Why would anyone say ‘religion’ is here…to ‘control’ people?

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Thank you for sharing. Whatever we call ourselves, we largely agree on the most important level, as I see it.

aaww, no problem...this is sure fun....ATS is great for providing a forum!

OT

Originally posted by argilla11

Originally posted by OldThinker
9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

Still working on that one.

me tooo....

OT


PS: About your earlier comment....promise of the after-life did not originate with "organized religion...I think that was JC though?

Originally posted by OldThinker

I have a few questions, if you may…please no flaming, ‘civility and decorum’ expected, right?

1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses? YES

2) Why?
Because Religions dictate behavior and determine what is right/wrong Good/evil.

3) Your evidence?
Religions give idolatrous power to their Holy Scriptures.....and use them to back-up their own political/philosophical ends.

4) Did you once believe? YES

5) Did you change? YES

6) Why are you an atheist?
Because I don't believe there is a God

7) Why are you an agnostic?
Ummm I'm not an Agnostic!

8) Why you are a christian?
That's the last thing I'd want to be.

9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?
The Ancient of Days/Santa Clause - judges and rewards Good and punishes Bad. He sees us while we're sleeping - he sees us when we're awake - he knows everything

[edit on 2/4/2009 by MyXlog]

[edit on 2/4/2009 by MyXlog]

Originally posted by toochaos4u
3) Your evidence? Where do you start from twisted meanings of bible verses to young girls being denied insulin and dying. From witch burnings, to crusades, from destroying cultures, to destroying an individual's spirit. From Falwell's Claims to Swaggart's shame.

Twisted meanings? Where? Some OT questionable things, but that does not APPLY to us...have you heard of hermanuetics? a text without context is PRETEXT>

Girls and insulin? Is that in the scriptures? Or was that some naive person in Utah?

Witch burnings? Crusades? Got anything 'evidence' more recent? Something VERIFIABLE? And not an interpretation of a story that someonw MIGHT heave heard...?????

Falwell claims? What, I need some more specifics please?


OT needs the A GAME bro, not some REHASH....ok? Fair?

Originally posted by MyXlog
2) Why?
Because Religions dictate behavior and determine what is right/wrong Good/evil.

Thank you for the post....


WHO dictates behavior?

Where??


Speaking of GOOD and EVIL...are they real, or just made up?

OT

Originally posted by OldThinker
WHO dictates behavior? Where??

Speaking of GOOD and EVIL...are they real, or just made up?

Religious Leaders dictate behavior based on their interpretations of their particular Holy Scriptures.

Good and Evil are arbitrary - one man's Good is another man's Evil.

The determinations of religious 'Good' usually create a corresponding condition of 'Evil' in those that do not abide by that "Good"

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by badmedia

 

badmedia, Always thoughtful responses from you...

Question...if you believe God is all powerful....and I think you do....could He not preserve his written message? Even with imperfect humans messing with it? Isn't that logical? Certainly He wouldn't allow 'HIS'message to be changed, if he wanted to convey, right?

OT

When I learned what I did, I seen that everything was always there staring me in the face. What changed was my perspective and understanding. A few understandings here and there lead to many more. And all this can be seen in the world itself, all around and such, not just in the bible.

And that is what I see as deception. Not giving the correct perspective and understanding. Christians see themselves as being saved by John 3:16. And then they think they need to believe in Jesus and that is it. I would say you are saved when you experienced John 14:20 for yourself, and "on that day you will know". And that is also said to be followed by the holy spirit. And that is what I experienced.

So it is there for those who seek. It is "hidden" in a way that is truly brilliant.

I see things in a totally different way. What you call a church, I see in the bible as a synagogue. Where it says Jew, I see Christian. Where it says rabbi, I see priest. Where it says Pharisee, I see John Hagee. When Jesus talks about the rock he is building his church on, I see this as meaning like it does in Matthew 7. The rock is not physical. He is talking about building your own personal church of knowledge, understanding and wisdom. Which is in both heaven and on earth within you, is what is rich in the eyes of god.

In the church I see prophecy fulfilled. I see a religion that is formed after the death of Jesus in his name. It is done through political means and rests in the powers of this earth(same ones who murder Jesus). This religion then proceeds to kill anyone who doesn't agree with it, calls anyone who doesn't go along a heretic and so on. It then begins to war. This religion will not be happy until the religion itself is across the entire world. And I see people in this religion today still waiting for prophecy that has been fulfilled. And because they look everywhere but in their own house, they fail to see it.

I do not see Jesus as a sacrifice. I believe those who see him that way see it as a sacrifice of the truth, so that the lie(they) could live. I believe it is in his life and his example that saves people, as those who truly believe will follow him. I'd have to agree with Bill Hicks. Walking around with a cross around your neck is about like remembering JFK with a rifle pendent. When Jesus talks about carrying the cross, this is not what he means.

So when someone says "do you believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins", I'm at a bit of loss for words. Because I know in the mainstream view, this means he washes away your sins. But I do not agree. I would say yes, but my reason is that he did what he did to be an example, even though he did not have to do it. That is his true grace.

Pretty much, what I learned was the path Jesus talks about, and the things Jesus says is true. And then when I read Paul, I see things I wasn't supposed to do. Like I was shown that the idol and symbols aren't the important parts, it was the message itself that were the reason. When people put all the importance on the idol to save them, then they are focusing on the idol, not the message and then they end up walking the broad path. This manipulation I first recognized in government, with the way they wave the flag and praise the constitution, but don't actually follow it. I see the same thing in religion.

There is alot of things I see different.

Originally posted by MyXlog

Originally posted by OldThinker
WHO dictates behavior? Where??

Speaking of GOOD and EVIL...are they real, or just made up?

...Good and Evil are arbitrary - one man's Good is another man's Evil.
....

??? Dangerous point there...really....


Alright, humor me....'arbitrary', uummm...let's take that thought and bring it to life....so if HITLER WON WW2, HE AND HIS BOYS WOULD HAVE BEEN 'GOOD' AND WE WOULD HAVE TO HAVE DEALT WITH WHATEVER????

Nah, you really don't believe that do you? Better put some time on that, see a bit more of life...and re-evaluate...I'll be here online waiting/watching for your response bro...

OT

'down-under would sure look different today!

Let me ask you a question:

Why are you here on ATS 'representing' your savior? Why do you think you need to? On a conspiracy site no less? Your threads are more about defending God/Religion/TheBible than they are exploring any real conspriacy.

I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to understand because it seems a little out of place. I'm frankly a bit boggled that there's so much discussion about religion here on these boards, and again, much of it isn't conspiracy oriented, but rather, either theological debate or 'representing'.

reply to post by badmedia


whew....lot of meat in your post....give me some time to digest...still want you to continue to think of my question...could he not preserve his message? No need to reply, just think on that...good night. Late here....





[edit on 4-2-2009 by OldThinker]

1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses? It obviously has in the past, this results from people picking and choosing what parts they like and then take them to far. this leads to extremism like some muslims. i have good friends that are muslim but are not extremists. there are extremist christians too i wont argue that
2) Why?^^
3) Your evidence? history
4) Did you once believe? i did, didnt, and now do
5) Did you change? i believed at one time before i did any research, then i stopped believing just for no reason, then i decided to really look in to things and i believe i can argue against evolution or answer any question one has about the bible now days.
6) Why are you an atheist? not
7) Why are you an agnostic? not
8) Why you are a christian? because jesus truly is the messiah and have proven it to myself through many many many hours of research, not hearsay
9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like? It is not our place to say what or question how God should be. based on the idea of god, he knows better than we do what he is up to

Originally posted by Jadette
Let me ask you a question:

Why are you here on ATS 'representing' your savior? Why do you think you need to? On a conspiracy site no less? Your threads are more about defending God/Religion/TheBible than they are exploring any real conspriacy.

I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to understand because it seems a little out of place. I'm frankly a bit boggled that there's so much discussion about religion here on these boards, and again, much of it isn't conspiracy oriented, but rather, either theological debate or 'representing'.

Lots of posts/lots of responses...the answers are in there, Jadette. OT's got to go to bed now, sorry...


If you don't like my threads you have many many chooses, ok? And if you don't think the EXISTENCE OF AN INTRUSIVE SUPREME BEING ISN"T a conspiracy, what else is? More important? Sasquatch? Boogie man? Greys? the illuminati?

THERE IS NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT TO ATS READERS THAN THIS STUFF...IN OT'S HUMBLE OPINION...

Insightful question thereJ!!!!


OT "representing!"

reply to post by resonance



Well done!!!

Sounds like you have some EXPERIENCE with this life thang!!!!

OT

reply to post by OldThinker


ha thanks, im only 19 but about 3 years ago i really decided i needed to figure out what i believed..since then i have spent most of my time doing research

Originally posted by OldThinker

Alright, humor me....'arbitrary', uummm...let's take that thought and bring it to life....so if HITLER WON WW2, HE AND HIS BOYS WOULD HAVE BEEN 'GOOD' AND WE WOULD HAVE TO HAVE DEALT WITH WHATEVER????

Hitler and his boys certainly would have thought themselves "GOOD" why else do you think Hitler declared, "Today Deutschland, tomorrow the World"

And as for us - we would have surely considered the Nazi Dictator's regime as "EVIL" because we are not Nazi's. If we were Nazi's we'd think differantly.

Any leader is doing what he ultimately thinks is "Good" even if it appears 'evil' to us. Mugabe is a good contemporary example. I do not think Mugabe thinks he is in anyway Evil.

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by badmedia

 

whew....lot of meat in your post....give me some time to digest...still want you to continue to think of my question...could he not preserve his message? No need to reply, just think on that...good night. Late here....

The only way you can learn anything is by the holy spirit. The holy spirit preserves it, always has and will.

John 14

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This is not referring to the bible. These are spiritual things.

I do not think organized religion's sole purpose is to control the masses, but rather many organized religions are headed by people who do not always have the purest of motives or noblest of intentions in mind. Heads of organized religions often use their power to exploit their followers for their own gain. In the process of this exploitation, they manipulate or control the thoughts and acts of their followers.

For example, many religions collect tithes and other donations from their followers. In order to maximize the donations they collect, the leaders may control their followers in various ways. For example, they may require their followers to "be fruitful and multiply" so the religion will have more members and thus collect more donations. They may also put pressure on the members to donate. They may suggest (or explicitly state) that a member may go to hell or otherwise be ostrasized if they fail to donate.

Originally posted by MyXlog
Hitler and his boys certainly would have thought themselves "GOOD" why else do you think Hitler declared, "Today Deutschland, tomorrow the World"

And as for us - we would have surely considered the Nazi Dictator's regime as "EVIL" because we are not Nazi's. If we were Nazi's we'd think differantly.

Any leader is doing what he ultimately thinks is "Good" even if it appears 'evil' to us. Mugabe is a good contemporary example. I do not think Mugabe thinks he is in anyway Evil.

Yes, each side plays the evil for the other. But as each side refused to look at it from the other side, they never see their own evils. Instead, they focus on the evil of the other side, and those in power use propaganda as a means of highlighting the other sides evil, while making them appear to be good.

Thus to be hypocrites. Happens in religion too among those who focus on the idols. They don't focus on the message itself, or do what is says, so they think they are "justified" in their actions because they do it in the name of the religion etc.

Only if you look at things from both sides can you see the truth.

See, and Jesus tells people this. It's because he says things like this that I don't believe what those kind of people do are representative of him or someone who follows him.

Matthew 7

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

reply to post by OldThinker



I wasn't sure this was a debate type front only a list of personal beliefs but, anyway, lol.

Twisted meanings? Where? There are many words mistranslated in the bible and many things taken to condemn taken out of context. This is what I am referring to. There are many posts on this and I am not prepared at this time to find them again as I have been Taoist for years and not Christian.

Girls and insulin? Is that in the scriptures? Or was that some naive person in Utah?
That was the person in Utah as you full well know that proves that religion controls because it had parents standing by watching as their child dies because their religion and would not seek help.

Witch burnings? Crusades? Got anything 'evidence' more recent? Something VERIFIABLE? And not an interpretation of a story that someonw MIGHT heave heard...?????

The Crusades,
Wiki article on the Crusades

Salem Witch Trials of 1692
Salem Witch Trials of 1692
Earliest version of Control: Just kill off whomever is different!

Recent-Becky Fisher/Jesus Camp at one time worshiped a cardboard Bush and taught about a new Christian Zionism: Controlling and brainwashing children.
Becky Fisher (Jesus Camp) more recent

Southern Baptist Coalition Support Iraqi War, Seek Converts!

Falwell saw law school as tool to alter society-seeks lawsuits to enforce Christian ideals (population control)

Falwell claims? What, I need some more specifics please?

Fallwell's Claims
Blames gays, abortionists, pagans for 9/11

"JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

Falwell attacks Teletubbies!

Jerry Falwell made the preposterous claim that a popular children's TV character is a homosexual.

OT needs the A GAME bro, not some REHASH....ok? Fair?
Haha what game many others were like very concise with yes or no.



[edit on 4/2/2009 by toochaos4u]

[edit on 4/2/2009 by toochaos4u]

Originally posted by OldThinker
I have a few questions, if you may…please no flaming, ‘civility and decorum’ expected, right?

1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?

Yes.

Originally posted by OldThinker
2) Why?

Many reasons. It is easier to control people by telling them what God wants them to do, and making sure they never, ever, find out for themselves.. Limitations.

So that no one ever considered taking the tight, rocky paths to awaken to the real portion of God within us all. This sort of action is forbidden by your belief-system, and is thought to be something those "fooled by Satan would do".

When awakened, you can clearly see the bigger picture realities, easily commune with the Source without needing reference by someone else who has been elevated by human vote to being God's mouthpiece when they have no "real" personal two-way relationship with the Source.

One such limitation we are offered in the Judeo-Christian belief-system is that Adam and Eve were the origianl humans, they had two sons. One killed his brother and was expelled from the garden. Before leaving he is frantic, paraphrasing here, "What if I am set upon by the others?" And later he takes a wife from the others, yes? Okay, who then are those others if his mum and dad, his dead brother were the only human beings on the planet?

Originally posted by OldThinker
3) Your evidence?

That's a difficult one as you seek something that cannot be offered in words, but only through personal and direct experience outside the box of Beliefs.

Human history to date is a perfect proof.

My experience versus the Indoctrinations of Belief.

The clear knowledge that the Hebrews left Sumer with what is now called the Book of Genesis, which like it or not, is a heavily edited account of the original texts known as the Sumerian Tablets. Which my dear old mentor spent many years deciphering for the British Museum at the same time as Sitchin.. they argued over many of his additions and perspectives added to his work, lol.

Again, we cannot discount this as myth because I know for fact that science has been verifying a large portion of the detailed information left to us those 7,500 years ago.

Originally posted by OldThinker
4) Did you once believe?

No. I was fortunate not to be forced into the brainwashing as a small child, so that I was free to experience for myself and choose what I wished to believe when I had grown to enough maturity to do so.

10 years ago I did do a bible study program for about 4 months with some very lovely people. I learned exactly how the Indoctrination process works. Please do not be offended by the use of the term Indoctrination.. it only describes the Process of Teaching Doctrine, yes?

Originally posted by OldThinker
5) Did you change?

not applicable

Originally posted by OldThinker
6) Why are you an atheist?

I am not an atheist. I simply do not believe in how it is portrayed, I only know from experience that what you call God is everything, yet I do not call it by a name or tag that is so confined, except for ease in a conversation. I had strong awareness and real experiences of other reality/bigger pictures as a 5 year old, that could not, and never will be suitably answered by any Doctrine or Belief-System.

Originally posted by OldThinker
7) Why are you an agnostic?

I think you will find the original meaning of that word is something very much like,"One who knows" and perhaps even, "One who knows the Self", as opposed to it's current meaning.

I digress here, okay? Quote from Jesus as recorded by Thomas in the Nag Hammadi Library, "When you come to know your self, then you will become known. And you will realise it is you who are the sons of the living father."

Originally posted by OldThinker
8) Why you are a christian?

I try to choose my actions as Jesus would have, that does not make me a Christian in the typically agreed sense of believing in the doctrine.

I see Jesus as a man. A man who had awareness beyond the Belief-System he was indoctrinated into as a child in the ancient Hebrew world. I see that he desired for everyone to truly know that, "The kingdom of heaven is within you, and without.", and, "As I do, so can you.", Which tells me he meant we are all equal souls in the sight of God, and yes, equal to him if we so choose to awaken to the same level of awareness.

Originally posted by OldThinker
9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

How can we human beings make any claims about what aspects or characteristics a God would have without having personal, direct communion with it?

It looks like everything we can see and everything we can't for it is everything. It acts like itself, which we are a part of, so it acts like all things we see and can't see. As a friend said when asked, "Who are you?", she replied, "I am god being me and you, and that person over there, and that tree."

One thing is for sure, it would not act like the vindictive, blood-thirsty, egotistical god of the jewish people! The god Jesus spoke of was Loving and cared about us as he cared about all his creation.

I hope none of what is written here is offensive to you, it is not meant to be. It is only meant to be as honest an answer to your questions as I can muster.

Be well.