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President Obama to water down 'Buy American' plan after EU trade war threat

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posted on Feb, 3 2009 @ 11:48 PM
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reply to post by Frankidealist35
 


This has got ZERO to do with "American Haters" as you put it, and no, people aren't scared of America becoming great again, as you also put it. It's about being accountable to the rest of the worlds countries and citizens, just as you can rightly expect from us.

Try taking some responsibility for plunging the rest of the world into economical turmoil. Yes it's America's fault, like it or not!

Now you say, "Buy American". In other words, don't import but hey, feel free to export! It doesn't work that way. You can't have your cake and eat it! The door swings both ways.

You've created a worldwide economical meltdown and it's your responsibility along with the rest of us to get this world economy back on it's feet again. That is, if you wish to take an active role in the free world and free markets in the future. Not take your marbles and run. It's got nothing to do with bowing to the pressures of the EU or the elite. That's plain conspiratorial paranoia!

It's your type of thinking and attitude (on a larger scale) that has given America an unsavory complexion.


IRM


[edit on 4/2/09 by InfaRedMan]




posted on Feb, 3 2009 @ 11:58 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Incredible to see how America has lost its Sovereignty to the greed global elite.

Where are the American patriots, the fighters of this nation and the supporters of Americas constitution.

What we have in our nations government is nothing more than a whole bunch of traitors.


They died along with their opposition... If no one is oppressing American sovereignty, then how is it justified? We live in a highly interconnected world, where millions of lives are entirely dependent on the successful functioning of an uninterrupted global market economy. The clauses in that stimulus package are irresponsible. Why should some people in this world claim greater access to wealth than others? What is the standard by which we make such claims? The nepotism of nationalism is an irresponsible operation wavering on human neglect for life and its deserved equality.

Patriotism is born out of oppression. You look to your forefathers for guidance and duly, in apostrophic praise, carry out what you presume to be their unwavering cause. But when you're being poked by a stick for being an ass, I'm pretty sure ol' pops gonna wanna smack some sense into ya.

[edit on 4-2-2009 by cognoscente]



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 03:18 AM
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Wow...so much ignorance under one roof, it's staggering. Then again, I'm not much surprised to see this socialist speak on both sides of the aisle from ATS members, as they cast off any blame or real explanation so as to pin it on the "greedy" elites.

Stupidity. Anyone here NOT heard of the Hawley-Smoot tariff before?

I'm taking it as you all haven't, as no one brought it up - and there were so many good opportunities to. It was a "protectionist" maneuver, taxing all foreign imports by a staggering 50%, the highest ever in our nation's history. This was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, and arguably catalyzed the recession to the 1930's depression.

How did this happen? Shouldn't those protectionist "buy American" measures have worked? Nope. =] Because the European countries hit us back with "Hawley-Smoots" of their own.

I side with our European posters on this one, even overtly hostile ones like stumason.

Frankidealist and marg6043, you're both fools. Thinking that there's somehow some exception to the rule that we can play fair or some "exception" to normal economic participation, such as not accepting any more debt, is a fallacy. It not only demonstrates the American hubris that we're so often stereotyped with, but the lack of understanding that caused this crisis in the first place.

I would appreciate it if you came to a realization of this ignorance, for everyone's betterment. But I see that as not likely, as you have the "sovereign" right to believe the facts are wrong.



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 03:41 AM
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I'm going to have to take a side here I suppose.

America having a protectionist policy is not a bad thing at all. Not for America.

If you think that having such a policy led to the recession of the 30's, I suggest you look more into income taxes and the federal reserve. It was what i would consider a manufactured mess, and not by accident. Flawed policy yes, but do you really think lawmakers are so stupid they can not see what will happen from their policies? NO. They know it will work for them, which obviously it did considering a majority of families still hold office today, whether in government, or in corporations.

Remember what started the American Revolution? Americans had to export all their goods and import others, causing a deficit. The colonies were constantly poor.

Do you really think that operating without a deficit is impossible? good god man you need to check your head. The last thing we need in this world is an endless cycle of debt, all owed back and forth, across to different nations and banks etc. until we are all slaves to debt.

This bill was wrong because putting money into the system is the last thing we need to do, because it will in fact be debt, or deficit, itself. But the protectionist part of it actually is not that bad of an idea. America does not manufacture Jack Crap anymore. We outsource everything. And guess where that has led? To an economic crisis for the entire world it would seem.

And now we have a lot of you europeans stewing over an AMERICAN policy. Settle down folks. You're going to get whatever you want, because the same elitists who control you, control us too, Obviously.

And that is the problem. I'm sorry you guys have to live in the EU now and have lost your sovereignty, but I strongly believe in a nation's right to guide itself. You've succumbed to the PTB, but America will not do the same thing.

If, or when, it comes down to it, we will do the same thing our fore fathers did. and it doesnt involve capitulating.



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 03:48 AM
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reply to post by jmilla
 


Tell you what, America stops buying imported goods. As a result, the rest of the world begins to decline more rapidly so we stop buying America's exports in retalliation. The EU and China stop buying the American debt.

Where does that put the world?

Trade wars, followed by massive global unrest followed by the biggest revolution this world has ever seen. Blood, guts and billions of dead.

Good plan there.

[edit on 4/2/2009 by Kryties]



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 04:02 AM
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China decided to allow European firms to access contracts for their massive stimulus package - shutting the United States out after "Buy American" Act.

Regarding the European Union, if we include all 27 members (not just the Eurozone Union) the EU is the largest economy in the world. A trade war, which Russia and China will aligned with Europe, would be very ugly.



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 04:04 AM
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reply to post by jmilla
 



If you think that having such a policy led to the recession of the 30's, I suggest you look more into income taxes and the federal reserve. It was what i would consider a manufactured mess, and not by accident.


I know where you're going with this. Omit the details and paint an incomplete picture so it serves your world view that capitalists are scary, power-hungry, overlords.

Whether this is "manufactured" or "accidental" on your part, I have no clue, but for now, I must consider the former.

The Great Depression cannot be quite summed up to ONE event, or one cause, but a myriad of effects, all of which screwed with the normal liquidity of credit, not just in the U.S., but worldwide.

Broaden your scope. Yes, some of it was the Federal Reserve and taxes, but this does not account for the entire world suffering as said before, and it wasn't until post-WW2 that America arose as a hegemony of industrial power. We had held a position bilaterally before, prior to WWI, when other countries still had manufacturing bases, but it was solidified after the war.

This is more hubris. (Btw, whether or not the EU has sovereignty is a cheap shot.) Protectionism will not benefit our industries, not for a continued period of years. Do you really want to launch into economic isolationism because globalization is the "big bad boogieman"?

The only people who believe that we are immune to trade deficits and debt here, indeed any real economic shocks, are the protectionists. And here's a quote directly from marg6043:


My friend how can America be hurt when we have one of the biggest trade deficit in the world.

We buy more than we trade, how do you expect any America to see this as fair?


To put it simply, just because we don't have an industrial base in this country anymore, doesn't mean we are above the law of economics. Every choice we have made, actually, has been through greed, which in turn was fueled by equally bad policy decisions (read: taxes, "free trade agreements") that eroded our factories.

Yes, indeed, if we collapse, the world will fall...but will pick itself up and will move on with or without us. Now is not time to spout collectivist rhetoric: "America first rah RAH!" And time to start applying basic economics in order to fix this crisis.



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 04:09 AM
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reply to post by SpencerJ
 


Hell, continuing from my last post, if you guys are so afraid of an Orwellian future where the "PTB" have carved us up into individual markets, and continue to exploit the local populaces or what have you, go through with this protectionism and play right into "their" hands.

You'll see this staunch collectivist entitlement to buy for pride instead of price turn into desperation. And from there, to new union. Hell, there's your "NAU" right there. And guess what? I made that argument practically, just adding in your favorite evil illuminati puppetmasters for effect.


[edit on 4-2-2009 by SpencerJ]



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 04:57 AM
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Some people are so small-minded and have so little knowledge about economics. Sure, give it a try and isolate yourself with all kind of protectionism measures like the Soviet Union did (which wanted to be self-sufficient). We all know how it ended up. Globalization is a fact and it cannot be denied. We didn't ask for America to export this crisis to us still we got it - that's the drawback of globalization.

Other countries are more competitive in certain fields than the US will ever be itself, you better accept it than fight it. Of course the people want heavy industry to remain in the US and are angered when they lose their job because the company decided to move to Asia to improve its competitive position, keeping these industries is certainly not strengthening the economy, it weakens the economy. Instead, you should look for alternatives and try to be innovative.

It's a fact that Western companies cannot compete with developing countries in certain fields due to our lack of a low-wage labor force. In Europe they shifted decades ago to a service-based industry while in the US they remained dependent on industries. Obviously, the US is also service-based, but also relies a lot on industries, which now backfires on them.

Anyhow, I posted this article in another thread about this subject, but this one seems to have been posted before. It's very interesting and I suggest to read it:


Most economists agree the Depression began with the U.S. stock market crash of 1929, but it took Reed Smoot and Willis Hawley to really make it "Great."

The two U.S. politicians sought to protect U.S. workers from cheaper European imports and in July 1930 wrote a bill that hiked tariffs on 20,000 imported goods.

In one sense, it worked great.

The U.S. State Department says the Smoot-Hawley Tariff was responsible for imports from Europe declining from a 1929 high of $1.3 billion to just $390 million in 1932.

As for protecting the American worker, unemployment was at 7.8 per cent in 1930 when the bill was passed, but jumped to 25.1 per cent by 1933. U.S. exports to Europe fell from $2.3 billion in 1929 to $784 million in 1932.

Canada didn’t even wait for the Smoot-Hawley to pass before it retaliated. In their book International Economics In the Age of Globalization, authors Wilson Brown and Jan Hogendorn say Canada put new duties on 16 U.S. imports to Canada, affecting about 30 per cent of cross-border trade. A month after the bill was passed, 125 products were hit with new or higher tariffs, and Canada looked to Britain and the Empire for new markets.

Now Smoot and Hawley are back.

On Monday, International Trade Minister Stockwell Day compared the provisions in the new U.S. stimulus bill to the pair.

As written, the bill would require major public works projects to favour U.S. steel, iron and manufactured goods over imported ones.

Canada sells about $11-billion worth of steel to the U.S. every year, and Day worries other U.S. industries will lobby for similar protections. Although he says he’s “cautiously optimistic” the U.S. will back down.

"Their awareness of our concern, and wanting to do something, appears genuine at this point. And we'll just keep working closely with them," Day said.

"The last thing we need now is a retaliatory trade war."

It’s an issue that forces politicians to a tough place. Whatever benefits they see to their own economies from freer trade, they must be responsive to the voters who don’t necessarily appreciate the exquisite market forces that move their jobs overseas or flood their markets with cheap foreign grain.

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown may champion "British jobs for British workers" at a Labour party conference, but he was in a tough position this week when thousands of British workers went on wildcat strikes, protesting the use of cheaper Italian and Portuguese workers by British contractors.

Still, the laws of the European Union seem quite clear: they allow for free movement of labour.

Source


Just ask yourself what would happen if Canada and the EU would do the same or worse, forbid any US products to be imported... what it would lead to in the US: even higher unemployment rates and a more severe crisis. It has happened before, don't let it happen again.

From a economic point of view, the EU is much stronger than the US, also taking into account the volatility of the Dollar and the current crisis that hit the US harder than the EU and a trade war would not benefit the Americans nor the Europeans.



[edit on 4-2-2009 by Mdv2]



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 05:08 AM
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reply to post by Mdv2
 


Thank you. Just thank you.

So much ignorance here.



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 05:32 AM
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how about when container ships are turned around outside ports because they can`t pay landing fee`s in cash in the local currency?

or oil is over night traded in euro`s

whilst protecting your own workers is a good thing , when your an international trading partner , shutting them out and hiking taxes is not the way to do it.,



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 06:39 AM
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What many doesn't understand is, that without a stimulus for the America economy only the rest of the world will die alone with the decline of the America consumerism.

How can America the biggest consumer of the world can support others nations economy while going bankrupt.

Think, people the link is there and guess what brake America you brake the rest of the world with it.



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 07:01 AM
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maybe we should let this pass?
the US can trade amongst them selves and every other nation can trade with each other baring any exports from the US or putting high tariffs on them?

that way we can see how well the US does without the rest of the world

good idea?



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 07:05 AM
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It seems this new bailout proposal in only American in regards to the money associated with financing it. The President has caved in under pressure of the EU regarding the "Buy American" clause.

In essence, this will result in US taxpayer money helping to "bailout" foreign countries. Its a sad state in our nation when the EU's view on the US is more important to the President than taking care of the American worker. The EU loves to be so critical of the US in EVERY international decision that is made - BUT don't even think about taking the money away.

The US is already facing huge trade deficits and the original "Buy American" clause would not even have come close to helping close that gap.

I hope that Congress has the good sense to vote down any type of American taxpayer funded bailout that is not going to specifically help American people.

Sorry EU, come up with your own bailout.



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 07:08 AM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


How's this for an idea:

en.wikipedia.org...


World Uranium Supply

Canada (27.9% of world production) and Australia (22.8%)

United States (2.5%)


How about we stop selling you Uranium? Lets see how far you get without power.

And that's just for starters.......



[edit on 4/2/2009 by Kryties]



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 07:18 AM
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Originally posted by slicobacon
In essence, this will result in US taxpayer money helping to "bailout" foreign countries. Its a sad state in our nation when the EU's view on the US is more important to the President than taking care of the American worker. The EU loves to be so critical of the US in EVERY international decision that is made - BUT don't even think about taking the money away.


Dude, you don't get it do you? GLOBALIZATION! How often do you want me to repeat it? It cannot be denied, it is here whether you like it or not. Why do you think all world leaders are urging each other to work together and stimulate the economies? Because we have become dependent upon each other. I for one wouldn't give a damn if the US would be so ignorant to make the mistake it already made during the great depression as you can read in the article I posted. Let's see how it works out, but there's no question on mind that the US will be in a much worse position by isolating itself rather than cooperating with the world.

I don't know whether you are aware of it but without China, Japan and the EU, America would be bankrupt It is the world that finances America while it is America that brought this crisis upon us all. If America decides to fight its allies with a trade war, I can guarantee you that it won't take long for the Dollar to fall.



The US is already facing huge trade deficits and the original "Buy American" clause would not even have come close to helping close that gap.

I hope that Congress has the good sense to vote down any type of American taxpayer funded bailout that is not going to specifically help American people.

Sorry EU, come up with your own bailout.



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 07:47 AM
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We could buy more American products, if we taxed corporations *less* and made it more attractive for the larger businesses to STAY in the US. Right now it is smarter to move things overseas, have cheaper labor and pay a whole lot less taxes.

No, we should not restrict trade. We should not put more tariffs on imported goods. We should make it more beneficial for American companies to stay on American soil.

The "tax the evil rich" only serves to send the evil rich overseas to avoid the higher tax rate. Can you blame them?



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Screw that and your EU! You people only complain that American products are crap and dont buy anything that helps OUR working class, only our elite and the wealthy.

WHEN we have our "New American Revolution" we will stop buying your goods.

Then you can all go to hell.



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 12:24 PM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 12:32 PM
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reply to post by Kryties
 


Guess what this more than just some WTO countries crying foul play, this about some WTO countries that actually wants America to bend their knees and completely collapse, so they can claim superiority.

This not about the buying only America what they have in mind, because the truth is yes the truth is that the clause is for the steel companies mainly.

The rest of the stimulus is going to stimulate consumer spending and taking into consideration that America doesn't produce anything else than cars and steel mainly right now the rest of the stimulus will still go into boosting the WTO countries.

So what else the WTO wants, the American people blood or the nations blood.

Read and learn my friend.

Trade Deficit Could Explode With Stimulus Package


Long ago we came to terms with the fact that our sneakers were made in Asia, but we forget how many of our Ford and GM vehicles are made in Mexico and Canada. If the stimulus plan continues on in its current form it will include over $300 billion in tax breaks, a large portion of which will be directed at direct individual rebates.The recipients of these rebates will then be encouraged by the government to go out and spend frivolously in hopes of rebuilding our dwindling economy. Those who do go out and spend will almost certainly buy foreign-made goods.

In essence the U.S. government will borrow from overseas to fund its national stimulus, give money to the people and tell them to spend, and then watch the money go back overseas via our import addiction. We will borrow money and immediately return most of it back to the creditors via a middleman, but our debt obligation will be unchanged and will accumulate interest.


www.economyincrisis.org...

So 300 billion dollars is not enough for the WTO they wanted all, hell I guess we the generous American people should just sign the entire bill and put it in the WTO hands, and still they will not be happy.

I say kill the WTO and send it to hell

I actually believe that this what the WTO wants to collapse, destroy and anhilate the Nation of the US and its citizens.


[edit on 4-2-2009 by marg6043]



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