Were you born "dirty" or created in the image of God?

We were made in the image of god, not the spiritual perfectness. only and adam and eve were, until they blew it. We are born sinless, thanx to jesus. God cant sin or b corrupted, if he could, wouldnt he be like satan? Thats why satan is bad and god is good.

Originally posted by Christ!
Its important to understand that the "devil" was sinning before the foundation of the earth.....

So, man is the effect of sin. Sin is not an effect of man....

The devil can be thought of as a mental power that lives on belief in lies....

The devil is not a living being, in the sense that the Son of God is Life itself....

The devil is like a toy or tool the Son of God uses to have f.u.n. [acronym: unconscious fantasy]. The devil is like a potion that turns Dr. Jekyl into Mr. Hyde. As the Son of God drinks this potion, he is transformed in to everything within the devils domain....

But hell is the manifestation of a "house divided against itself"...so, hell cannot stand......

Birth is the effect of sin.....

please tell me where in the bible you are getting this stuff because ive read it many times, and never saw any of this.

reply to post by miriam0566

So God is not omniscient?
I have some troubles with the way the word is used/abused. If God is/was truly omniscient then he would have all knowledge, even the decisions or outcomes that would be made prior to them being made.

If he is not omniscient then perhaps we were made more in the image of God than some people would like to think. If even God can 'fail' then why are we so surprised that we can?

[edit on 9-2-2009 by ElKapitan]

Originally posted by ElKapitan
So God is not omniscient?
I have some troubles with the way the word is used/abused. If God is/was truly omniscient then he would have all knowledge, even the decisions or outcomes that would be made prior to them being made.

god being omniscient has nothing to do with freewill.

people think it does because they tend to think in absolutes. god knowing what choice you will make doesnt change the fact that its still your decision and that you will have to bare the responsibility of your decision.

god created adam and eve perfect and without any inclination to sin. satan lied to them and told them that something better awaited them if they disobeyed god. they choose to believe him.

yes, god understood that would happen. but its not a flaw in his design. he designed them with freewill.

in fact satan asserted that when push came to shove, all man would use their freewill against god. job 2;[4] And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

jesus was perfect too, and he has freewill also. but he kept his relationship with god, unselfishly. jesus proved that god´s design wasnt flawed. that there would be people who although have freewill, would still choose to follow god.

Originally posted by miriam0566
please tell me where in the bible you are getting this stuff because ive read it many times, and never saw any of this.

Hi miriam,

Try a "red letter" edition.
What I mean by that is...
before you read the bible, realize that between the "old testament" and the "new testament", the "truth" is "crucified".
The old testament is a nail in the hand of the truth,
the new testament is a nail in the other hand.
The words of each collection of documents form nails which kill "the Word".
The net effect is that the truth is mangled beyond recognition.
The truth bleeds through the confusing words that would nail it down to the ground.
So,
In order to see the truth, you must read between the lines.
Read what bleeds through.

Here are a few authentic sayings that bleed through:

The parable of the prodigal son, not including the addition of a jealous brother at the end of the story. That was added, and not of Jesus. [This is the true story of genesis, existence, and exodus from the world. The cross and resurrection is the same story, told in parody].

"Call no man father" [means, do not trace ones genesis back to man's maker. Place no truth in human geneology. It is a *lie* of the devil, man's maker].

"A house divided against itself cannot stand" [the world is the effect of a mental conflict of Christ-sized - cosmic - proportions. The conflict cannot last forever, so, the world will "pass away"...ie. 'cannot stand'. This describes a kind of divine schizophrenia. Truth on one side, lies on the other. Heaven and hell (the world) in the same mind...cannot stand. ].

Jesus also said that the world is like a house built on sand. He is talking about the foundation of the world, built on many lies.

The foundation of the world is built on the destruction of the truth.
In revelations it talks about the truth as "slain before the foundations of the world". So, the world is a lie from beginning to end. The biblical story of genesis is propaganda in a war against the truth. Truth is always the first casualty of war. Such is the world.


"Whatsoever you do to the least of these my brethren, you do to me". [This is a oneness statement that shows how to forgive. Forgiveness sees past the masks of bodyhood, and overlooks the actions of personhood. None of it is true. What is true is what is hidden by such masks: Christ, the Truth, the Life.].

The oneness statements in the later part of the gospel of John.
*We are one, just as he is one with the Father. He is in the Father and the Father is in him. Likewise, we are in the Father and the Father is in us. *

"The Kingdom of God is within you". [This obliterates the idea that anyone can be a body or a person. ]

"In Christ, there is no male of female, no Jew or Greek, no slave or free" [there are no persons in Christ. There is only Christ, and nothing but Christ].

"Upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". [talking about the mutual recognition of the "Son of God" in each other.]

Jesus, breaking a loaf of bread, gave it to his desciples to eat, telling them that it symbolized his body. [he is refering to Christ, the Truth...the totality of Reality...the One...which is broken as the *many* live off of its broken oneness. The "Lords" supper is a reminder that as the many live, the One dies. Therefore, the many must die, that the One may live. The many is expressed by bodyhood/personhood. This is the "life" that each of the many must lay down, if they are to truly live as their truth, the Christ].

"Do not hide your light under a bushel" [talking about the fact that the Kingdom of God is within, and it is like true Light. The Light is hidden by the universe, and further hidden by bodies. Beyond bodies is Christ, the truth Light of the world. Our beliefs/unbeliefs about Christ hides the light.]

In the gospel of John we find the definition of "sin", "righteousness" and "judgment".

Sin = unbelief in Christ.
Righteousness = return to *Our Father*.
Judgement = "prince of this world" does not exist, and is meaningless.

Sin is not the result of behavior. Behavior is the result of beliefs. Unbelief in Christ is what makes the world, its images, and the behavior of the images. The whole world is a kind of unbelief in Christ, so the whole world is a "sin". Sin is a big lie. Truth takes away sin by asserting the truth where sin is thought to be the truth instead. All "bad" behavior stems from an unbelief in Christ, which goes way back to before the foundations of the world. The "prodigal son" is the *name* of what does not belief in Christ. The prodigal son denies it is the Son of God. The net effect is that the prodigal son becomes the "son of man". This is why Jesus says, "call no man father". That is to deny true Sonship as does the prodigal son. The prodigal son is responsible for the making of the world. Another name for the prodigal son is "Adam". We all derive our beliefs from the prodigal son. This is why we are "born in sin".

Elsewhere it is said, "A freind of the world is an enemy of God". [people think that "the world" is defined as bad behavior. That attitude merely perpetuates a lie. The world is all that appears to be separated, differentiated, different, unique, and special. This includes everything with a form, anything ranked among a heirarchy, anything less than the totality, or anything within "time". Time itself is a manifestation of unbelief in eternity, which is the domain of Christ, for Christ is eternal].

Righteousness is simply to go home. There is no other right thing to do when it is understood that the whole world is the prodigal son, away from home! That is why "righteousness" is defined as to return to the Father.

Judgement is upon the "prince of this world". The judgement is this: the prince of this world does not exist, so its works do not exist, so everything it ever made was a lie, including men and their actions. These were made to deny God, and prove that God could be changed. And if God could be changed, God could kill and be killed. Since the world does not exist, sin is a lie. The truth is still true, and there is nothing but innocence as the truth. In this way, the truth takes away the sins of the world.

Do you need more biblical confirmation?

Christ!



[edit on 9-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by miriam0566
god created adam and eve perfect and without any inclination to sin. satan lied to them and told them that something better awaited them if they disobeyed god. they choose to believe him.

yes, god understood that would happen. but its not a flaw in his design. he designed them with freewill.

in fact satan asserted that when push came to shove, all man would use their freewill against god. job 2;[4] And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

jesus was perfect too, and he has freewill also. but he kept his relationship with god, unselfishly. jesus proved that god´s design wasnt flawed. that there would be people who although have freewill, would still choose to follow god.

The "Son of God" was created perfect. Cannot add to the perfection or take away from it without, theoretically, destroying it. Theoretically, the perfection of God's true creation can be destroyed. Man is the expression of this theory. The theory is that something can be added to perfection. Such is the world....added to perfection. This "destroys" the perfection...in theory. As such, the world is a manifestation of unbelief in the perfection of God's Son...his one and only true creation. The unbelief in the perfection of the Son of God is the belief that something can be added to it that would finally make it perfect. The world, as such, is the manifestation of a lust for more than the totality of perfection. What is more than omnipotence? What is more than perfectly free? What is more than total knowledge? All of this "more" leads to less...leads to weakness, unfreedom, and ignorance. Such is the basis of the world and its lies about the Truth.

In order to understand the Truth, you must make a very focused effort to let go of the belief that man - male and female - is part of the perfection that is Christ. You must allow an opening in your closed mind to let in a little seed of faith in the Truth as concieved of by God. All else is concieved of by the devil, including the concept of male and female. There is no male or female in the One Whole perfection that God has given as Christ. Christ is not different from God, being equal in every way. Man, quite obviously, is not like God. Nor are *many* like the *One*. The true God has no images, and makes no graven images. There are no imaginary symbols within God, for all is one Reality. Man is not a Reality, but an "image". An image is a front, a mask, a fake, a posing, a pretending, an acting of actors. An image is fundamentally a lie. An image is something imagined, "graven" within imagination. The world is imagined as all that is added to the perfection of Christ. The net effect is "hell". So, the world is really hell masquerading as God's creation.

The "immaculate conception" is the willingness to let the Holy Spirit seed your mind with the Truth. Adam and Eve are part of a big lie. And the big lie exists within a closed, darkened mind. The world is like a closed mind with a sign outside that says, "Truth, Keep Out". It is a private mind, and every mind in it is made in the image of the closed, private mind that keeps the truth out. So, you must open your mind as the truth stands at the door and knocks. This is the only way to give birth to Truth in the world, for otherwise, there is no Truth in the world, nor in your mind. This is the Truth that was never concieved of by man. For the Truth is beyond man's imagination, for it is also beyond the imagination of the devil, in whose image is made the world and its images. The world is the devils immasculate conception. It belittles the Son of God.

The world is a "tomb" for the Son of God. It is a dark, closed, mind that lies to itself with its unbelief in Christ, and its beliefs in all that is beyond [not] Christ. What is beyond Life? Death. What is beyond Truth? Lies...illusion. So, "from womb to tomb", the world is the conception of the perfectly imperfect, the wholly insane, the totally untrue. As such, the "son of man" is "born to die". And this is simply a manifestation of unbelief in Christ. Unbelief in Christ manifests first as something that can die (a body), and then, as something that does die (a body). All of these manifestations are lies against the Truth. Jesus proved that they are all lies by his resurrection from the dead...not as the "son of man" but as the truth: The Son of God. The resurrection is a sign of how the world ends. It ends when the sleeping Son of God wakens from a dream of limitations, bodies, exile and death. This is the story of the "prodigal son"...the "son of man". What awakens is always what sleeps. What sleeps is the Son of God. What awakens is the Son of God. All that is in between is a dream that does not exist, because it is not true and will never be the Truth.

Christ!







[edit on 9-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Christ!
In order to see the truth, you must read between the lines.
Read what bleeds through.

problem is that the examples you cite make little sense. your basically adding what you feel like adding

for example, ill just pick out one...

Originally posted by Christ!
"Call no man father" [means, do not trace ones genesis back to man's maker. Place no truth in human geneology. It is a *lie* of the devil, man's maker].

what? why?

[edit on 9-2-2009 by miriam0566]

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Christ!
In order to see the truth, you must read between the lines.
Read what bleeds through.

problem is that the examples you cite make little sense. your basically adding what you feel like adding

for example, ill just pick out one...

Originally posted by Christ!
"Call no man father" [means, do not trace ones genesis back to man's maker. Place no truth in human geneology. It is a *lie* of the devil, man's maker].

what? why?

[edit on 9-2-2009 by miriam0566]

To this I'll "add" a conversation Jesus had between the Pharisee. They were boasting about their human geneology tracing back to Abraham. And by implication, they were tracing their geneology back to Adam. But Jesus rebukes them saying that thier father was the devil, a liar from the beginning. Jesus did not trace geneology through humans. He said things like, "before Abraham was, I am..." He states here that he was always existent as the Son of God, without beginning, and without end.

Jesus talked alot about denying each one his so-called "life". He talked about denying family ties...if anyone wanted to become a desciple of his. He talked about "leaving father and mother". He called his own mother "woman".

Why? Because all human geneology traces back to gOd, the maker of man. And this is the father of all lies, "since the beginning". Adam and Eve is a hoax. Human geneology is a hoax because it is a "work" of the "devil".

You see, to be a human is to sacrifice the truth. So all humans are "Christ crucified". All have "fallen short of the glory of God". That is, Christ become flesh is a sacrifice of glory, and falls way short of the perfection that our true Father gave to us as our inheritance in our true creation.

We have taken that inheritance and become "flesh"...including "man, beast, and every creeping thing". This is the story of the "prodigal son". The prodigal son is "Christ crucified". Meaning, the whole concept of male and female, animals, creeping things...the whole world makes a mockery of God's true creation, and kills everything in it, even the stars. Everything in the world is changing. As it changes, it dies. This is called the "life cycle" but actually it more like a lie cycle.

The truth sets us free from this cycle.

Christ!

Originally posted by miriam0566
problem is that the examples you cite make little sense. your basically adding what you feel like adding

So I've said the world is "Christ crucified". Does this make sense? I'm not saying it makes sense either. But if it is too foolish to consider, then how will you "identify" with the "cross" that you may be saved? How would you "take up your cross and follow me"? Salvation is from the foolish nonsense of the cross. So, salvation is to be saved from all that Christ crucified symbolizes. It symbolizes the whole world, and all of its nonsense. The concept of human genesis and geneology is part of that nonsense. It makes no sense to the true God. So salvation is from nonsense.

Christ!

reply to post by Christ!


Christ!, don't you think there is a slight chance that you might be imposing your own thoughts on the material as you are interpreting it?

Everything your proposing, seems to be your own subjective feelings rather than a true critical analysis of "The Word".

[edit on 2/9/2009 by JPhish]

Originally posted by JPhish
reply to post by Christ!

 

Christ!, don't you think there is a slight chance that you might be imposing your own thoughts on the material as you are interpreting it?

Everything your proposing, seems to be your own subjective feelings rather than a true critical analysis of "The Word".

[edit on 2/9/2009 by JPhish]

I'm here to set the prisoners free. That includes the message of Jesus, imprisoned by "context" imposed upon it. There is a big difference between "the Word" and a collection of many words. Call the many words what you want. If they do not impart the meaning that Jesus intended for his words to have, then they imprison his meaning within the bars of their so-called context. I set the meaning free, by correctly interpreting the parables and parodies...by "reading" the signs and symbols.

What do we do when we hear a parable? Do we not *interpret* the parable? Likewise, we must interpret not only what Jesus said and did, but what is said and done about him. This poses more than just a parable...but also a puzzle. Think of the words in the new testament like a Rubrics Cube. Jesus solved the puzzle and passed it on. However, as each interpreted the puzzle according to his own *private* interpretation...through the colors of each ones mental filters...through a multicolored glass dimly viewed...each "fixed" the puzzle Jesus solved until it was thoroughly mixed up. And so, the readers of this collection have inherited a mixed up Rubrics Cube. The catch phrases are there. The words are there. But they are used in ways that subvert the meaning Jesus gave them.

I interpret according to the Holy Spirit.
This is not my own *private* interpretation.
I translate the interpretations i am given by the Spirit of Truth.
I translate for everyday language.
What i say is plain.
But it is not acceptable to those who still wish the world were true.

Fact is, many who scribed in Jesus name still wished the world were true.
So they disqualified themselves as desciples, and qualified themselves as "enemies of God". One cannot believe in the world and believe in Christ at the same time. There is no way to serve two masters and please both. But this is what the scribes of the NT are mainly doing, attempting to mix and match what cannot be reconciled.

They do not do this deliberately. They simply pass on what they heard the way they undersood it. They understood to the degree than they had renounced the world. The scribes, for the most part, had not renounced the world.

There is no compromise when it comes to the truth that saves. Where small minds misinterpret is where they decide, for themselves, what salvation is, and how it is achieved. They always make mistakes when they try to save what is unsavable.

First, Jesus must be understood correctly. Then, they must be correctly applied in practice. And in this way, each comes to salvation.

Most here have not even come to a correct understanding. Only then may one "follow" the Master, with practice.



Christ!




[edit on 9-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Clearskies
It's a virus that affects EVERYONE.
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of G-d."

Absolute copswallop.

I think its more about organised religion just pulling the old 'invent a problem to fix it' scam.

I think Mr Nietzsche may have had a point here:
"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad."
Friedrich Nietzsche



[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by JPhish
reply to post by Christ!

 

Christ!, don't you think there is a slight chance that you might be imposing your own thoughts on the material as you are interpreting it?

As long as one thinks himself in the world, there is always that chance. And that is because the way the human mind thinks will be wrong 100% of the time, when it does not think "with the mind of Christ". So i remain *vigilant* to that possibility. When it comes time to press "post reply", i have a deep assurance...a sense of certainty, about the words i use. I measure them carefully, and most times, edit for clarity. The result is that I would not go back and change any of my posts.

Don't you think there may have been a slight chance that the original scribes, and those who collected their writings might have imposed their own thoughts on the message as they interpreted it? Why do you believe this collection of novellas and letters reflect an honest appraisal of the message? Why would you believe that when it is quite clear that there is much resistance to the authentic message I am passing on? Why would anyone have been more accepting of the message back then? Indeed, the message is used to support the agenda of the devil instead, making Jesus the son of the gOd of this world, and tracing his geneology back through David all the way to Adam. How is this not subversive to a message which includes, "call no man father"?

i am giving you the "keys to the Kingdom". A "key" is simply interpretive insight into what some key phrases and words mean. Once you have these keys in your hand, you are then able to interpret the rest of scripture...or anything at all...any symbol in the world. Keys have universal transfer value. And when applied, they open the doors locked within the "context" of ignorance.

Christ!

[edit on 9-2-2009 by Christ!]

Both the notion that we are 'created in God's image' and the concept of 'original sin' are utter tripe! It is just religion's way of making followers stay in the 'fold' (Sheeple????). I have communicated my feelings on the subject much more clearly here.

reply to post by karl 12


Isn't it 'codswallop'?
Either way, it doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah, neitzsche. Wiki

While most commentators regard Nietzsche's breakdown as unrelated to his philosophy, some, including Georges Bataille and René Girard, argue that his breakdown may have been caused by a psychological maladjustment brought on by his philosophy.[25][26] At least one study has suggested that brain cancer (rather than syphilis) led to his breakdown and killed him;[27] others have classified Nietzsche's "madness" as frontotemporal dementia.[28]

If humanity, left to their own devices, looks for evil or ugly, they will only find someone who needs to be medicated, incarcerated or re-habilitated.

[edit on 9-2-2009 by Clearskies]

Originally posted by miriam0566
for example, ill just pick out one...

Originally posted by Christ!
"Call no man father" [means, do not trace ones genesis back to man's maker. Place no truth in human geneology. It is a *lie* of the devil, man's maker].

what? why?

"Call no man father" is a "key".
A "key" is something that unlocks the meaning of parables.
A "key" lets the prisoners of ignorance free from their "context".
Jesus never called any man his father.
As a result, he got a reputation as to be born of a virgin.
But it also means, "call no woman mother".
It's about geneology.
The point is to deny human geneology, and embrace divine genesis instead.
Identifying with the Son of the true God, Jesus showed us the way.
But to this day, no one has followed because no one has ever since identified with the Son of the true God.
But we must, for the true God has only one Son.
The true God does not recognizes lies as sons.
Humans are basically lies, passing themselves off as sons of God.
But God does not have many sons.
Only does man's maker have many sons.
All of man's maker's sons are many.
And none are like their maker, nor like themselves.
All are unique, different and special.
This is the "son of man".
And the "son of man" is a "work" of the "devil".

Christ!

[edit on 9-2-2009 by Christ!]

reply to post by Christ!


I'm pretty sure that using your user name is considered blasphemy (unless you are the second coming) and breaks one of the ten commandments, the whole name in vain one. It makes it hard to take you seriously when you are breaking two rules of your own religion just with your user name!

I think it's a matter of perception here. It's a matter of who you see as your father.

Only that which is begotten from above will return to heaven. If you are seeing yourself as being born of the flesh from your parents, and you are seeing yourself as being your body and flesh, then you are children of the devil.

If you are seeing yourself as being soul, consciousness and so on, then you will see and know that you are born of the father/god. If this has happened to you and you know it, then you have experienced John 14:20 for yourself. It is not something you can fake, it's just something you know for yourself. This is followed by the holy ghost teaching you many things.

The flesh is of the dust of the earth and will not go to heaven. Your consciousness and soul is begotten of the father. It is the only thing that will return to heaven.

If you see the truth and see who your true father is, then you are born of a virgin. The virgin is not Mary, the virgin is god. People who do not understand the above, who have not experienced this rebirth believe Mary to be the virgin because they feel he was still born of Mary. Not the case.

They give the line of Jesus based on his flesh. He denies this and his flesh parents because he knows the truth, he knows who his father is.

John 3

2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

[edit on 10-2-2009 by badmedia]

Realize that calling yourself of the flesh is about like playing a video game such as WoW, and then likening yourself as being your character in game. But it is not you, you are the consciousness/soul/spirit behind the character.

And this is also true in life. I find it somewhat amazing that people play these video games and don't even realize they are basically playing a "game" within a "game".

Imagine if you had been born into a game like WoW, or into a "matrix". That is life. As long as you see yourself as being born of the game, a part of the game and so on then you will not see the truth.

Hope that makes sense.

Get thread. S&F.

In my opinion we are not born dirty at all. Man is not an after-effect of a sin and therefore a sinner by default. People choose to punish themselves with such notions. We are powerful beings, and we don't need to be sold a rotten bill of goods to make us feel helpless and vile. What is the purpose of such things?

There are people that believe unbaptized babies don't make it to heaven. God is such a stickler for the rules that he sends babies into limbo over a technicality. Boy heaven must be one exclusive country club.

I think I'll pass.

I know a woman who's brother was born premature and the mothers first response was to rush him to church for a baptism in case he died and ended up suffering for something he had no control over.

To me it's silly.

- Lee