Were you born "dirty" or created in the image of God?

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posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by Res Ipsa
 


Great Post. It's nice when people "get it". And I don't always agree with you, but it seems from that post you get the most important things.

The OT explains it as eye for an eye. And that is actually true. It's the same as reap what you sow, it's the same as judge not, yest you be judged as well.

"Justification" is a farce. People forget "vengeance is mine sayeth the lord".



Vengeance
Infliction of punishment in return for a wrong committed; retribution.


Meaning, you are NOT justified in killing the man who has killed someone. It is not your place to do that. It is not seen as justified, it is seen as 2 sins. Thus the folly of the hypocrite. Eye for an eye when it is seen as justified leaves the whole world blind.

So Jesus pretty much comes and is the example to show people how to actually follow them correctly.




posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
I'd say the hardest 2 are generally lust and gluttony. Lust especially.


this is my point, why would god make a being that finds it difficult to follow his commandments.

for a human, it is naturaly to sin. its easy. its saying no that hard. why would god do that?



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by badmedia
I'd say the hardest 2 are generally lust and gluttony. Lust especially.


this is my point, why would god make a being that finds it difficult to follow his commandments.

for a human, it is naturaly to sin. its easy. its saying no that hard. why would god do that?


I think it would take quite a bit of typing to discuss this. It's a very big topic when you get into lust, because it's a matter of when does it become lust?

I don't really know if I have lust or not. I would guess I do, especially when I was younger before I "sowed my oats". But I've never cheated on my wife, or had thoughts of doing so. I don't fantasize about other women and things. But I can recognize a sexy woman, and know when a woman is physically beautiful, so is that lust as well?



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 07:43 PM
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People always assume that God looks like us because we are in his image.

Ponder this, that Gos is spirit, and the part of us that is in his image is our spirit.

The body is the flesh and is born in sin, but when we are reborn in spirit we are clean.

ama



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 11:06 PM
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Lust is alot more than just sexual desires ..it is about lust for money,lust for power,lust for revenge,anger hate rage ....gluttony .....it just about covers everything ...It really is more of a spiritual sin than a physical one ..but they all lead to physical sins as well ..
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Look back in the OT there are plenty of verses that mention many different lusts.Here is just one ...there are many though ...
Psa 78:18 And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.
Psa 78:19 Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?
Here is MORE
www.blueletterbible.org...

LUST
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man

b) living being

c) living being (with life in the blood)

d) the man himself, self, person or individual

e) seat of the appetites

f) seat of emotions and passions

g) activity of mind

1) dubious

h) activity of the will

1) dubious

i) activity of the character

1) dubious

Here is what the lexicon says about it
www.blueletterbible.org...



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 11:12 PM
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We were created out of earth ..nature ..and nature is impure and corruptable.........it is violent it is wild ...it is unpredictable ..sounds alot like us doesnt it ? .....



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 12:09 AM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone
Lust is alot more than just sexual desires ..it is about lust for money,lust for power,lust for revenge,anger hate rage ....gluttony .....it just about covers everything ...It really is more of a spiritual sin than a physical one ..but they all lead to physical sins as well ..
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Look back in the OT there are plenty of verses that mention many different lusts.Here is just one ...there are many though ...
Psa 78:18 And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.
Psa 78:19 Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?


Yes, but I was more looking into the ones where you don't have a choice over it. I think we can overcome a lust for power and choose to not go for it and so on, but when you have lust in the sexual way, it is something you can not control because it is thoughts that just enter in your head.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 12:18 AM
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It is possible to deprogram yourself, so as not to have lustful thoughts, or at least reprogram them so that you have lustful thoughts about something else.

Without the darkness how do you recognize the light, everything has its place in this world.

I wonder whether the correct path is truly to tilt everything into the light.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 03:20 AM
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Originally posted by badmedia
I don't really know if I have lust or not. I would guess I do, especially when I was younger before I "sowed my oats". But I've never cheated on my wife, or had thoughts of doing so. I don't fantasize about other women and things. But I can recognize a sexy woman, and know when a woman is physically beautiful, so is that lust as well?


i dont know how to answer that question.

what im saying is that god would not create a man who had problems dealing with god´s commandments.

its like designing a car to break down every 100 miles or so. it doesnt make sense.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 10:48 AM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


Interesting, but there is a difference between lust and admiration.

All of God's creation can be admired, I can admire a rainbow or an amazing mountain or even a awesome looking animal like a white tiger with sapphire blue eyes like my avatar. I can also display that same level of admiration for a beautiful woman. Doesn't mean I want to go break God's laws.

Beautiful people are a reflection of God's creation. I admire them just like I would any of God's creation, so if I look a little longer than normal, it's not unlike looking at amazing rainbow also one of God's creations. It's the thought process that counts.

I doubt any straight man, married or not, would ignore someone like Megan Fox if she entered the room they were in.
i175.photobucket.com...




[edit on 7-2-2009 by Blue_Jay33]



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
what im saying is that god would not create a man who had problems dealing with god´s commandments.

its like designing a car to break down every 100 miles or so. it doesnt make sense.


God did not create man to fail, he allowed man to have the choice and option to fail. I see this arguement going back to the sin of Adam and Eve.
God is all knowing, yet allowed for Satan to enter the garden of Eden and tempt Eve. God is all knowing and knew that Eve would succumb and that Satan would succeed in his plans to tempt Eve but God did not intervene. He knew that we would fall but he gave man the choice. This is what makes us human, this is what makes us 'non-divine', not that we fail or that we chose the wrong direction, but that we MUST make the choice in the first place.

If we did not have the choice how would we ever prove our dis/loyalty to God? If we were made perfect and purely in his image then we would be but thralls, vessels of replication. There would be no true devotion or love for God for we are not given the choice to, we are simply made to follow.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by gYvMessanger
It is possible to deprogram yourself, so as not to have lustful thoughts, or at least reprogram them so that you have lustful thoughts about something else.

Without the darkness how do you recognize the light, everything has its place in this world.

I wonder whether the correct path is truly to tilt everything into the light.


I think the point of all this reality is to see both sides and then gain the wisdom to make the correct choices. To take from the tree of knowledge and know both good and evil. Can't understand hot if you've never experienced cold and so on. So I'm with you there.

The part about deprogramming yourself. This happens in many ways over time. But mostly because I'm old enough where it's just not the same thing as it was when I was 18. Plus you know, the whole as you get older thing you change biologically as well. I doubt you'll find a man on these forums who can't recall a time in school when a pretty girl was near by, and they would have NOT for any reason have stood up to do anything for obvious reasons. I'd be in shock today if something like that happened.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 06:51 PM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


Sounds plausible. I can control myself as far as acting on such things. But can't control the admiration.

The confusing thing is where Jesus talks about the quotes I mentioned before, where if you have done it in your heart, and what exactly that means. I can see a reason why that could be true. I like your explanation, but now I have to figure out if I like it because it's true, or if I like it because it's easier.



[edit on 7-2-2009 by badmedia]



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by Deaf Alien
Nobody wants to reply to my thread?
I think this is very important and the "beginning" of Christianity theology.
If you were born "dirty", then why is it your responsibility? Why is it your fault?
If you were created in God's image, then why are you full of sin at birth, even though you haven't done anything yet?
This is one of major flaws of Christianity.
In a nutshell, "they" want you to feel guilty of your existence.


Ok here's what's going on.
Birth is by no means a beginning.
Birth is an effect of a state of mind that goes way back to before time.
Before time, there was no such things as a body.
Still isn't except in imagination [images].
The images are the net effects of some emotions stirred up before time.
One of those emotions is guilt.
Were it not for the emotion of guilt, birth would not be a phenomenon.
Guilt is part of a "sin" complex...a set of beliefs that are not true.
There is a connection between each which is born to the beginning of time.
Each is born following a decision tree.
So each one's arrival to where s/he seems to be has been a kind of wandering.
All of this wandering is done in the mind of Christ.
All of this wanderind is summed up by the story of the "prodigal son".
Each that is born inherits beliefs and ideology and ways of thinking that trace their geneology back to the "beginning".
Physical birth is a kind of deception.
The body is a kind of deception, made for self-deception
The body, as such, is a toy in mind.
It is for wandering...striving...and for proving that guilt is the truth.
Guilt is not the truth.
But, all who are born are born because deep down, they believe in guilt.
So, it is said that children are born in sin...guilty.
This is because they would not be born were it not for an insane way of thinking, driven mad by guilt.
The body is a kind of salvation from guilt....temporarily.
The body buffers the acute feelings of guilt...for a while.
So its a kind of hide out...hiding from emotions that drive fear.
Events and circumstances then arise to prove that guilt is justified.
This is all the world is really doing.
At this stage of the blame game, its not unusual to have been born a thousand times since the beginning of time.
Time is not linear, it is all at once.
It is only the sense of guilt that makes a linear experience of time.
Without guilt, each one would be removed from the linear exprience of time, and from time altogether.
There is a correlation between time and mass.
But there is also a correlation between mass and guilt.
As a rule of thumb, the more you believe the world is real, the more you feel guilty.
Jesus came to turn this around.
He told the truth.
Truth is, the conditions that seem to justify guilt are not true.
So, guilt cannot be true either.
The condition that sets up the feeling of guilt is the concept of separation from oneness
Separation is the concept of a separate will each to his own, each to his own truth.
Separation is the beginning of a fantasyland, in which each sees what s/he wants.
This, if true, effectively destroys truth and reality.
Judged to be true by a powerful mind, separation seems to become the "truth", instead of the oneness of truth.
This invoked and conjures up feelings that were not ever experienced in reality.
The universe is a reaction to these feelings.
The universe functions as the proverbial fig leaf.
The universe is a place to hide.
Bodies are part of the hiding mechanism.
A body is the last place God would look for anything
God can be anywhere...except a body.
So a body functions to keep God out.
It functions to limit the unlimited.
It functions to limit love.
This effectively adulterates love and makes it meaningless.
So, the more "real" is one experience of a body, the more acute the feelings of guilt.
If true, the body represents identity theft.
A body is something to "be" which God did not give...does not will.
So every minute spent in a body is a minute spent trying to justify one's existence.
This justification is dealt with in different ways.
Christianity started out with the explanation I've given you
But then it took a detour and decided to uphold guilt as the truth instead of dispelling it.
So, they say children are born in sin, rather than an untrue set of beliefs tracing back to the beginning of time.
The truth has been lost and a distortion has taken its place.
None are guilty of anything.
But this is not necessarily what anyone wants to hear.
Because, this would end each one's existence as a body/person.
So, there is a krazy kind of kristianity which actually functions to perpetuate guilt...so that it may continue to experience the percieved benefits of masquerading as a person with a body.
The body affords the only opportunity in all of eternity to be *special*.
This is primarily why guilt is valued.
Guilt is the only way anyone can be special.
To value the reality of the universe or to value guilt as real...this has the same net effect.



Christ!



posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 04:31 AM
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Originally posted by ElKapitan
God did not create man to fail, he allowed man to have the choice and option to fail. I see this arguement going back to the sin of Adam and Eve.
God is all knowing, yet allowed for Satan to enter the garden of Eden and tempt Eve. God is all knowing and knew that Eve would succumb and that Satan would succeed in his plans to tempt Eve but God did not intervene. He knew that we would fall but he gave man the choice. This is what makes us human, this is what makes us 'non-divine', not that we fail or that we chose the wrong direction, but that we MUST make the choice in the first place.

If we did not have the choice how would we ever prove our dis/loyalty to God? If we were made perfect and purely in his image then we would be but thralls, vessels of replication. There would be no true devotion or love for God for we are not given the choice to, we are simply made to follow.


im not arguing freewill.

deaf is saying in so many words that adamic sin cant exist because we are made in the ¨image of god¨

but thats not true. adam and eve, had the option to sin, but they didnt have any inclination to. thats what made their sin so serious. it was a direct rebellion against god.

for us its different. we inherited sin from them, as such we have an inclination. in this respect, humankind right from the time they are born are condemned. a guarantee 100% that it wont be long before they do sin, because of that inclination.

most people dont like this doctrine because it suggests they are broken. but honestly, does anyone of us have a perfect life void of the mistakes that make it so hard?

most dont like it because they say its unfair. god would agree, which is why he provided jesus for the ransom. if it was just and our death was exactly and perfectly what we deserved, then god wouldnt have done that.



posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 05:44 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
but they didnt have any inclination to


If we are to believe that God as omnipotent and omniscient created Adam (and Eve from Adam) he must have created Adam with the inclination, or at least the option for that inclination to exist (as clumsy as that English is), to sin.
Everything that exists within Adam, Eve and humanity all stems from God, not that we are necesserily created in his image and thus sin because he is sinful, but that he allowed us to do so.
Nothing is unintended



posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by ElKapitan

Originally posted by miriam0566
but they didnt have any inclination to


If we are to believe that God as omnipotent and omniscient created Adam (and Eve from Adam) he must have created Adam with the inclination, or at least the option for that inclination to exist (as clumsy as that English is), to sin.
Everything that exists within Adam, Eve and humanity all stems from God, not that we are necesserily created in his image and thus sin because he is sinful, but that he allowed us to do so.
Nothing is unintended


look, freewill was involved. if god created freewill, logically that creation has the possibility of using that freewill against god´s purposes. it doesnt mean however that god intended it that way.

adam and eve could have simply not sinned. but unfortunately they did.

was god already prepared for that contingency? of course he was.

when god created adam and eve, he did not intend for them to sin. to say that he did i just plain illogical and displays a lack of basic insight into this situation.

adam and eve were intended to live forever in a paradise earth.

1 john 3:[7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

the ¨works¨ of the devil was to turn mankind away from god. this is the product of a selfish freewilled creature, not ¨god´s original plan¨. jesus was sent to earth to undo these works, not because they are all part of god´s plan.

so logically, adam and eve would not have been created with any inclination to sin. to them sin wouldnt have been something impossible to resist.



posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


Hi miriam,
The works of the devil are "destroyed" by forgiveness based in truth.
Till it is understood what sin is, one will not understand forgiveness.
Its important to understand that the "devil" was sinning before the foundation of the earth. It's also important to understand what is the "devil" in order to "destroy" its "works". The "devil" is the "prince of this world". Its works are "the world". "Man" is included in its works. So, man is the effect of sin. Sin is not an effect of man. Before ever the appearance of "the world" or of man within it, there was a commitment to sin, in league with "the devil". The devil can be thought of as a mental power that lives on belief in lies. The devil equates to consciousness. Its domain is perception, energy, time mass and gravity. Its domain is also separation, differences, special status, fear and guilt and limitations. The devil is not a living being, in the sense that the Son of God is Life itself. The devil is like a toy or tool the Son of God uses to have f.u.n. [acronym: unconscious fantasy]. The devil is like a potion that turns Dr. Jekyl into Mr. Hyde. As the Son of God drinks this potion, he is transformed in to everything within the devils domain. In this way, the Son of God "sins" against himself, transforming himself into "man, beast, and every creeping thing". That is why whatsoever we do to the least of these, we do to the Son of God. The devils domain now appears to have a strong foundation...as strong as GoD's. And hell seems to be forever. But hell is the manifestation of a "house divided against itself"...so, hell cannot stand. Hell will not prevail against the truth of oneness of GoD's domain. The truth will overcome the domain of the devil, and destroy it. And with it will go man, beast, every creeping thing, the sun, the moon, the planents, the stars, the galaxies and all of the works of the devil. Birth is the effect of sin. Birth is a concept within the devils domain. In GoDs domain, there is no such thing as limitation, weakness, ignorance or need. A baby is all of these. This is not the work of God. Believe me.


Christ!



posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by Deaf Alien
Let's say that you inherited a disease from your parents. Is it your fault that you have the disease? Do you deserve the punishment?
...

That means that if your child has a genetic disease, you are going to ignore it, right? I mean, after all, it isn't THEIR fault, so therefore (and according to your own logic) you can just ignore it, and not treat it.

So, we can ignore ALL genetic diseases, because they don't need treatment, right?

Do people even LEARN logical thinking anymore?



posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by sir_chancealot
Do people even LEARN logical thinking anymore?


Nope, they don't. You pretty much are on your own for that in today's society. School has been turned into a place of memorization rather than a place of learning. The smart kid is not the one who can understand things, but the one who can memorize what the teacher and book says.

It's amazing how many people don't know the difference between "knowing" 1+1=2, and "understanding" 1+1=2.

As Einstein once said. Any fool can know, the point is to understand.





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