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Fathers rights...or the lack of

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posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 08:39 PM

Originally posted by mushninja
reply to post by Res Ipsa

If you have the slightest inkling about getting into family law you should. There needs to be more advocates for just child support enforcement and fathers rights. Your pain and personal experince would probably make you quite profecient once you got past the cutthroat aspects and learned your way around the flaws in the system.

Inkling??!!! Did you read my post?! Maybe I understated it, my fault.
Knowing what you know, can you surmise my interest in family law?
I got my arse kicked with reality....I had a professor hate my guts because of how "adament" my class participation was concerning the matter....Do you think a professor enjoys being told that they are wrong?
...I don't know if I can see Father's get destroyed day after day. I'm too close to the issue......but I told you that I am, at least at this moment, reconsidering....I thought about the idea of being a marriage counselor and family law attorney. I thought maybe I could be an attorney that a couple would come to and trust that I would make sure that neither party got hosed....but the real world doesn't work like that. I saw myself as being able to slap both wife and husband in the head when they were doing something that harmed the child....but the unhappy party would sue me for malpractice.

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 08:50 PM
reply to post by Res Ipsa

You can't be everyone's friend and you can't fix everyone, every couple, every divorce, every custody dispute.

It is obvious you are passionate about this....for extremely good reason. And, maybe if more Dads had the chance to be in the position you are in now and bring that into their career, the ball could start rolling for some changes that are much needed in family law. But, that's your call.....not the call of some anonymous screen names on a forum.

It is sad but true that a lot of really good men get the short end of the stick from some really bad laws, judges, lawyers, and women. It isn't fair, and it needs to change. Not just for the men, but for the children involved as well.

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 08:54 PM
This thread is great. I am glad people are finally talking about this. I have a daughter who will be 12 in April and I am in a similar position. Thankfully up in Canada the law is a bit more lenient and a degree.

Let me tell you about a little place called Fort McMurray. Lots of money to be made up there. Big oil town. Here is what some women have described to me as their "5 year plan".

1. Find an oilfield guy making decent money. Show him all kinds of attention. With the guy - girl ratio being something like 4 guys for every girl, they are desperate for the attention.

2. Shack up with him, make sure the girl controls the birth control.

3. Marry him.

4 Have at least 2 kids with him.

5. Make sure to buy a house and a truck and an SUV, and whatever toys they might need later.

6. Cheat on him.

They laid this out all matter of factly. They told me the idea was either the cheating causes him to leave or get a divorce, or he just puts up with it. Win-win for the woman. One of my friends owned his own company, was making an assload of cash. Owned his own equipment, had a 3500 sqft house, all the toys like boats and quads. She cheated, he left, she got the house, all the toys, and $10,000 a month combined alimony and child support.

As for me...I am with another woman, we have 2 kids, and I can never leave her, and she knows that (lucky wants to be with me far). She knows I could never afford to pay child support for the daughter I had before and the 2 kids I have now.

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 08:55 PM

I'd stay out of family law. I could not imagine reliving the pain day after day. It's a rigged game in an illegal, unConstitutional court where attorneys are merely pawns. Sure, most are scumbags working the system, but there are a few that aren't and those that are adamant merely get disbarred.

I'm a Constitutional rights activist for the last 10 years since my kids were stolen from me. Did alot of research and fact finding on the destruction of families by this fascist government. I researched until I found who and why this was done to my family.

If you want to know google "Ed Ward, MD". What you find out may turn your stomach, it did mine.

My Best to You and Yours,


posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 09:00 PM
reply to post by Rook1545

And, it's women like that who give the rest of us a bad name.

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 09:01 PM

Originally posted by EdWardMD
reply to post by mushninja


Yes, it's what we all feel. It's only a half step short of your childs death. It is devasting. The most devasting thing to happen to me. Nothing even close in comparison. Hang in there. As you can see there are many in your shoes and remember there are others that are worse off. Hopefully, that is of some help to you. Take the advice on all calls, dealings, conversations, if you can't tape record in your state, stop and write it down, use a message machine for any calls from your ex, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT.


Now that is a great way explain it.....almost like the death of the child.
You can see the pain and confusion in the childs eyes because they want to love you but have been told that you are bad and it confuses see that and the anger or rage or pain just overcomes you as all of these emotions flash infront of you...your child in seeing their knowing that they are battling with the image of you as dad and the image of you as bad man.....knowing that your wife planted that image....your helplessness....your inability to even think of anything to say...WOW....I suggest law school because you can bury these things until you run across a friggin thread like this.

Sooooo....if anyone reads this that hasn't gone through this.....I suggest you watch "Kramer vs. Kramer" and that will be the closest as you can get....and that even is in a situation where the mother isn't....oh the words I can't use....when the mother isn't....."evil".....maybe that is appropriate.

Of course no one reading this thread is going to watch it....but you should.

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 09:30 PM
love you Ed but....
The new attorneys today might sell out....but they aren't apart of any great conspiracy.
They understand that the law can often be determined by the best argument and the political leanings of a judge.
Conservative judges have no interest in breaking up the family.
The pedulum often swings too far from either left to right or versa vice.

Some...most attorneys have seen the system in action and give up fighting or being too vested in a particular case because it would give them an ulcer and their virtue or ideals die or are so numbed that a case is just another case.....but no conspiracy.

As far as the was a compromise. No founding father expected the Constitution to be held out as some unchangeable or permanant Gospel. It wasn't even suppose to be anything more than a tweeking of the Articles of the Confederation...Rhode Island didn't even send a delegation to it. Everyone wanted to add something. North Carolina or was it South?...they didn't even ratify it the first time.
Counting blacks as 3/5ths and the only issue there was over the representation that those slave states would get. No Madison, no Bill of Rights even....and of course there were no Bill of Rights in the Constitution thus they being the first 10 amendments. "All men are created equal" didn't mean anything until the 13th. The Constitution can't be viewed as the Bible. But of course we can't just say the hell with it either.

The only reason the Constitution has survived this long is because of those Bill of Rights and the Natural Law behind them. But taking the view point of a strict constructionalist like Scalia isn't doing us any favors.

I be loving and defending the Constitution but I believe it is a living breathing document like Thurgood Marshall believed and not some limited to the four corners as written by dudes 220yrs ago.

...the pendulum (can't spell worth #e) will swing again and equality for Father's will improve. If I don't become a prosecutor then I will waste my breaths fighting for the family. I will fight for the woman that got screwed like the one poster said and I will fight for people like me, you, and Mush. is worth the fight and after spending my entire night on this thread in thought and in posting, I am glad to be reminded why I went to law school in the first place.

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 09:50 PM
Mush, the best thing I can tell you is don't give up man. He is your son and you do have every right to see him. Don't stop trying. It may not happen any time soon but eventually, your son will be old enough to come see you on his own.

If you don't try, he may not bother to try himself.

I know alot about this subject as I am a single father raising a 9 yo daughter by myself. I didn't have to fight for my girl though, her mother gave her up, no questions asked. At the time, we had shared custody. She would be with me for 4 nights a week, her mom 3. Although she was with me more, my ex had primary caregiver status, so I had to pay CS. 400 bucks a month, which was about 40% of my take home pay at the time. It was for child care so my ex could keep her job, as she could never afford child care on her own.

I phoned one afternoon to talk to my daughter before I had to go to work and my ex says...

"I found I new job, I am sending **** to my moms to live because I will be working nights."

My reply was "Pack her things, I will be there in an hour to get her."

All she said was OK.

I have had custody of my girl for almost four years now. In that time, I have received almost no CS. I thought about taking her to court about it as she makes decent money and can afford to help pay for the raising of our child.

On advice from a lawyer friend, I didn't.


Because he told me that because I was looking for CS from her, there is better than 50% chance the courts would take my daughter away from me.


Because as a man, I am seen as more than capable of supporting our child on my own, without the need of help from her. If I looked for CS from her, they could, could mind you, see it as my inability to care for her properly.

As crazy as that sounds, it has happened several times in my province alone.

The family courts are heavily slanted in favour of women, regardless of the circumstances of the custody case.

I have a bunch more to say about this but I have to go hunt down some of the bookmarks I had on my old computer.

Here is one though that helps put things in a proper light, at least in Canada.

Percentage of non-custodial mothers who pay child support in Canada: 1%

Percentage of custodial mothers awarded child support orders: 94%

Percentage of custodial fathers awarded child support orders: 30%

Rate for men failing in their appeals with the Appeal Court of Ontario: 92%

Ratio of women vs. men who gain sole custody: 7 to 1

The biggest group of so-called deadbeats is women, not men: there are more than twice as many
women non-custodial parents evading child support than men.

93% of female non-custodial parents don't pay any child support

Less than 9% of parents believe Canadian Courts deal effectively with ‘access’.

70% of marriage break-up is instigated by women.

The only group which benefits from an improved standard of living after divorce is high-income

Biased courts force men to pay up to 8.5 times the average of women at the same income levels.

Judges award high income women more child support than low income women, for the same father

Custody and access problems cost parents and society more than is paid in child support.

The actual percentage of fathers not paying child support and thus allowing men as a group to
inherit the term “dead-beat Dad” is between 7 and 13%.

Child Support Guidelines" are used by biased courts to sharply increase the percentage of fathers
shut out of children's lives.

Canada's Supreme Court says women win in family court because of their sex, not by "merit".

4 out of 5 repeat young offenders are single parent children.

82% of crime is from repeat young offenders

An estimated 3-5 divorced and separated fathers commit suicide every day

There are no shelters for men in Canada

Sources: Glenn Cheriton-Child Support, Divorce, Custody, Access & Government Policies (1998) ISBN 0-88970-101-6,
Commoners' Publishing, Ottawa 1998. Statscan, FACT-Fathers are Capable Too, various other Fathers Rights organizations and contributing individuals

The fellow who released this press release,Jeremy Swanson, has become a major Father's Rights Actvist here in Canada due to what happened to him.

I have a bunch more court case documents, newspaper stories, research papers etc... I just have to dig them all up.

Remember man, YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!! Try and find Fathers Rights groups in your area. Search online for them or stop at your local church or community centre. They should have information about them. Contact the person in the link. Although he is based in Canada, he will be able to put you in touch with groups near you.

The only other thing I can say right now is never disparage your ex in front of your kid when you see him. Even if your ex wife is doing this, be the bigger person.

posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 12:02 AM
reply to post by Res Ipsa


You need to read up on your government. As for the constitution, while I'm sure you had some great teachers whatever I'm quite sure there are others that are much better at constitutional law, I go to the framers of the constitution for my interpretations of the constitution and they very clearly state that there is only one legal constitutional interpretation until it is legally changed: The historical background interpretion and it is this constitution our lying scumbags take their oaths of office to support.

"Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government." --- James Madison. -

"On every question of construction [of the Constitution] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or intended against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." --- Thomas Jefferson

You see they made sure to leave quotes to make the interpretation of the Constitution very easy to interpret without some new improved unratified BS interpretation.

Here's a few more:

"All authority belongs to the people... In questions of power let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief with chains of the Constitution." Thomas Jefferson

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."

LSLI: "Spaht", "Downs" on The People's Rights

America's Only Real Choice: Constitution or Tyranny?

City of New Orleans, LA & 36 Other State's Elections Fixed -

"Bad Cops Took My Grandpa," Said 5 Year Old, Logan Klump

The U.S. Constitution: Supposedly, Partially Revived on June 25, 2003

Only Two Gang Members Caught in The Great American "Hold Up"

Parents Suing For Constitutional Rights As Parents A Parent Is A Terrible Thing To Waste

HBO's "Hacking Democracy"

Frontline's "The Dark Side" The Iraq War Scam

New Hampshire Black Box - UnConstitutional Voting -

Candidate's Unattainable 'Carrots' Lead US Around a Neverending Circular Path of Servitude -

Pearl Harbor Attack Known by FDR (FOIA UNClassified Documents)

Uranium: Deja DU - The Agent Orange of Eternity

What is the Problem with Equality - Presumptive Equal Shared Parenting

Aaron Russo's - America: Freedom to Fascism

posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 12:27 AM
reply to post by GAOTU789

Nice links. Reminds me of me several years ago. In the US, our stats are only slightly better on custody - about 80% female custody, 80% divorces initiated by female, otherwise about the same.


posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 08:26 AM

Man mushninja I feel your pain. I really do. I am in the exact same boat you are. Fathers have NO rights. NONE.

I can't even talk with my son as it is. I pay child support every week. I also have to have life insurance on myself, payable to my ex wife in case of my death. (Seems to me like perfect motive for her to off me.) and still I have to find a way to get him health insurance. (how im supposed to afford that is beyond me)

Because of the child support that I have to pay, and the amount of money that I make, I can't afford a lawyer. Hell I can't afford much of anything.

CSE or Friend of the Court (or whatever it's called in your state) has the duty to punish every father, but no reason or accountability to enforce the rights that us fathers do have. It's a double standard that really sickens me.

They have suspended my licence, They did so about 6 months after the divorce was finalized. Even though she broke up the marriage, left me for another guy, took my son from me and wouldn't let me see him at the advice of her attorney during the divorce, (which in Florida is illegal by the way, Florida Statute 787.03) She got full custody, I received a grand total of 8 hours of visitation per week, which she soon afterwards revoked on her own.

My life is completely devastated, the pain and suffering I have had to endure is overwhelming. Hell I feel like I have PTS disorder cause of this joke of a court proceeding. And some of you girls on this forum wonder why I bad mouth women here so much.

If I had enough money to hire an attorney I would be able to argue to force her to let me see my son, but the court won't do a damn thing to her.

In my case I did not want a divorce, at the time I loved my wife, I certainly love my son. And even though I felt that I creamed her lawyer in the courtroom, hell I proved that she lied on her original petition and falsified her income affidavit, the judge signed off on what her attorney had written down. It was completely ex parte and total BS. I wasn't even allowed to object to how badly her attorney was screwing me. Hell I couldn't have done worse if I didn't show up for the trial at all.

I think custody laws in this country need a drastic overhaul. Equality my [snip]. I say that if a guy is to be punished for his infractions on child support, women need to be held accountable for what infractions they make. Why not take her licence? Hell throw her in jail for a month for every instance they refuse to let us talk to our kids, or refuse to let us see our kids. They certainly are willing to prosecute dads for not paying child support, why not make women accountable too?

Fact of the matter, why not make women accountable for the money they receive from us? I want to know that my money is going for the welfare of my son, I want an accurate accounting of what she is spending on him and what it's going to. What if she is spending the money that gets taken out of my check every week to buy drugs? (In my ex wife's case it more likely be spent on ex lax and ipecac that anorexic/bulimic

Oh I feel your pain mushninja, it's total crap, total bs and it shouldn't be allowed to happen. The "no fault" divorce is the worst thing to come down the legal pipeline ever. What kind of
is that anyway? "no fault" of course it's someone's fault, otherwise there wouldn't be a divorce filed to begin with.

posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 08:49 AM
reply to post by whatukno

I like the idea of women having to be accountable for every dollar they recieve. If the state is going to be involved and the government wants a cashless society they should at least use one aspect of it to our advantage....give them debit cards that cannot be used to redeam cash with, and each month the father should get an itemized statement showing exactly what/where the money went the previous month.

posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 10:19 AM
reply to post by mushninja

You have a penis, so you are instantly guilty, and pay more. The lesbian harpies that deal with child support are there to make your life hell because you have a penis.

Men are slaves to the matriarchy.

posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 10:35 AM
mushninja I understand your frustration.
But the fact is its the system in general that fails people, and most importantly fails children.
Of course its more common for the mother to have children but these days its all people really there is alot of single fathers.
And even other family members looking after children, step parents etc, who go through all this.
On one side you have people being treated like criminals, on the other side you have people who can barely afford clothes for the kids.
You have people who earn 200k a year and pay nothing because they do it all offshore through company's.
And then you have the person who cares for the children, earning 200k and pulling some $200 a week that they don't need from someone , and that person can barely afford to live.
I believe it to be the system itself.
They make it easy for people to destroy the family, then the methods afterward they make difficult.

posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 10:41 AM
I thought the site URL used to be but that just turned up a million other hits .. here's the correct one

posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:08 AM

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
My ex left me and stopped me seeing my daughter and then tried to take my house away! Fortunately she didn't get anywhere so she stopped me seeing my little girl. I was warned if I caused trouble I would be taken to court. That was nine years ago. I have long since given up any hope of seeing her and if I'm truly honest, I've lost all interest for the last couple of years.
If you want to get anywhere in this life the number one rule is, don't get married and for gods sake don't have kids! The consequences if your relationship goes wrong are potentially fatal. . . Just look at the number of fathers who have had mental breakdowns and committed suicide.

You do much more harm than good for this guy's thread. Anyone that would say, much less do this: "I have long since given up any hope of seeing her and if I'm truly honest, I've lost all interest for the last couple of years." is a sack of *snip* in my opinion. Fathers like you are the reason this guy's in the predicament he is. Don't use his thread to bitch about your sad life. Sounds like you are the one that made it that way!

posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:14 AM
This is very discomforting to me to hear that dude...

Ill open up:

My ex gf and I had a baby..
for 2 years we lived in same city and visited a few times a week.

Then she moved to Calgary. Alberta with our daughter.. Which is 4000kms from home.

I didnt complain, I just saved and after 5 months I moved out here too..
Knowing no one except my daughter...

Which is fine.

But last night I told her BF to bug off, because I wanted to watch TV with my daughter cause she was crying for her mommy really loud and that calmed her down. He said no and I said bug off Im the father.

so now Im not allowed at their house anymore..
for something as saying I am the father. I am gonna make rules here.

So now I can only see her once a week, on the weekend.

This is beyond not fair. but I cannot say a damn thing, because she just keeps threatening me to not see my daughter.

I never do anything wrong with my daughter. I am there on time and do everything I can as a father.. She gets mad because I dont discipline her enough but I dont see her very often so of course i am more lenient with her.

This is not fair and I dunno what to do.

on top of it. I am only suppose to pay 283$ a month child support but pay 150$ a week, because that's what her daycare costs.

I dunno what to do..
I dont wanna involve lawyers and court. cause we settled sipport payments and days I can visit without anyone else. Its our choice as mature adults..

but im getting robbed here of my daughters love, it seems.

When we are together, things are perfect.

[edit on 5-2-2009 by xbranscombex]

posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:21 AM
After 5 years my wife wanted to be single again - so she took my son and moved in with her parents. Nobody cheated, she wanted something new. I was granted "standard visitation" and she was granted "standard child support".
Standard visitation means I get to see my son every other weekend and one evening during the off week.
Standard child support has ended up being $800 a month taken directly out of my check.
I have to barter with her for more time with my son. He and I are very close and he cries whenever I have to take him back to his Mom's house. An extra weekend ususally costs a plane ticket for her to go visit her freind in Florida.

Its such a fair system.

posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:27 AM
reply to post by mushninja

I'm amazed that so many men still do not understand what they get themselves into when they get married under man's laws, or when they move in with a woman and live together.

Men are second class citizens in the marriage/custody/family courts.

Sadly, the infatuation of a woman and man's inate desire to please the love of his life, so often becomes his undoing.

I've tried to tell men this for years, but they won't listen. You enter into a marriage deluded by fantasies. You exit marriage experiencing the cold hard realities of an unfair and unjust system that treats you like a criminal.

Don't pay your support and the gov. can take away your drivers licence or any other permits and licences you have, leaving you a worthless heap of a man.

posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:35 AM
I can completely sympathize, I am in a similar though not same situation.

My girlfriend got pregnant around two years ago. I ditched my life and family to go with her and start a family there(that is a long story on its own) and she had told me prior about being with another man, 2.5 weeks before we had gotten together. We go for the ultrasound, and it was conceived EXACTLY on his date; So I left, assured that it wasn't mine, with it that off, and that exact on his.

Anyways, about a year later, she has me called for a DNA test; It is, in fact, my child. I go to see him, and she denied me access; then would guilt me for not being a part of his life. Several times she loses him, 4 now,(she has only had him a total of like 2 or 3 months; he is a year and 7 months old) and never tells me, telling Children's Aid that I cannot be found, don't care anyways etc. 6 months ago, they go about getting a hold of me to see if I want him; I think great, here is my shot at showing him a good life(her partying/drug using, welfare, no permanent residence, looking after the 2 kids of a man who is 42 years old, almost double working full time, engaged to an amazing woman, just finished college, etc) and here I am, 6 months later, having to fight for the most basic of access and visitations, and she has free access to him, whenever she wants, and the court system is taking so incredibly long.

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