Bill to abolish IRS introduced

I like the idea but its being flung back and forth for decades, and the fact none of the elected conservate presidents have not implemented this only tells me theres never a longterm will power. This idea had a chance to be implemented during Reagan, Bush snr, this Bush, Nixon, and on all fronts its been put down. In addition inorder for this bill to be implemented a number of steps will have to be taken:

1)The state of the economy now, the debt we're in, we cannot implement something like this until we stablize the economy to the way it was during the 90s etc. Considering this crap to the economy happened under a republican administration, with their $200 million a day war, blindly supported by most folks here on ATS a afew democrats at the time, something like this will not possible be put forward until this mess fixed.

2)There will need to be a time period to which the IRS will have to be abolished, 3 years atleast. This and the fact about 190,000 employees will have to be re-employed somewhere else. With the economy in this state we will have to wait a decade or so to get it to 90s economic levels to implement this system. It would take atleast a decade for this system to be implemented.

3)All those folks who are pushing for this bill, the vast majority of them supported the wild spending of the last government, so I find it hypocritical and a slight but disturbed that these folks are happily parading this bill around, yet they made it less possible with years of support for the mishandling of the economy and $200 million a day wars.

Iv read up on these idea afew times, I am skeptical to the fact that such neccessities as bread, milk, the no income tax will pay off for such products folks are in need of. But luxuries will be a different story, it will take a much longer time to get that plasma you've always wanted or that viechle because your too busy trying to balance the cost of the necessities. Even under a good economic state for this system to grow the retail industry will loose out somewhat (not sure howmuch) by the time period in which such luxuries will be spent. Not to mention some cut backs on military (which I support) and public projects such as roads will have to be taken.

Im reading more up on the idea, and im trying to keep an open mind to it, but as expressed above, there are obvious concerns about the idea thats not getting me fully into it.

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reply to post by Spectre0o0


Tell me why I should have to pay for that man's lively hood? ... It takes away from my way of life, what I have built. So tell me one reasonable excuse as to why he should pay nothing, be hand fed, and have the audacity to EXPECT to be hand fed?

reply to post by Total Reality

the income tax was put in place in world war 2 to help with the war and it was supposed to end after the war!!

Most of the people on this thread have a terrible mental ability to extrapolate. In no way does a flat tax make the rich richer and the poor pay more. Infact it would be exactly the opposite. Ill even explain this, it upsets me to even read those replies. It is clear that the people posting have absolutely no idea what they are saying and are posting just to be posting.

Example:

I own a business or work as a contractor, which in both cases I own my business and must pay SE tax etc... I raise about 6k and setup an off shore trust in Panama, then an IBC for the trust. Bank accounts for both and then an LLC inside the USA in hawk to the IBC. For my taxes I give my LLC tax ID to whom ever employs me. From now on I pay zero taxes in the USA. And in Panama, your money is not taxed.

Bill Gates has one, Rockefellar has one, heck a whole lot of extremely wealthy people in the USA have these accounts. This is only one way they get you to pay for the government services they use.

Walmart and state taxes, google that one. You yourself are paying the state tax required for Walmart. You pay for the extra police and fire departments required for a Walmart to exist in your town. Their tax evasion scams are so complex I wont even get into describing them. It would make your head spin.

The fact is rich people dont spend 100 dollars a year on clothes, and they dam sure dont goto the store and buy bologana for dinner. The poor person does. Rich people arent going to stop buying clothing and live like they are from the trailer park. They refuse to. And they are going to buy the food they think they deserve such as lobster, even with a higher sales tax.

They also are not going to drive a clunker around town just because the sales tax went up. But the poor person, yeah hes going to pay less taxes because all he can afford is the 2k to 10k car. The rich guys going to spend 30 to 80k. The rich person doesnt have to live in a trailer and nor would he. Therefore he buys a 250k to 1 million dollar house. Where as the person in the trailer park buys a used 10k to 15k trailer if hes lucky.

In no way shape or form will the rich man pay less overall tax, thats just retarded to think that way. The rich man also has to buy a lot of items for his business. Computers, office supplies. Products to make the products his business produces. It goes on and on, the poor man works for an employer, the rich man IE Walmart, IS the employer.

The flat tax is not perfect, but it fixes countless loopholes and would fix the current tax structure. From that point on we would need smaller modifications. Also who here can say they dont know atleast one person who cheats on their tax returns? I mean really.

Ron Paul knows this wont pass if he jumps on it, hes probably waiting to be one of the last guys to do it. Reverse psychology. No this isnt about "We have to get rid of the IRS and the FED at the same time or it wont work". One thing at a time. Both need to go, we cant destroy society over night and rebuild it in the morning. One step at a time.




[edit on 6-2-2009 by Memysabu]

Originally posted by Harry55
If they want to fix this economy this would be the hat trick. You only pay tax on what you decide to purchase. No one would ever again be on the hook with the I.R.S. and their ridiculous penalty and interest rates. Paying your taxes as you purchase for everyone would bring in more money anyway because everyone would pay.

Dream on. The poor would pay the tax as their poverty ensures they have to stay in the US. The rich will move their money abroad and buy goods and services elsewhere and thus contribute nothing to the economy.

DUH!

Originally posted by Memysabu
Most of the people on this thread have a terrible mental ability to extrapolate. In no way does a flat tax make the rich richer and the poor pay more. Infact it would be exactly the opposite. Ill even explain this, it upsets me to even read those replies. It is clear that the people posting have absolutely no idea what they are saying and are posting just to be posting.

Example:

[edit on 6-2-2009 by Memysabu]

Flawed example since it is based on the behaviours of the rich with the current tax system. As soon as the rich can see a method whereby they can avoid tax altogether....they will! Some of them currently do avoid paying less tax than everyone else by utilising tax havens. Poor people can't use tax havens.

Originally posted by malcr
lawed example since it is based on the behaviours of the rich with the current tax system. As soon as the rich can see a method whereby they can avoid tax altogether....they will! Some of them currently do avoid paying less tax than everyone else by utilising tax havens. Poor people can't use tax havens.

And there is the rub: Tax havens are created by Congress as they try to manipulate the behavior of society. Take away these tools of manipulation, you take power away from congress.

wait, i thought there was no law that said we must pay taxes in the usa... how true is this?

Check out www.endthefed.com

Originally posted by n0tsympl
its grand idea but it's best left that way it would create more problems than it would solve ie communism... what about the billions sitting in bank accounts what about the billions sitting in investments this tax would only effect the private citizens who spend thier hard earned money i think this bill would greater divide the rich from poor

It wouldn't affect those billions at all....unless the owners wanted to spend them and derive some benefit from them. Then they would pay the tax. The Fair Tax is probably the most radical restructuring of taxes ever proposed. It would indeed be a "hat trick" to fixing the economy, stopping pork, and creating transparency. I don't see the politicians ever giving up that kind of power unless they are absolutely forced to by public opinion and grassroots activism.

If by some miracle, that happens as a result of our latest financial crisis, then we will have gotten it cheap, and it will have been worth it. I'm not holding my breath for it. I am writing my congresspeople often though and agitating for it. You never know!

reply to post by BlackOps719

It is absolutely brilliant. We as a people need to see to it that our elected officials know this is what we want in no uncertain terms.

Good luck pals, this is good timing!

Do you think this might have been done - maybe not now???

Where were these guys in 00 01 02 03 04 05 06?

I like my bridges and schools standing thank you.

And I am not going to pay for a road my money helped build!

It will not happen of course but if it did:

We may well find a DEFLATIONARY SPIRAL as the pull back in unbounded illogical consumerism would pull back and drop demand. Even with the dollar crashing and relative costs upward bound; the lack of demand would still win-out (my opinion) in such an instance and trigger a stronger deflationary spiral.

One interesting thing that this article brings to mind is the SHEEP nature of the people in that those who have NOT BEEN EFFECTED by the economic pullback watch the news and see the markets and the stories and follow the herd into the NON-SPENDING CONSERVATIVE MODE just as when the Housing Boom was in its prime and people were refinancing again and again and buying what they could not afford the same SHEEPLE in their SHEEPDOM went into PRO-CONSUMER OVERSPENDING MODE.

IRONY: If the press exclusively publish articles about a RECOVERY and positive economic factors for 1 WEEK, CONSUMER SPENDING WOULD EXPLODE. Those who had been short-term conservative because of such news would re-engage their irresponsibility and/or illogical spending mode.

IN ANY CASE:

I am tickled by the 40 Reps who seem to be having some fun in showing their manner of objection to the current stimulus package. The outcome of a purchase driven sales-tax system would be an interesting one but massive upheaval motions in terms of the way the existing system works might drive an already afraid and unstable system to the brink.

I think the idea of capping the corporate sales tax might keep a few more companies within the U.S. instead of scheming so hard and introducing such arbitrary complexity in order to reduce their liability.

Food for thought.

One interesting thing is that Members of Congress are putting their name to a number of concepts since the Inauguration that one would rarely expect anyone to have risked their re-election and image on earlier.

I think income tax should be removed for individuals but it should remain in place for business.

reply to post by Total Reality


I don't think Plato actually said that about the dead being the only ones to see the end of war. I think it was Douglas MacArthur who said it and falsely attributted it to Plato -- and of course Doug had a great vested interest in war as an industry.

Originally posted by ravenshadow13

All advanced societies have high taxes, because people want high public services. ...

In Freedon To Facism, it's stated that not one cent of your income tax goes to public services, but to the Fed.

Either Aaron Russo is wrong or that statement above sucks dogs balls.

Nice find even if may never go anywhere...
I think It would be a good thing but thats just me.

reply to post by malcr



Thats because the example was meant to be based around the current structure. I dont think you read and understood my post. I was stating how they currently get around paying taxes. I should have mentioned that you dont pay other taxes as well. Not just SE tax. Of course they have to pay sales tax and property tax but most taxes on gains are negated. You dont pay tax on money thats owned by someone who isnt born yet. But you are the manager of the trust are entitled to pull as much money out to take care of yourself as you want.

Sales tax is something even the rich have to pay, so if a flat tax is put on that games over. They arent going to be able to get around paying their taxes then. The government would have much more money to spend in the case of a flat tax because theres no cheating it.