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Survival in the city, or survival in the wild?

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posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 01:50 PM
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The bug out scenario is definatly a romantic idea and option. I would highly recommend a solid plan, major preparation, clear thinking, and courage before the bug out. If these steps are not adhered to I would bet within 5 -10 days the " runner" will be buggin back.




posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 02:20 PM
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Some people seem to be more optimistic, after losing jobs they gather to party!

www.usatoday.com...


NEW YORK (AP) — The bar was crowded with well-dressed professionals enjoying drinks and conversation, a typical evening — except that none of them had a job.

The event was a Wall Street Pink Slip Party, where the unemployed gather to network, look for work, swap resumes and share their stories. With employers shedding 600,000 more jobs in January, the need for such parties has become important and, for some, therapeutic.

The undercurrent at this party in a Manhattan bar was decidedly glum.

"Wall Street, directly or indirectly, has ruined the best 10 years of my life," said Susan Lange, speaking of colleagues and friends she lost on Sept. 11, 2001, and the sense now, after being laid off from her job as an AIG training manager, that her world has again turned on its head.

"I'm devastated," the 39-year-old woman said.


These people as well as others are under the illusion that the jobs they have lost will rematerialize somewhere else in the form of new opportunities.

What if it gets worse people, not better, what if in the coming months job losses are even higher? What if at some point unemployment is 50% with a completely failed stimulus plan, devalued dollar, international crises etc?

Bah, why bother worrying or preparing, have another drink!

Cheers!!!



[edit on 7-2-2009 by Walkswithfish]



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 02:41 PM
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Raoul Castro best lookout.

There might be some Floridians returning the favour shortly.

Someone has been ranting (name escapes me) for ages that the next boat-people will be Americans looking for work.

Sucks to be right sometimes.



posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 08:47 AM
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I've ordered a couple more items, a wind up radio which can receive all bands, and an awesome hand held GPS. So far everything I have can be carried in my backpack, but it isn't light, so I will need to work on getting in better shape... and even if nothing bad happens that will be a good thing.

I read through a local paper and there is an interesting opinion piece written by a retired financial consultant. His analysis was both enlightening and frightening. The gist of it predicts a worst case scenario where state governments fail along with banks and financial institutions, basic services lost in some areas, and in some large metropolitan areas there could be mas exodus of people, civil unrest, military intervention, riots, looting following the breakdown of private businesses, especially food producing companies and the transportation industry which will result in limited availability of necessities which would trigger a very dangerous situation in urban areas etc.

Needless to say not being prepared would be foolish, however knowing when to get away safely would seem to be quite a challenge, waiting for too long could mean getting caught up in the chaos.

An interesting blog entry from March of 2008...


The worst place to be in the event of a complete collapse is inside a city. The first problem would be the food crisis. The larger cities have only a few days worth of food inside them, which would prompt a very hasty and dangerous exodus from the city. Smaller cities can last longer, but eventually the inability to transport food from the farms to the cities will cause panic, mayhem, and eventually starvation.

Meanwhile, out in the rural areas of the country, food panic will not be a problem because that is where the food is grown. Farm towns will not receive fuel for the farm equipment, but at least the food itself will be there. In the country people are also more likely to own large livestock that can be used as alternative means of transportation.

A necessary item to own in the worst case scenario is a firearm, preferably several of them. In a panic and riot it happens that not only are those who have stockpiled resources the subject of looting, but innocent people are often assaulted or killed in random acts of violence. Law enforcement will be too busy combating the population to provide any security, leaving it the job of the individual instead.

For those who do live in the city and want to prepare for the worst, the best advice to give is to purchase an RV, preferably a Class A or Class C (the motorized RVs.) In the event of a crisis the owner of an RV can leave in a hurry. Some people are thinking about acquiring property in remote areas, outside of easy government control. The advantage of an RV is that one can more easily transport the family to those areas, and can also move again if worried about discovery. A place to live is guaranteed no matter where one travels, the only difficulty being the effort to find sufficient fuel and fresh water. If necessary the grey and black tanks of an RV can be dumped anywhere, not just in an authorized drainage facility.

A collapse of this scale will destroy certain concepts of ownership, due to massive property abandonment and the dislocation of the population. There will be a new round of homesteading, recognized primarily by common law instead of government. Those who still maintain ties to the government, such as agents of the Bureau of Land Management or Internal Revenue Service, will find their intrusion to be far less welcome than is currently the case. Conflicts between homesteaders and the military may occur, destroying some communities, but ultimately most areas will be considered beyond the reach of the government.


Source: aynrkey.blogspot.com...

Many of the current events related to the economic crisis expose the signs of a much stronger possibility of a complete economic collapse.

But for now, all is well... Or is it?

[edit on 8-2-2009 by Walkswithfish]



posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 09:21 AM
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A sign of the times?

I look for stories like this because when you combine the human stories with the factual news and look at the big picture possible scenarios become more clear, as more and more people lose jobs and become dependant on the governments it will get worse, no matter what your status is eventually it will get to you. Losing a job may not totally scare you if you are talented, skilled etc, but what if there is no other jobs to move to? Or if you do you find that thousands are competing for that job? That is where I found myself considering the possibilities then planning for the worst.

Just read this news article on CNN...


(CNN) -- As Walter Thomas knows, it's hard to look for a job when your stomach is rumbling.

The 52-year-old from Washington, D.C., started skipping meals in early January when his savings account was running dry and his kitchen cabinets were almost empty.

Thomas at first didn't want to turn to the United States' food safety net, the food stamp program, for help.

But after being laid off in July from what seemed like a steady job in sales at a furniture store, Thomas swallowed his pride and applied for the monthly food aid.

"It lets me think, 'OK, well, tomorrow I'll be able to eat. If nothing else, I'll be able to eat,' " he said.

With the national economy in meltdown, more Americans than ever are relying on the federal aid program to keep from going hungry. In October, more than one in 10 people -- about 31 million -- were using the food stamp program to get by, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

More recent numbers are not available, but advocates for the poor say the number of those in need of aid probably has increased since then.


More here: www.cnn.com...

Hunger, desperation, no jobs, dependence, competition for resources etc. if impacting substantial numbers of people could reach a triggering point as things worsen in this crisis. Eventually people change, possibly reverting to more basic animal instincts along with anger violence is likely. Don't want to ever see that happen, but there are more signs daily now that things are headed in that direction.

I'd like to think of everyone working together to first solve this crisis, come up with a plan that works at all levels of government to prevent a complete economic collapse, however I don't need to tell you if you have been keeping up on current events that so far that isn't happening.

I'd like to believe in the human spirit, that people will work together to share resources, to survive, to rebuild the economy in a worst case scenario, but frankly if it gets that bad it will be every man for himself.

Washington had better do something big and soon if they 'hope' to prevent a complete economic collapse... But they are all so absorbed in partisan politics that it is possible that some would rather see it happen so they can say "I told you so" then blame for political advantage in future elections.

How will history judge them if the worst case does come to pass?

[edit on 8-2-2009 by Walkswithfish]



posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 03:08 PM
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I'd like to believe in the human spirit, that people will work together to share resources, to survive, to rebuild the economy in a worst case scenario, but frankly if it gets that bad it will be every man for himself.


When people get to a certain point in starvation the higher brain functions shut down. At this point they will eat you. Thats been proven time and time again. I dont care to look up the sources you can look into past cases of canabalism. I recently ran into a new case that was around the Nile river in Egypt I think. The people ate their own children.

Also a very small percentage of the USA can take care of itself. The majority would in fact die in the event of a nuclear war. Say you bombed every major city, one economist stated only 10% of the USA would survive. I mean really these guys have never grown there own food and probably kill house plants. They dont know how to skin an animal or hunt. Occasionally some of these yuppies might go fishing, thats not even a viable source of food.

That was something I was going to mention, fishing and shooting game is not the best source of food. You said you bought a rifle and fishing gear. You may not catch anything one day or two days fishing. What if its winter? You can also hunt two days in a row with a rifle and not kill anything. Eventually you will lose all the fat on your body and suffer starvation. You need to learn to trap game. Wether its fish or squirrel. It doesnt matter but the reason traps are outlawed is because they work and they work well.

A snare type wire is going to be more important than your rifle. Your rifles there incase you run into game you can kill but dont have it as your main source of food. I can see all of these city slickers in their RV's out by the lake starving to death because its 40 degrees outside and they cant catch a fish. Well duh! I mean its a recipe for disaster. Those people might run to cattle rustling or something. People are no where near as moral as they were during the depression.

You dont need to depend on your GPS system it takes batteries. Get a compass and learn how to use it with a map. Learn how to navigate without a compass even. I cannot believe you bought a boat, not knocking you but that tells me you shouldnt be shopping yet until you study survival a good bit more. Are you expecting a flood lol? You need to put your pack together pound of pound, whats better to have etc... I hope if youre spending all this money that youve purchased two good knives as well as fire starting equipment.

I mean a lot of this is going to depend if youre on foot or not but Id get a decent sized tarp for your pack and not even consider using a tent, the weights to much to lug around. Also about 10 good sized trash bags should go in there as well. Start watching shows like survivorman, not man vs wild that guys a joke. Get ahold of the army and air force survivor manuals and memorize them. A bit harder to get ahold of but very informative. Clothing and being able to hide from other people would be another thing to think about.



Washington had better do something big and soon if they 'hope' to prevent a complete economic collapse... But they are all so absorbed in partisan politics that it is possible that some would rather see it happen so they can say "I told you so" then blame for political advantage in future elections.


They did do something, theyre printing money out of thin air to make your dollar worth less. They are trying to make this worse not better. Be more worried about what your government is going to do to you not a natural disaster. If an attack happens, think how would my government do this to me? Dont think like a normal individual because it will more then likely be your own government thats doing it.



posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by Memysabu
 


Great advice, I have some survival manuals, I do have a compass, the GPS is rechargeable (solar), so it is a good back up, I do have hunting knives... You are right about the collapsible boat, trying to get everything into a ready to go backpack with a manageable weight is a tough challenge.

Thank you for the advice.

I'm not planning on running to the hills, rather I simply want to be prepared to do that if or when it becomes necessary, and more importantly to be prepared to survive when or if I do.

As another poster said in another thread, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. In a worst case scenario escape from urban city areas will be a must, getting out by vehicle could be impossible, so as you said I need to be ready to go on foot, and carry everything I need.



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 09:47 AM
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Points to ponder...
GPS = Fancy, easy to use...and very TRACEABLE!
Compass = Compact, lightweight, requires no batteries and little training.

Bugging in or out...
As has been posted staying put in a city is futile regardless of what you have seen in the movies...

My fortress of solitude is already and waiting to accommodate 3 or 4 comfortably. It is truly "in the wilds" has fresh water (stream), cannot be seen from the air...(hint), and will still be there long after I die of old age.

My well equipped 4x4 can get me there in 4 hours. Old logging roads help to deceive any attempt at tracking me.

More weapons than should be allowed...LOL
Firearms, 2 compound bows...etc

There is no doubt when it is time to bug out. I will be gone and can wait and watch as it all goes to hell in a handbasket.



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 11:00 AM
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Meanwhile, out in the rural areas of the country, food panic will not be a problem because that is where the food is grown. Farm towns will not receive fuel for the farm equipment, but at least the food itself will be there. In the country people are also more likely to own large livestock that can be used as alternative means of transportation.
Food will not be an immediate problem for truly rural areas, but not because of an overabundance of crops. I always get a laugh out of this misconception. Rural families tend to stock up on supplies simply to prevent making multiple trips into town. It's simply a practical consideration.

Very few crops are grown nowadays by individual farmers. That goes double for livestock because of the ever increasing cost of feed. Most of the farming done today is by large corporations. The demographics have change drastically over the last 60 or 70 years. Only a very small percentage of the population still engages in agriculture. We used to feed the rest of the World, now we import most of our food from other countries. We're now a service economy with a small manufacturing base.


For those who do live in the city and want to prepare for the worst, the best advice to give is to purchase an RV, preferably a Class A or Class C (the motorized RVs.) In the event of a crisis the owner of an RV can leave in a hurry. Some people are thinking about acquiring property in remote areas, outside of easy government control. The advantage of an RV is that one can more easily transport the family to those areas, and can also move again if worried about discovery. A place to live is guaranteed no matter where one travels, the only difficulty being the effort to find sufficient fuel and fresh water. If necessary the grey and black tanks of an RV can be dumped anywhere, not just in an authorized drainage facility.
An RV is a terrible idea! Why not paint a sign for it as well that says Rob me? These things stand out like a sore thumb, are hardly maneuverable in normal traffic much less gridlock, and get terrible mileage somewhere in the range of 8 to 10 miles per gallon of gas. Yeah, they're cool looking and have all the conveniences of home, but they're totally impractical as bug out vehicles..


A collapse of this scale will destroy certain concepts of ownership, due to massive property abandonment and the dislocation of the population. There will be a new round of homesteading, recognized primarily by common law instead of government. Those who still maintain ties to the government, such as agents of the Bureau of Land Management or Internal Revenue Service, will find their intrusion to be far less welcome than is currently the case. Conflicts between homesteaders and the military may occur, destroying some communities, but ultimately most areas will be considered beyond the reach of the government.
In the event of a total collapse ownership will be a non-issue. You'll only own what you can defend by the might of your arm and the business end of your gun. Desperate people don't act civilized or obey laws when there's no one left to enforce them.


[edit on 9-2-2009 by LLoyd45]



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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reply to post by Walkswithfish
 


A lot of where the best place to be depends on the situation. For many SHTF situations, a very small town is best. Typically, in the city or a house way out all by itself in the country are not good places to be. Just my humble opinion.



posted on Feb, 10 2009 @ 03:02 AM
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reply to post by Walkswithfish
 


"The question is, would it be best to prepare for temporary survival in the city where I'd likely be dependant on federal and state government assistance, also exposed to the high risk of violence and civil unrest?

Or, would it be better to prepare for long term survival in the wild?"

It depends how temporary it is going to be. if you have not spent a great deal of time in the wild you will not survive for much longer than the food you carry lasts, thats assuming you have the proper clothing, shelter, and a supply of clean water. however the same situation presents itself in the city, but you will probably have shelter, you will be exposed to mass violence........people will turn into animals very quickly. if i were in your situation i would move to small town or suburban area, they are less likely to have a military presence and mass riots ect. remember that under marshal law the main roads, ports, train stations, airports ect. those will be under heavy guard. cities will quickly develop hundreds of gangs, but survival in the wilderness for a length of time, say more than 1.5 months is unlikely for you and you run the risk of getting picked up when you are trying to get out....then you are really screwed. so i would say small town or suburban area that is more wilderness than not, then you always have the option of getting into the wilderness relatively easily. but don't make the mistake of thinking that you will be able to pull off a Red Dawn scenerio, im not insulting you, im just saying there are very few that would be able to even do that. oh one more thing, buy a gun, lots of ammo and learn how to use it effectively. you could always move to canada, the new promise land, maybe



posted on Feb, 10 2009 @ 03:14 AM
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on a different note, if you need advise on packing for mid term survival (typically about 1 week to 3 months) i could help you devise a pack. my pack is designed for mid term survival although i could go a little longer if need be (assuming i can get food of course). i spent a lot of time going over it, although it is for my area you probably wouldnt need to modify it much, it could give you a good start.



posted on Feb, 10 2009 @ 05:02 AM
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reply to post by Walkswithfish
 

Look at everything you own and ask yourself these following questions.

1) If I sell this can I buy it back later if things get better ?

2) If ppl try to harm me or my loved ones will this protect me ?

3) If the government can't help ppl well during katrina ( 1 city ) will
this item make the difference for me and my family when hundreds
of cities are affected ?

4) If I am hungry and the city is on fire like the LA riots, can I eat
this item to keep from going hungry ?

5) Will this item hide me, or help me escape ?

6) If things get bad would a looter take this item and thus make
its value a moot point.

There are others, but I think this should be enough for most ppl.

As to where the guys at survival blog used some site ranking
to make their choices.

Survival Blog state ranks for Collapse Bugouts

As for the cities or the wild I ask myself this, which is more dangerous,
the LA riots or a national park camping trip.

You can always come back home from a camping trip.

I figured that answer out pretty quick.

Good Luck to you all !


[edit on 10-2-2009 by Ex_MislTech]



posted on Feb, 10 2009 @ 05:23 AM
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Originally posted by mattguy404
Take the automatic lack of trust in humanity that a few survivalists show with a grain of salt (although I suppose they have their reasons).

It's also important to have a sense of community, and only go it alone if you're prepared and trained.


If you can avoid going it alone trained or not it is best, no man
is an island, ie. we all get sick we all get hurt, etc etc.

You gotta sleep sometime too.

As for reasons to not trust the cities I will point to some things that
happened during hurricanes, and riots like in LA.

Now some areas will be different and ppl will be nice.

We have towns flattened here in the central US by tornadoes and
ppl go door to door helping each other.

So it depends on what your neighbors are like.

It depends on how bad it gets.

Also if some event triggers martial law and your movement is
restricted, if you did not bug out when you could, then you are not.

So a lot of it depends on if they declare martial law and shut down
all major roads, etc etc.

At that point your only option is the back roads, so have a primary
and secondary route planned.

On highways for speed, and the back roads for lack of interference.

Good Luck to you all !



posted on Feb, 10 2009 @ 05:37 AM
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reply to post by Memysabu
 
Dead on as usual, star for you man !

The grid may go down, and a good pair of water proof boots
will be worth more than that BMW that you can't get gas for
because OPEC put an Embargo on us like they did in 1970's.

All that will take is trouble with Israel and us supporting them.

Que the fat lady...LOL.



posted on Feb, 10 2009 @ 07:08 AM
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On the other hand people in the city will not know a potato or carrot if it bit them. If you should decide to stay learn guerrilla gardening. Anyplace can grow something.

A place to stay warm and dry will almost always be available. Bad weather sucks, and will kill you quicker than marauding hordes, if you don't know how to survive it. How many people here really think their coleman tent will hold up in gale force winds?

Yes people will be a problem but not as much after a few weeks. Learn to stash and cache. Don't keep all your supplies in one place, there are myriad places in the cities to hide out and to hide in, just look.

Once again I strongly stress do not ever depend on the government. When you start to take their help they will destroy and control you. Do you really want to be shuffled off to a place like the Astrodome and deal with no food, water , poor sanitation , and not be able to leave? Not to mention do you think they will protect you, not a chance, but they will take your weapons away from you when you enter their facility for the " safety of all". Oh yea you wont get them back.

Surviving in the city is an option if done right. There are those here that could do it. It wont be easy but it might even be a better option than traipsing off into the woods and not know what you are doing. Contrary to what another poster has written, it will not just be a camping trip. Hundreds get lost and die every year because they thought it was just a camping trip and what could go wrong. I know, I have been on of those that had the job of finding the bodies.

respectfully

reluctantpawn



posted on Feb, 10 2009 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by reluctantpawn
there are myriad places


My name is Nirgal and I support this use of "myriad".

That's no joke, but neither was the rest of your post. I could quite easily become the body of which you speak. Hopefully this respectful fear will keep me alive, but i'm not banking on it exclusively.



posted on Feb, 10 2009 @ 01:41 PM
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Depends on what suits you. For myself, I consider myself somewhat of a woodsman. That's where I'll be.



posted on Feb, 11 2009 @ 12:02 AM
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Op:
Well, since I do not know your locale it would be most difficult to tell you what would be the best choice ultimately.

The way I see it is this:
The major factor in in a person's ability to survive a difficult situation isn't really related to the area or surroundings (but they do play a fundamental part) but what that person is capable of doing when pushed to that limit. If a person is prepared mentally and is able to handle the stress of such a thing, he or she is light years ahead of someone who has all the tools and gear for anything. If ya can't use them, then he/she is useless.

Many people just lay down and give up when faced with a tense problem, but there are some who excel in the face of adversity... so I reckon it all comes down to mindset really. We as humans are born with this instinct of self preservation from the get go, some of it has been lost on the wayside once we became domesticated and comfortable, but it is still there. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have made it this far.

Trust those instincts man, they may save your life. That is numero uno!

Skills of course, are developed over time with trial and error... like riding a bicycle. Once you learn you are on the path to greater understanding.


I've been there, backpack loaded and all. After many a hike with pounds of gear and understanding of of the wild I can tell you it is not easy. Tough is an understatement, and I also consider myself a decent woodsman.

Now, that is just my take on it... my .02 if you will.

We are all here to help, so my advice is:
Sharpen the mind, and the knife will follow.
T-



posted on Feb, 11 2009 @ 12:14 AM
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Originally posted by Nventual
Depending on how much balls you have, surviving in the suburban area means there are plenty of "spare items" that are just "lying" around that you can "borrow" from houses. Once it's time for survival anything goes.


I agree.

Survival means 'SURVIVE OR DIE" in my opinion.

If you're a good creeper, you could always go out at night and 'borrow' from others. You need to think "is stealing wrong?" and the answer in that situation is NO.

Wood, glass, metals, cars, bikes, ropes, carry bags, lighters, matches, torches, shoes, clothes, canned foods, pets (for food), water sources, medicinal supplies......

It's all going to be there in the 'burbs, even after a long time.....you live in the suburbs and have a good idea already about where to source such items....

Maybe you could practice a little 'creeping' now?

Kidding....



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