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Enough is enough, what is going on with Israel?

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posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 06:04 PM
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Admittedly I don't understand the whole concept of us supporting the genocide going on with Israel. I'll admit to being an avid MSNBC/CNN watcher and they're acting like what we're supporting isn't a big deal. I'm trying to understand why we continue to support Israel and why no one on the news talks about how we're supporting a genocide. I thought voting Obama in to the white house would at least make us address the issue but it doesn't seem to have made that much of a difference. I'm not one for conspiracies that much (never been in this section) but am I the only one who finds what's going on a little absurd? I do understand that we're American so genocide does seem to run in our past, but isn't this blatant disregard for the loss of human life going on and our continuing objective to seemingly support the Israeli's based on land promised in what is taken by many as a fictional account?




posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 06:15 PM
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Were not supporting genocide were on the Israels side to defend themselves from agression. The Hamas loonies seem to be out to kill themselves and anybody else they can take with them. You can only break a truce so many times before you get spanked. Hamas just doesn't seem to want to behave. Pretty simple really.

mikell



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 06:34 PM
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If Isreal really wanted to commit genocide on the Palestinians don't you think with all the weapons they have at their disposal they could have done it by now? The fact is if the ones in charge in the Gaza strip would commit to peace they could all live as well as the Isreali's with open borders. As long as the palestine people have no army or guard or police force that is solely concerned with protecting their people they will never be able to choose their own destiny. Instead they have the problem that every nation with no constitution protecting the rights of their people have and that is that power hungry lunatics who are more aggressive than the moderate voices of reason run around and kill anyone who disagrees with them and without any form of protection of their human rights this will continue. Just like Iran if you declare something is unacceptable to the point you will commit to death to destroy it then fighting is all you will have.

If and when Hamas is defeated by whoever or whatever way it comes about there will be a chance for moderate voices to say lets live in peace.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by mikellmikell
Were not supporting genocide were on the Israels side to defend themselves from agression. The Hamas loonies seem to be out to kill themselves and anybody else they can take with them. You can only break a truce so many times before you get spanked. Hamas just doesn't seem to want to behave. Pretty simple really.

mikell


This is just more Zionist propaganda. It has been well established by the major news outlets that it was Israel that broke the initial ceasefire that led to the massive bombardment of civilian facilities in Gaza, and then Israel again who broke the short ceasefire after the initial bombardment. This has been proven and even Israel has reluctantly admitted as such. They also admitted to using illegal white phosphorus bombs on civilian targets. The UN has proof that they also used illegal cluster bombs as well as illegal Flechett bombs.

Palestinians are fighting for their freedom. They are forced to live in Ghettos under a system of Apartheid that was abolished in South Africa because it is extremely racist.

Lets not forget that the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories are completely illegal and in violation of several UN mandates. Israel regularly violates the Geneva Conventions and international law. They claim that the Palestinians are terrorists , when they are in fact freedom fighters. The world is finally waking up to this and Israel has become a dirty word that leaves the taste of innocent blood in the mouth. Zionism is Racism.

The sad fact is that Israel refuses to offer what it demands. They demand that Everyone recognize the right for an Israeli state yet they refuse to recognize the right of a Palestinian state. So long as Israel continues to violate international laws and illegally occupies Palestinian territory, they will never know peace.

Peace will come when Israel ends their arrogance... in other words never.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by NativeAmerican
 


There's other forces obviously at work here. Don't you find it strange that whether you had voted for Obama or McCain, that you get the same result... with only a slightly different presentation?

It's them aliens doing some medling while we're not paying attention, so we go at it and kill off a bunch of people. Unfortunately, there's not way to stop any of their plans. It's like a show, where all you can do is watch the actors play out the script.

Or at least something like that.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 08:25 PM
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reply to post by Terapin
 


Don't get me wrong. Palestine also has it's problems. I just think it's unfair that we're picking a side.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 08:36 PM
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reply to post by NativeAmerican
 


I agree that Hamas has not always done the right thing, but remember, it is the Palestinians who are oppressed, who have had their land illegally occupied, and who have been pushed into a corner with all their rights stripped. Apartheid is Racism. Zionism is racism.

The UN mandate that created Israel left 48% of the land for Palestinians. Israel has since then illegally occupied all but 12% in defiance of international law.

If you were forced to live in a ghetto with no rights, while someone else was stealing your land, you would fight back too.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 08:39 PM
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Here's what I posted in a similar thread:

" Let me give my thoughts.

Number 1, the other countries you have mentioned, do not have nukes or at least have them but have not threatened to use them.

While situations like Darfur are tragic and should absolutely be addressed by TPTB because they are, *cough,* Real genocides, they do not have the "powder keg" attribute that I/G has.

Plus, for I/G, millions of people have their religious views tied into that location and beleive that what happens there indicates end-times events. So for them, their whole worldview is literally tied into what happens in the ME. You know, the "I will bless those who bless the nation of Israel" crowd.

I think that Iraq is in some ways old news--as far as I can tell from the media reports, it is the same guerilla fighting on and on. Not much to say, as there is really not a lot new, and Obama isn't even in office so we can't speculate about how he will handle it.

But maybe most of all, this is the first time we have seen an attempt at ethnic cleansing unfolding live, on TV, with webcams, and it is dared to be called such... most of the time we hear of these things only years later."



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 08:46 PM
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reply to post by Terapin
 


Oh trust me, I understand. My name says it all
.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 08:48 PM
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Asmeone2 brings up an interesting subject...... I wonder how many people understand that Israel is making a profit from the carnage in Darfur by supplying arms towards the genocide going on there? This has been going on since Ronald Reagan was President. Israeli profits from others suffering is not anything new.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 08:51 PM
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Originally posted by Terapin
Asmeone2 brings up an interesting subject...... I wonder how many people understand that Israel is making a profit from the carnage in Darfur by supplying arms towards the genocide going on there? This has been going on since Ronald Reagan was President. Israeli profits from others suffering is not anything new.


I did not know anything about that.
I meant that there is no economic gain--aka oil--to be pursued by helping Darfur.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 08:57 PM
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reply to post by Terapin
 


Is there anything to substantiate that claim? I couldn't find anything through google.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 08:57 PM
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I'll admit to being an avid MSNBC/CNN watcher and they're acting like what we're supporting isn't a big deal.


I am not going to get into the Israel/Hams debate here. Everyone has just about made up their mind on that one and has dug in their feet.

I have to respond however on your avid viewership of MSNBC/CNN.

It is not my goal to change your mind about anything. I just hope to be able to answer your question.

The MSM is owned by a group of people who have an agenda and that agenda includes you.

They have products to sell, ideas to plant and behavior to choreograph. I bet you can think of more than one occasion that you found yourself talking with a friend, a neighbor and miraculously out of your mouth came some bit of info that you got from one of their shows. You said it and you believed it because they said it and it must be true.

The problem is that it might be all true, partially true, true with a spin or not true at all. You don’t really know because you never stopped to investigate or to find out for yourself. You have trust and you believe and that is how they get you.

If you are an intelligent free thinking individual sooner or later something that they say is not going to ring quite true.

Sooner or later they are going to say something that makes you uncomfortable even if you don’t know why.

Sooner or later you are going to realize that you are being told what they want you to know and that they have an agenda that includes you.

I am not saying that you have to give up watching TV. I did but that was my choice and everyone else has theirs to make.

I would suggest though before believing everything that they tell you maybe consider another source. Or two.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 09:11 PM
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reply to post by NightSkyeB4Dawn
 


That's the thing that lead me to make this thread. The supporting of Israel like this didn't ring well with me.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 09:26 PM
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reply to post by NativeAmerican
 


Google "Israel Darfur" there is quite a bit of info, If you google "Reagan Darfur" you will see their earlier connection as well.
Israel Arming Darfur Rebels

There has been quite a bit of research on how Israel profits from Arms sales to Chad And Sudan in the Darfuf crisis. The sad thing, is that the US gives arms to Israel and they have enough left over to sell it elsewhere. They also manufacture their own arms to sell abroad. The profits they reap from sowing the seeds of Genocide are quite large.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by Terapin

This is just more Zionist propaganda. ***

Peace will come when Israel ends their arrogance... in other words never.


You pro-palistinian/anti-semitic people really need to stop this nonsense!

Didn't you read that hate speech will not be tolarated here?

Firstly, Genocide is defined as, "Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."

Israel has not deliberately or systematically done anything to anyone. Genocide is simply not the appropriate term here.

You may disagree with the Israeli government's methods; however, they are doing what they believe is necessary to protect their citizens.

The terrorists were doing suicide/homicide bombings in civilian locations so the Israelis put up a wall to prevent them and the "palistinians" complained about the fact that Israel wanted to cut the terrorists off. Now they want to be able to enter into Israel to participate in the economy, but they do nothing to stop the terrorist.

If they Hate Israel so much, why not engage in commerce with Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. The answer: a) no one wants to transact business with them, and b) this is pretext.

They complain about settlements so Israel pulls out of Gaza completely. What happens, they ELECT a terrorist organization as their government and they start lobbing rockets at Israeli civilians.

Look at this last Gaza offensive by IDF. Notice that none of the palistinian's own bretherine in the West Bank did anything to help the brothers in Gaza. Everyone knows - even the palistinians - that Hamas is the problem and not Israel.

The truth is that no matter what Israel does, the palistinians will never be saticfied. They want Israel to cease to exist and for all the Jews to be exterminated. The problem is that after WWII, the Jews learned how to defend themselves.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 10:21 PM
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As far as I can tell, America sided itself with Israel for all the wrong reasons.
I can try explain my views but there are so many propagandists around that it isn't worth starting a thread about it, unless you're kind of a masochist.
So I salute you and jump in here since i know most of the touchy points will get ignored anyway, less harm for me but at least I will get it out of my chest.

- First, the religious stuff. So yes, america is very religious, and so are Jews, and as we often forget, sometimes to a fault in its orthodox forms. So let's see into that.
It all goes back to the fact that Israelis (where we should say zionists) say the land was given to them by God, and so it is their blood/divine right.
I quote from wikipedia : "In the course of its history, Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times."
That makes me think either God has a neverending sense of humor, or someone didn't get the message right.
In my words, I'd say, well, maybe God gave it to them, but somehow, in their history, Jews must have done something really wrong, hence God took it back from them, punished them.
Last relic from their glorious days is the wailing wall, last remnants from Solomon's temple that was destroyed by babylonians. And if you keep on looking at history, you'll see that about everyone in the region kicked serious ass : Persians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Romans... And that's leaving muslims apart with intent.
So yes, that's the sign i see in the facts, and so did they.

-Over the course of history, Jews kinda gave up on Israel and so the diaspora happened.
They went living all around the world, as a people with no state. And so it lasted until WWII. But the myth of the Jew conspiracy was there ever since Christ got cruxified. During the middle ages, Jews were forbidden to have quarters inside the city walls, they were forbidden jobs considered virtuous. And so they were allowed in the cities only at day for trading, and had to leave at night to go sleep away.

-The conspiracy inside the conspiracy. I don't see Jews as a whole, just because they ain't so. Inside, some families/tribes are considered more noble than others. When they sensed the troubles that were coming in germany, many flew away, and of course, the richer flew further from troubles. Sadly the ones that got caught in the net are the ones with poor resources, when the rich ones were seeing it all happen from far away.
I just don't buy the story that no one knew what was happening in the camps until they came accross them. It is just foolish to think so, everybody knew.
And so it is part of the guilt felt by americans for not engaging earlier that drives today's stance. But not only. It is true that the old continent, after 2 millenia still carries a lot of antisemitism, and all the nice speeches we see in the media won't change what's in people's hearts. It's been like that for ages, it's a fact. But where the old continent has a lot to make forgive and forget, america has a cleaner story on the matter,

-plus, the advantage of beeing home to the richest jews, even if they're also the less religious ones. Because, cash is the economy's blood, and that's a fact that doesn't really need to be discussed.
So, back to cash and oil.
Cash and Oil.
Because that's the real issue, not the religious crap.
And that's what makes me sick, because behind all the speech about righteousness, right to the land, self defense or proactive defense, or whatever they call it, the only issue is cash and oil.
And the rich jew families orchestrating this farce / massacre in hopes of future gains.
Just look at the story of the Exodus boat, how it was paid by wealthy zionists, how they went fetch some poor jews and they packed them on the boat like animals. And then how they manipulated the media hoping for a massacre by the english troops.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 10:21 PM
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reply to post by finemanm
 




The truth is that no matter what Israel does, the palistinians will never be saticfied. They want Israel to cease to exist and for all the Jews to be exterminated.


Uh? You do realize you shouldn't be calling someone a racist after this comment. My Palestinian friends might find it offensive. Prior to this you say that even the Palestinians know that Hamas is the problem and not Israel. So why would you say something so offensive? There's also a difference between being anti-semetic and having problems with Israel.

Understand that I do not back up Terapin's comments either. But one thing that bothers me are racists that call others racists.

It's become evident the attempt to have a civil conversation by me asking into why we are supporting Israel has just caused bickering by both parties. I honestly wish we could do without rude comments from both sides and simply get to the truth of the matter (which is what ATS was created for). /Sigh, I suppose it's just a matter of time before this topic is closed.

Prove me wrong! And let's just stick to sources and not inappropriate comments.

[edit on 5-2-2009 by NativeAmerican]



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 10:24 PM
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Because that's where the real ugliness lies, where one portion of the jew population uses the other one as meat shield, because they are considered lesser jews.
Just forget all chatter about religion, when one man sends to the slaughter what he says is his blood brother, that ain't no brother, it's cold murder, of a jew by another jew. The palestinians just happen to be caught in the middle of this mess. Where the big opera will lead the region, no clue, but at least, the lies will have to stop someday.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 10:42 PM
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Yes, I brought it far back, and I didnt talk about anything muslim, because i think it is not the issue.
What would happen if Israel destroys the Hamas ? Nothing.
Because some others would rise from their ashes.
As long as palestinians are alive and have reasons to fight, they will.
So either kill them or give them justice, that's the only way.
Israel isn't giving them what they want, so they're killing them, and yes, that's genocide, so it's the only way they're headed right now.
Israel say they'll talk only with moderates, but by the admittance of the moderates themselves, they have achieved nothing. Beeing a moderate palestinian therefore isn't a solution.

Now, maybe the knowledgeable people can answer a detail that's been bothering me :
Two years ago, media told us Hezbolla took Gilad Shalit and so Israel destroyed half of lebanon. But today we hear them say that it's Hamas who's got that Shalit guy. And so they attack Gaza. Now I ain't fool enough to believe that that soldier is anything else but an excuse and that they don't really give a **** about him. Only thing it does is confuse things further in people's heads and make them swallow their message, that for them, after all muslims are all alike. and that message of them is in itself the proof that Israel won't make peace with palestinians ever.

And now for the final joke : who is Israel at war with ?
Little look at recent facts : all hell breaks lose in gaza...
Tony Blair, with special powers starts talks
European Union starts talks
Sarkozy waves his arms in the hair along with Kouchner
More talks lead by Egyptians
Two arab summits
Iran, Syrian, Lebanon leaders speak up.

Huge diplomatic dance for about a month, for what ?
Who did Israel sign a treaty with ?
With dear conzi Rice, Rep of the U.S.A.

Facts tell me that somehow, Israel is at war with the U.S.A.

PS : Or only partners in crime.

[edit on 5-2-2009 by Chrysalis]



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