Were you born "dirty" or created in the image of God?

Badmedia ...I dont need to hear again the words you heard ..
I want to hear your born again experience ..

There is a difference in hearing the voice of God (when he is drawing you ) and when you open that door to let him in and he comes in and lives within you .
It is a very specific event and has nothing to do with voices ...........
And is more than just a few instances where you heard God speak ...

I heard God speak many a times before I was filled with his Holy Spirit .I actually heard him speak to me at about 4 or 5 years old (before I even heard of him ) He spoke to me many times after that ...even during the years I did my own thing ...........
He called me first ..(many times) I did not get born again until the day that I totally gave my whole self to him..(when I quit trying to do my own will and decided to only live for his will and his will only ) .....that was when I recieved the Holy Spirit completely and was a changed person from that day on ..(it was a spiritual and a physical event that is UNIMISTAKEABLE ) ..and you should be able to recall the very minute the Holy Spirit entered you ....(it is not just a mind thing ) ..........
Oh and I am not talking about like Benny Hinns idea or the other TV preachers that make a mockery of a truly awesome real born again experience ......................


People often consider themselves born again when in fact they are not
(we all know everyone could consider themselves born again ..New Agers,Wiccans,etc etc all believe themselves to be born again )

They may believe that they are but never went that far ...because they never gave of themselves totally to the Lord ..they only gave him what little they were willing to give up ..almost like people do when they tithe .....


[edit on 11-2-2009 by Simplynoone]

[edit on 11-2-2009 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by miriam0566

adam sin is passed on to his children just like any other genetic defect. not fair? of course not, that the very reason god sent jesus as a ransom, because its not fair.

Then God is not just and fair. We all want a fair and impartial trial.

If we are innocent in the first place, then we do not need "gift" to pardon us, right?

show me one person who has never in his life lied. (not even a little white lie) - never lost integrity. (never was forced to do soemthing they didnt want to do) - never got angry without just cause. - never lost control of himself - never did something malicious?

Even so. According to Christian theology, Adam's sin is what cause these. So these are irrelevant. It still comes back to Adam's sin.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Badmedia ...I dont need to hear again the words you heard ..
I want to hear your born again experience ..

There is a difference in hearing the voice of God (when he is drawing you ) and when you open that door to let him in and he comes in and lives within you .
It is a very specific event and has nothing to do with voices ...........
And is more than just a few instances where you heard God speak ...

I heard God speak many a times before I was filled with his Holy Spirit .I actually heard him speak to me at about 4 or 5 years old (before I even heard of him ) He spoke to me many times after that ...even during the years I did my own thing ...........
He called me first ..(many times) I did not get born again until the day that I totally gave my whole self to him..(when I quit trying to do my own will and decided to only live for his will and his will only ) .....that was when I recieved the Holy Spirit completely and was a changed person from that day on ..(it was a spiritual and a physical event that is UNIMISTAKEABLE ) ..and you should be able to recall the very minute the Holy Spirit entered you ....(it is not just a mind thing ) ..........
Oh and I am not talking about like Benny Hinns idea or the other TV preachers that make a mockery of a truly awesome real born again experience ......................

People often consider themselves born again when in fact they are not
(we all know everyone could consider themselves born again ..New Agers,Wiccans,etc etc all believe themselves to be born again )

They may believe that they are but never went that far ...because they never gave of themselves totally to the Lord ..they only gave him what little they were willing to give up ..almost like people do when they tithe .....

Well, I'm someone who believes everyone should have their own understanding and relationship. So I'm not going to deny anything of you. Hope it works out for you ok, but my relationship is completely different.

I am not someone who is exactly 'struggling with my religion/beliefs' but more someone who is trying to make some semblance of sense of.....well, perhaps everything. I am trying to question and understand for myself, not simply believe what I am told but use much of what others have learned along with what I know (as much as one can ever truly 'know' anything) to come to my own realisations.
When I hear or read people talking about 'the truth' or 'the way' it really dims my view of either 'religion' or 'belief' in God, Jesus or even simply a god.
The notion that there is only one path for everyone to take, or one truth that we all remain ignorant to until ultimate enlightenment is something that strikes me as too easy, too simple.

From what I have tried to understand or grasp of the world I live in and the concept of what is above and below me (metaphorically) I feel that although we were not born dirty from original sin, we are neither born pure. I feel we start of on middle ground, God (or whatever being/energy/source you believe in) sees us and knows we exist but it is up to us to prove to him that we are worthy of any attention, be that attention love or rewards.
I can't imagine that there can be one true path to god (a deliberate use of the lower case) for we are all born different. We may all be cut from the same cloth but the life we are born into determines the shape and wear that cloth gets.
Is it harder for a man who has nothing or a man who has everything to believe in the divine? It is a question I feel might reside at the heart of a notion (or at least I seem to think it does). Our actions are based on our situations and surroundings. One man's actions in love, respect or praise of god may pale in comparison when directly compared to anothers, but in context of that person's life and situation then it may be unfathomably greater in spirit and will.

Perhaps I think that god is warey of us all, he does not mistrust us from original sin but believes that we must prove ourselves in any way and for each of us that can mean very different things. For each of us different things are precious, be it time, money, love, respect or trust; we are loathe to give up any or one of them freely.
As long as one's actions are pure then perhaps we can be accepted or trusted by whatever out there tests us. This is not to say that I think we are not allowed to sin, for tests are not always meant to be passed, but god will see te truth, I feel, he will know the depths of your heart and your soul.

I apologise if this seems rambling and not very much on topic but somethimes it is easier for me to write down my thoughts in an attempt to understand them more.

reply to post by badmedia



You must be born again Badmedia ....if you have never had a similar experience like Pentecost ..then you have not been born again ..

The Holy Spirit is real ..it is the spirit of God that literally envelopes your entire being ..he enters you and lives in you (and you literally physically and spiritually feel him enter you ) ...,it is the greatest purest light that you can ever imagine ...until you have experienced it there really is no describing it ......
The Holy Spirit posesses (Lives within you ) you from that day forward ...(he still allows you your individuality) ...that is how he teaches you all things FROM WITHIN YOU >....

He is a voice from the inside of you ..not from the outside ..and it is coming from the heart not the mind ...


He is the comforter that the Lord said he would send to us ....
You have to pray to recieve it and you also have to believe in order to recieve it ..

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.



I didnt figure you would know what being born again really was .. ...


PS ...You do not want to be without a garment ...(the Holy Spirit is that garment which clothes you spiritually ) ........
Look up in the concordance what ENDUED means ..(it means to be spiritually clothed from on high) Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.



[edit on 11-2-2009 by Simplynoone]

Don't you find it interesting that most of the religions on the planet see you as being born dirty? It's an odd posturing, is it not, for a creature of divine creation? Does it even sound reasonable that you would be born into a spiritual system where you didn't have a chance when you arrived because of something that happened eons before you got here? Does this really sound like being "made in the image of God?"

~ Kryon, Book 10, page 234 ~

Indeed. Channeled messages may be a part of a scam, but they do hit upon truths from time to time.

Yes, somewhat. But I can see Kyrons message as just another interpretation of a/all Religious interpretation/s of existence and being. Hitting upon truths reminds me of an old saying though, "the devil will tell you a thousand truths to selll you just one lie".

According to Christianity, you do not have a chance before you were even born. Before anybody is even born, he or she is doomed to an eternity in hell.

According to God and Jesus it is something different, but thats just what I have found personally, I guess its how you channel them?

Another good point here is that we were "made in the image of God". How can we, in the images of God, be doomed to hell?

We may be made in Gods Image, but that is it I guess. I mean, are we made to act like God, as well as in an image of God. Are we doomed to hell? I misesd that memo.

Therein lies the conspiracy of religion - we are made to feel dirty and guilty of our existence and made to depend on external help to make us feel better - i.e., through priests, salvation, reading the bible, etc.

Maybe, but getting channeled messages from an external Kyron that support a belief that religion is a conspiracy to make us need it to feel better is kind of funny don't you think. I don't think that a belief in religion generally gaurentees a better feeling by simply believing, I think historically people have been routinuely hurt by their religious beliefs and convictions. I think it helps people navigate the infinitely beautiful and complex mystery of existence whilst providing a solid and rational framework to help support our day to day life, struggles, suffering, hopes, joys etc.

They do not want us to realize the truth and empower ourselves and realize our true power and selves.

I cannot agree with that. Given that we have such a wealth of knowledge that is increasing exponationally, that our access to alternative views, beliefs and arguements against these religions is more available than ever before, I think that the view that the power of religions to enslave or brainwash people is grossly over exagerrated. But thats just me.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
Let's say that a child has inherited AIDS from parents. Should we punish this child for having AIDS? Yes, let's spank... no torture this child for that. Let this child learn the lesson of his or her parents.

the point you are ignoring is that sometimes this happens. children do suffer for the sins of their parents.

no its not fair. but god agrees with you.

if a person is born a sinner and deserves death (hell put simply is the grave, not fire) but they dont want that fate, then how can god help them WITHOUT breaking is own rules and standards of justice. (i know that might be a surprise, but yes, god has a sense of justice he must uphold)

this is why he sent jesus as a ransom. if through adam sin entered mankind, then through jesus sin would be taken away. this way people have the opportunity of showing their desire to be close to god.

why do some not benefit from this? the simple answer is that they dont want to. they are taught about god but feel they dont want to be close to him.

can we be close to god without jesus? you can try, but likely no, because to try to do so is to ignore gods own justice. its like being sentenced to a crime, but the judge has mercy and lowers your term to a simple probation, but then you ignore the terms of the probation. would the judge's patience last forever?

reply to post by atlasastro

According to God and Jesus it is something different, but thats just what I have found personally, I guess its how you channel them?

We may be made in Gods Image, but that is it I guess. I mean, are we made to act like God, as well as in an image of God. Are we doomed to hell? I misesd that memo.

I was a Christian for 20 years. I was raised to believe that we are dirty and are doomed to hell (eternal punishment) and we deserved it. We must be "cleaned" with the blood of Jesus in order to be justified and clean in sight of God. This is one of major theologies in Christianity, especially in Baptist. There are many verses to support this doctrine.

I am surprised that you have not learned of this.

I think that the view that the power of religions to enslave or brainwash people is grossly over exagerrated. But thats just me.

Have you ever seen televangelists? That is one of many examples.

reply to post by miriam0566

the point you are ignoring is that sometimes this happens. children do suffer for the sins of their parents.

Yes I understand your point. Children do suffer sickness from their parents.

BUT, are they to be punished for their parents' sickness? Are children considered "dirty" in parents' eyes?

if a person is born a sinner and deserves death (hell put simply is the grave, not fire) but they dont want that fate

Yes, they do teach that (the wages of sin is death). However, what happens to them after they die according to Christian theology? They suffer eternal fire as a punishment for being born in sin.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
BUT, are they to be punished for their parents' sickness? Are children considered "dirty" in parents' eyes?.....

Yes, they do teach that (the wages of sin is death). However, what happens to them after they die according to Christian theology? They suffer eternal fire as a punishment for being born in sin.

ok, now i see what you are saying.

the problem is, the wages of sin is death, not hellfire. meaning if a person sins, they suffer death as punishment (or consequence depending how you look at it).

we all die because of adamic sin. death was never part of the equation before adam.

hellfire was something the church added later because they started to teach that the soul was immortal. so if good souls go to heaven, then bad souls have to go somewhere right?

the problem is the soul is not immortal. the bible never says that. in fact it says the opposite.

the benefit of christ's ransom is that when we die, we are not forgotten. the book of acts talks about a resurrection of the righteous AND the unrighteous, meaning that most people who have ever lived will be given a "fair trial" in that they will be brought to a point were they can be judged for their own works, not adam's (i hope that makes sense).

unfortunately some people will not partake in this resurrection. but likely its because these people, after knowing the truth, decide willingly to make that decision before benefiting from the ransom, meaning they already know what they will choose, these people dont need a second chance.

they dont go to hell, they go to the lake of fire (which hell is thrown into also) which depicts eternal destruction, not torment. nonexistence

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Ok Christ and Badmedia (yes it is me again lol) .....

We are important to GOD ....we do matter in the scheme of things (all creation does) so nobody should consider themselves as nobody or insignificant in regards to the Lord ...As he is the creator of the entire creation and he loves his work (us) .................

Another thing ...Jesus was different than we are ..as I have said before he is THE ONLY BEGOTTEN son of God (One of a kind) ..he was also the FIRST of the FIRSTFRUITS(There are more firstfruits to come) .....he is also the HEIR to the kingdom of GOD ...and we are JOINT HEIRS with him (ONLY HIS FAITHFUL ARE) ..(We are not above the Master nor are we below him as we will RULE WITH HIM ) ................he describes himself as our brethren (so he is family and is also the FIRSTBORN who is HEIR to the KINGDOM) ......we are not the firstborn ....we are not even part of the first of the firsfruits(those who rose with him were all of the OT prophets ..they are the first of the firstfruits of Christ ) ............(we are firstfruits but not the first of them) ...

'
Jesus the Heir ........
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

We are only ADOPTED JOINT HEIRS THROUGH CHRIST >>..
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Thanks again for bringing your confusion to the light that we may examine it in a way that dispels the insane notions you hold about your self and about GoD.

I am a joint heir. Of course I am important to GoD. Without me, GoD would not be complete. So don't even talk to me about not being the same as Jesus. It is still the time of the firstfruits. Jesus was first to accept and declare himself the maker and unmaker of the worlds. Perhaps I am the second or third or fourth. What does it matter? First or last, all will come to the truth. And identifying rightfully with the truth, Jesus awoke to "know thySelf" through listening and practicing and teaching the "Spirit of Truth". And he awoke through merging as one with that Spirit by laying down the untrue "life" of personhood, which is false.

As such, he was the "firstfruit" of a tree [of Life] that will bear many such fruits of like kind. We are perhaps 2000 years into a million year process of bringing this tree to full fruition. So, I am among the first fruits as well, among those who welcome the "Spirit of Truth" to transform ones mind. And when fully transformed, I will join Jesus in fulfilling a role in salvations plan, without which, no one shall be saved.

Mark my words. Put them in a three ringed binder and number every sentence. Don't even bother gnashing your scriptural teeth at me. You can't tear me down, or crucify me more than you already have. Its time for you to be quite and listen for the "voice" that only the "sheep" can hear. On the other hand, be as willful as you please, and believe what you want. It makes no difference to the truth, and has no meaningful consequence in the larger scheme of things. You can't stop salvation, try as you might.

Christ!





[edit on 11-2-2009 by Christ!]

Deaf ...if you were ever truly a christian you would have moved past what the church teaches preaches and you would have sought the Lord God on your own in your own time (not at church ) ....and eventually would have been born again and would understand then what the spirit sayeth in the scriptures ........
And the purpose of why Christ had to come and will come again etc etc......

I was only in need of church when I first believed that Jesus existed ..
The church is really only a vessel to teach you the mere Milk of the word .
the Meat can only be gotten by the Holy Spirit sent by Jesus Christ to you once you give your whole heart soul and mind to SEEKING THE LORD AND HIS PURPOSE .................

If you seek you shall find ..regardless of how horrible churches can be or are .Regardless of what they did or did not teach you etc etc ...
You will not find what you need in Church ...you must seek him on your own in your own time ..........I am not going to say though that he would not use a church to actually draw him to you ..because he can and he does ..but after that initial intruduction ..your pretty much on your own after that and need to seek him on your own ..with prayer ...with reading of his word ....and a humble heart and a willingness to obey ........

What do you think it means when it says ...WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION ...........the church cannot give you salvation neither can it lead you to salvation because they are mostly all carnal minded people seeking anything but a personal relationship with GOD through the Lord Jesus Christ.
And most of them (as you can see) know not what it even means to be Born Again ....

Originally posted by Simplynoone
I was only in need of church when I first believed that Jesus existed ..
The church is really only a vessel to teach you the mere Milk of the word .
the Meat can only be gotten by the Holy Spirit sent by Jesus Christ to you once you give your whole heart soul and mind to SEEKING THE LORD AND HIS PURPOSE .................

There is no need for more propaganda, posturing, posing and pretending. Many there are who say, "Lord, Lord...", constantly gnashing their teeth about things "holy". But the only things holy to you are things which are separated, different, unique, special, and of their own will. This is actually the opposite of holy, and only "sacred" to those who love their own way.

The Holy Spirit does not teach the things you teach, so they must be coming from an unholy spirit. Blessed are they who are poor in unholy spirit. Those will be thirsty for the Holy Spirit, and will be satisfied and not confused. Speak all you want about your "holy" spirit. All your speaking will not make an unholy spirit holy.

The Holy Spirit is everyone's inheritance. Jesus does not "give" it, except to give you awareness of what you already have, and how and where to look. In this way, I am "giving" you the Holy Spirit, by contrasting the holy "voice" with what is actually unholy, but considered by you to be "right", "true" and "sacred"...in your own judgement.

Everyone has the Holy Spirit regardless of their beliefs about GoD, Jesus, the Holy Spirit or themSelf. Truth is true whether you believe it or not, and God makes no bargains. The Holy Spirit is not purchased by your meager little belief in what you think the Holy Spirit represents. You can neither buy nor sell what you've been given since before time ever imposed itself upon eternity. You must merely seek and find that which is Holy and True. But if you seek your own way, you will find your own unholy spirit which testifies to lies since the beginning...seeking its own purpose.

Christ!




[edit on 11-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
What do you think it means when it says ...WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION ...........the church cannot give you salvation neither can it lead you to salvation because they are mostly all carnal minded people seeking anything but a personal relationship with GOD through the Lord Jesus Christ.
And most of them (as you can see) know not what it even means to be Born Again ....

Neither do you know what it means to be born again at this juncture in working out your own salvation. You have already admitted that you are a very carnal minded person. Do you want me to find where you posted that? What then do you have to teach those who thirst for the Spirit of Truth that we may "know thySelf"?

What you call a personal relationship is worthless and carnal and misleading. It is merely for maintaining a separate identity from Jesus, and for perpetuating personhood as you please. You are simply boasting of something that has no value toward salvation. You are Christ or you are not. So its personal, not a "personal relationship". There is no "relationship" between Self and Self except that they are equal and the same. If you are not relating as an equal, you are not working out your salvation. And as you advocate others not relate as equals, you block them from entering the Kingdom of God.

Christ!



[edit on 11-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Deaf ...if you were ever truly a christian you would have moved past what the church teaches preaches and you would have sought the Lord God on your own in your own time (not at church ) ....and eventually would have been born again and would understand then what the spirit sayeth in the scriptures ........
And the purpose of why Christ had to come and will come again etc etc......

"Spirit sayeth..."?

Give me a break!

The unholy spirit "sayeth" scriptures.
The Holy Spirit unsayeth them.

Therefore, you hide behind the scriptures that sayeth what you would hear.
And what you hear is that you are a seperate person, made a person by God, unique, different, and special.
If this is what you want to hear, there are many scriptures that will sssssayeth it smoothly.

The Holy Spirit need not hide behind scriptures, being the Lord of words.
Feel free to write down in a book what I am saying.
Put it in a three ringed binder.
Number every sentence.
Call it Holy Scripture.
Keep it nearby always.

Christ!



[edit on 11-2-2009 by Christ!]

That is your opinion now isnt it Christ ? ....
And we all have them ...

If you do not think that you need the Holy Spirit which even Jesus himself recieved the Holy Spirit when he was baptized by John .........then that is between you and him ..

Why do you think the scriptures say ..HE HAS EARS TO HEAR let him HEAR what the spirit sayeth .......you have to have ears to hear ...(spiritual hearing comes only through the Holy Spirit the COMFORTER who is sent TO YOU when you ask for him into your heart mind body and soul) ........

Also why do you think so many people can read that bible and come to so many different conclusions ? It is because it can only be understood by having the Holy Spirit in you to discern the meaning of the scriptures for you ....

The logical minded man will never be able to discern the supernatural things of God ..

GOD IS SPIRIT >..you cannot even know the spirit of GOD lest you are also SPIRITUAL ..


This Jesus Christ that you know is the same as the NEW age Christ being taught and preached in every new age circle and even the gnostic circles etc ...(Oh and many Christian circles in our times) .......plain and simple .
You speak of another Jesus than the one in scriptures ..(which is why you all avoid the scriptures like the plaque) .......................


[edit on 11-2-2009 by Simplynoone]

[edit on 11-2-2009 by Simplynoone]

Originally posted by miriam0566

they dont go to hell, they go to the lake of fire (which hell is thrown into also) which depicts eternal destruction, not torment. nonexistence

Yes, nonexistence.
Every time I declare that "the world" does not exist, hell comes a step closer to utter anihilation...not torment. For the world is hell, mark my words. It is a place where there is much gnashing of teeth, and the worm never dies. It is certainly not "within" the Kingdom of God...so, it must be "outside" the gate of Heaven. And what is outside the gate of Heaven? What else is there besides Heaven?

Hell is a belief.
So,
The world is a belief.

Believe me.

Christ!

Originally posted by Simplynoone
That is your opinion now isnt it Christ ? ....
And we all have them ...

If you do not think that you need the Holy Spirit which even Jesus himself recieved the Holy Spirit when he was baptized by John .........then that is between you and him ..

"Private interpretation" is "opinion" and means nothing.
You are interpreting scripture privately, so it is meaningless.
The Holy Spirit's interpretation is meaningful, and for all.
You cannot understand the Holy Spirit's interpretation until you understand what you are doing.
You are interpreting privately.
You interpret to preserve yourself...your persona.
I am interpreting with the Holy Spirit, judging rightly between sheep and goats, wheat and tares...between true and fake.

Listen and learn.

Christ!

[edit on 11-2-2009 by Christ!]

Well then please explain to me Christ why Jesus Christ himself had to be BAPTIZED with the HOLY SPIRIT (WHICH DESCENDED ON HIM LIKE A DOVE FROM HEAVEN ) if it was already in us all to begin with ???

We recieved the breath of life at birth ..which we all have ....we do not have the Holy Spirit of God because it was not yet GIVEN until JESUS CHRIST rose to heaven ...
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.




[edit on 11-2-2009 by Simplynoone]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
If you do not think that you need the Holy Spirit which even Jesus himself recieved the Holy Spirit when he was baptized by John .........then that is between you and him ..

Then you do not understand baptism, nor the symbolism of water immersion, nor the Holy Spirit, nor Jesus.
You have it all confused...
...because you are interpreting privately, without the aid of the Holy Spirit.

I am interpreting with the Holy Spirit, depending on his way of thinking, in order to work out my salvation.
This is the same path that Jesus followed.
Jesus washed his mind with the words of the "Spirit of Truth".
When the washing was complete, he knew himself as the beloved "Son of God".
I too am the beloved Son of God, nearing the end of my own baptism.
You think I don't depend on the voice of the Holy Spirit in this process?

The Holy Spirit has been with us since the beginning of time.
And we have made this world and wandered in it, despite its will to guide us away and out of it.
The world is a kind of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
It is contrary in every way to what is the "Spirit of Truth".
We have shut our ears for millenium against the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit does not come when we start listening.
The Holy Spirit has been with us always, and will be with us until the end of the world.
We merely hear the Holy Spirit when he speaks.
We do not hear when we do not listen.

Listen and learn.

Christ!