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Somerset .

Yet even in normal times the west country is short of water and it frequently comes close to running out in the tourist season, AND most of the water suplies in that area have to be electrically pumped to the users.

Plus most of the drinking water down there requires quiet a bit of treatment to keep it clean and safe.

Travel to the north east and cumbria and a huge amount of the water is gravity fed and much of is does not require treatment before consumption.

If you look at the broader view of getting out of the big cities and heading SW you need also remember that that area has very little material than can be used as fuel, Up north theres sea coal, deep mine coal open cast coal, oil, gas, and boats loads of timber. Iron and lead are easily accessible and the population density is far lower than either the SE or SW.

I envisage the SW becoming overwhelmed pretty quickly by panic strickemn sheeple from the cities if TSHTF

Whether staying-put or bugging-out there's going to one major problem with either plan...the general population

Escaping the city will be the plan of action for many, and the current idyllic bugout retreat with its seclusion and running water supply may just become part of a wider refugee camp, and what you've taken the time and effort to set up will be very jealously viewed by others who will want to take it from you for themselves.

The same applies to staying-put...the longer the situation continues, the more likely you wil be found-out. An inadvertant flash of light from your shelters off-grid setup, cooking smells, even just appearing well-fed or healthy whilst the gen pop is malnourished and starving will be enough to raise suspicions and turn a mob with the 'right of entitlement' on their minds against you

Wow, amazing posts. I'm always highly impressed with the insight and intelligence of ATS members on any given topic.

I've been away for a few days (road trip) I did take some time to scout out a few areas in northern Arizona, though when leaving I got stuck in one of the worst snow storms they have had in years south of Flagstaff on Monday night on I-17... 28 inches of snow! Global warming?

There is an area in northern Arizona, it has multiple water sources, and the climate can be unique depending on elevation you can be hot or cold by changing location of 5 miles. Will be a good place to go if things go bad.

I'll go back when I can and take some pictures.

While on my business trip, once again I found closed businesses, more laid off workers and cut backs. No good signs, making money is extremely tough right now, in fact my income tax returns are going to be needed soon just to get by.

Keeping up on current events, I'm convinced that President Obama's stimulus plan will fail after creating a brief pause in the current economic fall, eventually perhaps leading to accelerated inflation, or worse hyper-inflation. Again, I hope I am wrong, but things aren't getting better, and throwing this money into government projects etc. doesn't seem to be a good idea. We could have only a few months before a complete collapse and again I hope I am wrong.

So for now I'm still learning and preparing. And I do have a day job, at least for now!

Thanks for the great posts.

In the event of a depression or natural disaster, staying put is likely best. Especially if you have a house in a suburban or rural area, just be prepared ahead of time with lots of water, firewood and non-perishables.

In the event of a total economic collapse or something that has people rioting and looting on the streets, you want to get right out of civilization. In this case you either want to have a pre-set location where you already have food and water, or even shelter set up. Maybe a piece of land you bought far from the city that you can travel to. This assumes you can easily get to it though and it isn't going to be squatted on when the SHTF. I am thinking of staying mobile and keeping a very well made BOB handy with everything needed to bug out to any wooded area I can get to, and set up a semi-permanent camp.

If you can get into the woods with a tarp, and fully loaded pack, you can build yourself quite a nice weather-proof shelter and constantly improve on it. You will have lots of free time to do so between foraging and snaring for food and purifying water via pump or boiling. Once you have your semi-perm shelter built you can decide how long you will be stuck out in the wild and search for a more permanent building spot and start the slow construction of a small cabin from materials available. Depending on where you are you can make day trips out to civilization to acquire (steal) more supplies under the cover of night from abandoned houses if need be to improve your shelter.

I think staying mobile and having the tools and skills to setup wherever the opportunity presents itself is the most safe plan of action.

All of you are getting pretty radical. You will not survive out in the wild for very long, you will die.

If you leave camp and you don't leave a group of people behind that you can trust, then you can expect there to be no camp when you get back.

If you are alone, they may wait till you leave to get water, or hunt or just yourself exploring, and then they will take your stuff or poison your food or water with rat poison and you my friend will be in the happy hunting ground forever.

Your best bet, is to get yourself a house in a small town or village of about 2000 people or so, where almost everyone has their own water well; even though they may be connected to city water. These people will not come over to kill you for water in the future, and they will protect your small house or shack or whatever you have, because THEY KNOW YOU. They have seen your face, and you have seen theirs and all of you know that you belong.

They know that if they protect your place you will protect their place, it is a win, win situation. Since all of you have wells, hopefully the people there know how to grow food to eat. You can have chickens or quail for meat and eggs in many small cities, check their ordinances beforehand though. Make sure there is good water under the house BEFORE you buy it. You can buy a fixer upper for small money, and it will be tremendously cheaper and safer than trying to live alone out in the wild where you are nothing but a target.

Learn which chickens lay the most eggs per year and eat very little because they are good foragers. You can live off of water and eggs for a very long time. Eggs in the future will be like gold, and a true life saver if something really bad does happen.

If you like to have meat, chicken tastes great, and it will be worth a lot to starving people. If you like really tasty meat, and I mean really tasty meat then you should hatch out some Giant Japanese Quail; because they are ready to eat in a month, and they lay eggs almost daily, and they can start reproducing in less than a month, I think they can start reproducing at 17 days of age.

You can live a long time on water, eggs and meat. Out in the wild, you will be DEAD. Don't be a fool and think you can survive in the wild, you will be killed by people that will want the clothes you are wearing.

There is safety in numbers; but only in small "self-sustaining" numbers.

Learn how to incubate eggs, it could save your life. Starting others off with their own flock of birds will mean a lot to others in the future, and they will protect you if you are good to them in such a way; and they won't feel like they have to come over and steal your birds in order to survive.

Learn how to survive, and then make sure that what you learned is able to save your life, and then teach others how to survive.

Originally posted by Northern Raider
Being devious at best when I get clients who hire me to help them develop BOB plans and relocation plans, If I dont particularily like them I tend to advise them to move to the SW or Wales, where I know they will struggle, but not be a burdon on my group. The families of individuals I like and respect I encourage to move up the Co Durham, cumbria and Northumberland where we can mutually benefit each other.

If you are being paid to provide people with the best advice then I am not really how comfortable I feel about your methods so I will ignore most of what you have said here.

I do want to make a suggestion that the groups have an contingency plan for how it deals with the unexpected visitor.

I believe that they have to be able to identify those that will be an asset and those that are best left to their own devices.

This is going to be tough because if you send off a person that is angry or feels unfairly treated that person will surely out to you everyone that they meet.

It you group seems to be making a successful go at it, well; you can see the problems that could possibly ensue.

My fear is that if the SHTF that the surviving world will be worse than the one that fell.

I pray for the Age of Aquarius but I fear the most likely winner is going to be the Age of Darkness.

Bugging-in in my mind has a distict advantage over setting up camp in the wilds, that of having a solid defensible weatherproof structure complete with material resources

Imagine survival in the wilds as a permanent 'glastonbury festival campsite'...throw in malnutrition, psychological trauma, disease, rubbish and effluent, black-market prices for basic commodities...

..oh, wait a minute, that IS Glastonbury festival

Originally posted by mattguy404
Almost everyone, so far, has suggested running for the hills...

this is true...and my dad, being in the "hills" just north of nyc is hunkered down and prepared for the eventuality of new yorkers heading his way. if you know what i mean.

If you live in a city now and don't have many assets, try spending your spare time looking for a job in the country. If you don't have friends, family, or assets in the country, you are rapidly running out of time to establish yourself. The main reason there are so many people in the city is there aren't jobs in the country.

When TSHTF, forget it. You will be stuck. It will be too late to run for the hills. The cities will likely be quarantined anyway. Having food, guns, etc, won't be enough. The police will probably be trying to protect their own families. If you don't have a good network, gang up with some other "Lost Boys" and pretend its a video game. Eventually Some One will beat you, but you won't be able to hit reset.

If your are stuck cityside, hide most of what food you have so whoever comes to steal it, thinks they got your last bit. Maybe they will leave you alone for awhile. When they see you haven't starved to death, they will torture you to find what you've hidden. When you tell them, they will take it and kill you.

In the "Valley of the Shadow of Death" the meanest SOB's will appear to fear no evil.

The best place to be will be with some religious people who band together and help each other against evil forces. If you don't know that set of rules, you don't have much time to learn them.

Originally posted by citizen smith
Bugging-in in my mind has a distict advantage over setting up camp in the wilds, that of having a solid defensible weatherproof structure complete with material resources

Imagine survival in the wilds as a permanent 'glastonbury festival campsite'...throw in malnutrition, psychological trauma, disease, rubbish and effluent, black-market prices for basic commodities...

..oh, wait a minute, that IS Glastonbury festival

If you got a well hidden place to grow food and it is fireproof you
should do well.

If it is not fireproof, check out what went down in the LA riots.