Why would anyone say ‘religion’ is here…to ‘control’ people?

reply to post by Jaruseleh


Your right it is troubling.

Again all I can say is that I have been on a very long journey, I've looked at the various spiritual philosophies, and I've looked at mainstream and alternative science, from it all I have asked myself the questions, how did this all get here, what is it that we have yet to see, and what is my purpose.

From the question how did this all get here, I have pondered long and hard on the nature of existence and whether we have a creator or not, and truly the logical explanation in my point of view (which I wont bore people with now) is that there was some form of creative entity in the beginning,

Their are many many laws which govern even just the physical universe which we are supposedly sure of and can interact with in quantifiable ways. To try and believe these laws and the perfect balance of creation came into being through pure chance is I think a fallacy.

Now I have my own idea of what the creator may be, I could try and explain it to you but ultimately it would be pointless because anything I could say to you would not be enough to describe the whole concept correctly, its why many religions will break god down into different aspects.

I'll give you a thought though, at the core of many religions, there is a mystery which essentially states we are all one, and that goes even further to express that we are all portions of the creators consciousness.

Put that with your own idea that the creator created and then walked away. What if the creator is stuck inside its own creation, fragmented into a billion billion different forms of life, what if the consciousness of the creator has split itself up so much that it doesn't remember the whole anymore, what would happen if we could help it to remember ?

Well speculation is interesting, I need to be more mindful of catching myself within religious traps, the important part is that we all try to continue to learn and evolve ourselves as a people to a higher state, it is an area that requires real open study, the current situation is not one that will lead to a healthy development for mankind and that at least is plain for all to see.

I do not believe for one minute that religion is a tool to control people. First of all, people are free(with the exception perhaps of a few countries) to choose to belong to a religion or not. Again, with a few exceptions(and I exclude cults like Jim Jones, etc) people can leave a religion, or choose not to adhere to all of its precepts.

Religion can be a very comforting aid to people, especially in times of need, and can set a moral compass for human beings.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
and can set a moral compass for human beings.

You may not realize this but those are tools of control being applied to you, whether it is for good or ill, please don't pretend it isn't happening when it is.

There comes a point when you choose your side, at that point you constrict your free will, there are positive reasons for doing so, these may also lead to negative reactions, every situation is different. But simply because the effect is beneficial does not take away that there is an inherent level of control in regards to the religious structure.

People are forgetting how much influence religion had on people pre 1900. To live religiously, is to live under a certain control, religious control.

I'm sure the Salem witch trials were not controlled by religion, the crusades? Religious people have no proof that the bible is real, just it controls them to a point of being way too bias.

What about trying to control homosexuals? Not understanding that they are the way they are and that if you try and change them you are only controlling them.

You can't expect religious people to understand the way in which their religion controls them, religion seems free and normal to them.

If you wish to understand how religion controls people, just become a phycologist.

Originally posted by LIMNES
reply to post by OldThinker

 

sorry i forgot to put that in quotation.

....that's ok....


but have you seen the evangelical preachers on sunday morning ?


....yes..

have you seen/noticed how the sheep behave on the floor listening to them ?

...yes....

do you actually believe that is normal behaviour ?


....no....

have you not heard of muslim fundamentalists blowing themselves up in the name of mohamed ?


....yes....


do you think this is normal?


....no.....


are you not aware of the vatican role in the vietnam war?


....relevance?....


have you not heard BUSH and every other dictator praise god when they carpet bomb entire cities to oblivion .


.....yes....


and you call me juvenile?


....on your other post, yes!.....


OT knows more than you know....I have no desire to hurt/harm/discredit you....are you ready to listen?

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
I do not believe for one minute that religion is a tool to control people. First of all, people are free(with the exception perhaps of a few countries) to choose to belong to a religion or not. Again, with a few exceptions(and I exclude cults like Jim Jones, etc) people can leave a religion, or choose not to adhere to all of its precepts.

Religion can be a very comforting aid to people, especially in times of need, and can set a moral compass for human beings.

This one is quite possibly the most concise, wise post to date....thoughts others?

OT

Originally posted by 1xion325alpha
People are forgetting how much influence religion had on people pre 1900.

You mean 52 of 55 signers of the Declaration of Independence?


God love them....you have the FREEDOM because of them, if you live in America...ru thankful?

OT

reply to post by OldThinker


I don't think anyone can argue that instilling the idea that murder is bad for example, or one should be faithful to their spouse, could be anything but beneficial.

But is it right for a religion to use these things as a smoke screen for the other things it does ? For every honest god loving pastor, there is another who is just phoning it in to make a living, or worse those abusing the positions of power they find themselves in to fulfill their own inner desires.

The trouble is I guess the more corporeal power you accumulate the more involved in the bigger picture you become, and at some point you can't avoid treating other people like resources, i wonder whether there is some trick in avoiding that mindset.

Either way absolute free will is dangerous, certain constraints do need to be in place that's what many people don't appreciate.

edit: reading that back i realized ive jumped around a lot of broad topics even in those few sentances, im tired ill retire now and try again tomorrow.


[edit on 5-2-2009 by gYvMessanger]

reply to post by gYvMessanger

You may not realize this but those are tools of control being applied to you, whether it is for good or ill, please don't pretend it isn't happening when it is.

I may not realize something that isn't happening?
I have free will, and choose what to believe and what precepts to follow. Please don't patronize me by making ludicrous claims that YOU KNOW anything about me, and my actions, thoughts and beliefs. Furthermore, I pretend nothing. Your post is rather insulting.

Originally posted by gYvMessanger


Either way absolute free will is dangerous, certain constraints do need to be in place that's what many people don't appreciate.

edit: reading that back i realized ive jumped around a lot of broad topics even in those few sentances, im tired ill retire now and try again tomorrow.

Good point ...power corrupts....and absolute powers corrupts absolutely...


I'm tied, too...see you tomorrow...God bless you gYvMessanger

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by 1xion325alpha
People are forgetting how much influence religion had on people pre 1900.

You mean 52 of 55 signers of the Declaration of Independence?


God love them....you have the FREEDOM because of them, if you live in America...ru thankful?

OT

Come now, that is a pretty biased point of view. I'm very big fans of the founding fathers, but they overall did not like the church. In fact, this country was founded by people who were seeking religious freedoms in many cases, as the older established religions wouldn't allow them to believe as they wanted.

And to get 52 of the 55, you are also stretching things in itself by including anyone who mentions god as being a christian. Many of them were deists.




[edit on 5-2-2009 by badmedia]

I'm sorry there's no need to be offended.

I am merely pointing out that when you choose to follow a set of rules, whether for good or for ill you are choosing to be controlled by the people who put those rules forth.

In that way you are choosing to constrict your free will.

I'm not suggesting that's necessarily a bad thing.

I believe in natural duality anyway, I don't think there is actual a natural pure state of "free will", your bound by laws your not aware of anyway (I'm not suggesting I'm aware of them either).

reply to post by ProfEmeritus



Prof, you both 'may' be tired....OT knows you both are 'wise'...not much distance between you two, in reality, as I can see...thanks for contributing here, ok?

OT

reply to post by gYvMessanger


the theory you posed is an interesting one, and one definitely worth considering. However, it's still just a theory. Maybe my mind is just too scientific for religion/spirituality. I require absolute proof in order to believe. I have my own theory...but I can't honestly say I believe in it, and I certainly can't bring myself to worship it.

Perhaps we all have this whole "God" thing all wrong. Perhaps there is no God, just the ideals that God represents, and we're trying to embody it...to make it something tangible.

I guess the bottom line is that nobody really knows for sure...which is where the whole "faith" thing comes in...the want and need to believe in something higher than yourself. To know that this life isn't your only life...that there's something afterward. My heart wants to believe it, but my mind tells me no. The only people who truly know are those who have passed on to the afterlife...or didn't pass on, as the case may possibly be. Kind of a morbid thought, but we simply won't know until we're dead.....or until God appears and proves himself (or herself...or itself. lol).

Originally posted by badmedia
a pretty biased point of view. I'm very big fans of the founding fathers, but they overall did not like the church. In fact, this country was founded by people who were seeking religious freedoms in many cases, as the older established religions wouldn't allow them to believe as they wanted.

And to get 52 of the 55, you are also stretching things in itself by including anyone who mentions god as being a christian. Many of them were deists.
[edit on 5-2-2009 by badmedia]

diests? Yes that is the conventional view....but badmedia, please look further in to it, ok?

Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of The Declaration of Independence were orthodox, deeply committed Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention.

link... www.johnnyleeclary.com... see there for more...

These guys were 'orthodox' of the day....and there was not 1st Deist Church of Plymouth, anywhere....

BM, You are probably one of the wisest on ATS, but OT has some info, that you may have not seen, fair? Take some time ok?

OT

Originally posted by Jaruseleh


I guess the bottom line is that nobody really knows for sure...which is where the whole "faith" thing comes in...the want and need to believe in something higher than yourself.



.....or until God appears and proves himself (or herself...or itself. lol).

J, point 1 above is true, it is about faith.....


Point 2....he already has...see Romans 1:20... 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

By what HAS BEEN MADE...is enough evidence for OT, you?

reply to post by Jaruseleh

reply to post by OldThinker


The Bible, unfortunately, can not be used as proof. Just because someone wrote something down about God, does not make it true. Interesting...but not true. I could write my own Bible: Jaruseleh's Bible. Write down many wondrous stories about how God came to me and talked to me. Of course, no one would believe me...but who knows, in 2,000 years, someone may find my book, and believe that these things really happened?

When I say I need proof, I literally need God to stand before me, look me in the eye, and do something that proves to me without a shadow of a doubt that I have a deity standing in front of me. I just can't bring myself to put my faith into something I do not know is really there.

Consider for just one moment, that there is no God. That religion has it all wrong. What then? The way I see it, there's a 50/50 chance God is real. Either he is, or he isn't. So what if one spends their whole life devoting themselves to their religion, and their God, only to find out that there is none? I'd rather spend my life living it the best way I know how, and not wasting any time with religion, and find out later that there is a God, than spend my precious time worshiping something that very well may not even be there.

Here's the worst part: I'm a good person...I try to do the right things, and try to stick to a moral compass...but because I don't believe in God, I'm going to burn in hell. However, Joe Schmoe the child raping priest gets to go to heaven, because he believes, and asks for forgiveness. There is something insanely wrong with that to me. So why would I put my faith in it?

Originally posted by Jaruseleh
If God DOES know the future, then we do not have free will.

Questionable premise here J,

See... www.abovetopsecret.com...


I've done much research on 'pistis' and 'quantum physics'....


Please look it over ok?

OT
the 'Substance of things'....whew...mindblowing....see also Colosisans

[edit on 5-2-2009 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by Jaruseleh

When I say I need proof, I literally need God to stand before me, look me in the eye, and do something that proves to me without a shadow of a doubt that I have a deity standing in front of me. I just can't bring myself to put my faith into something I do not know is really there.

OK....'doubting Thomas', I mean 'Jaruseleh'......



OT is prayin' you meet Him that way....


btw, Tulsa is nice tonight, but I'm tied...talk to you later this weekend bro!

OT