The bible – god’s word or mans?

reply to post by luciferhorus

How did Judas die?

(a) After he threw the money into the temple he went away and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5)

(b) After he bought the field with the price of his evil deed he fell headlong and burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out (Acts 1:18)

Both are correct from different perspectives

Matthew seems to deal with the mode of the suicide, while Acts describes the result.
Combining the two accounts, it appears that Judas tried to hang himself over some cliff, but the rope or tree limb broke so that he plunged down and burst open on the rocks below. The topography around Jerusalem makes such an event conceivable.

No contradiction here.

reply to post by luciferhorus

Is the law of Moses useful?

(a) Yes. “All scripture is... profitable...” (2 Timothy 3:16)

(b) No. “. . . A former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness... “(Hebrews 7:18)

I will pick this one as it has more value and has been debated before.
The answer of coarse is yes, it is useful, but why?
1) It is the old historical laws that God wants us to know about.
2) It is gives us an idea on how God thinks about various things.
3) If they are in-line with the new testament then they still apply.
for example murder & adultery

The apostle Paul a former practicer of Judaism explained it best as to why the law no longer applies once Christ came, 3 Versions.

Galatians 3:23-25 (The Message)
23-24Until the time when we were mature enough to respond freely in faith to the living God, we were carefully surrounded and protected by the Mosaic law. The law was like those Greek tutors, with which you are familiar, who escort children to school and protect them from danger or distraction, making sure the children will really get to the place they set out for.
25-27But now you have arrived at your destination: By faith in Christ you are in direct relationship with God. Your baptism in Christ was not just washing you up for a fresh start. It also involved dressing you in an adult faith wardrobe—Christ's life, the fulfillment of God's original promise.


Galatians 3:23-27 (New Living Translation)
23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.
24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.
26 For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.


Galatians 3:23-27 (NSB)
23 But before faith came, we were held in custody by the Law. We were locked up until faith was revealed.
24 The Law was our schoolmaster (Greek: paedagogue: a combination of schoolmaster, instructor, servant and guardian in charge of us) to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you who were baptized into Christ put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.


And lets not take that scripture to much out of context.
Hebrews 7: 18&19
18 The former commandment was set aside because it was weak and useless.
19 The Law could not make anything perfect. A better hope has been provided through which we can draw near to God.

The Mosaic law is weak and useless only when compared to Christ's better hope & his principles.

Once again no contradictions, it is useful and has merit, it just doesn't fully apply to us anymore.

reply to post by zysin5


Oh Zy I just love you for the inner person you are, you know to avoid these types of threads my dear friend, people or many have simply not evolved to the level of intelligence and understanding it takes to openly discuss such matters in the true light of Spirit.

I admire you for the personal strength it must have taken to come forward with your honest remarks which you knew would fall on deaf hearts. "Pearls before swine".

Let this one go as you have far too many important works to do and this is just drama disguised as spiritual awareness.

*******************************

As far as this thread...

My personal opinion, I am very well balanced between the right and left hemispheres of my brain, I am also very content in my being. So as long as I do not have to tell you what I do in bed with another and plant some image in your head, then I expect for you to do the same for me as I am not a mental voyeur and REALLY do not care what, who or how you make love.

To even argue over anyone else's choices shows that you were stunted by age two. You who judge are in hell .Period.

Originally posted by andre18
reply to post by JPhish

 

Incorrect; the nature of the universe is cyclical, ergo a static truth is hard to come by. The interpretive and dynamic nature of the bible only adds testament to its’ aptness.

I'm not going to even try to decypher what that means - can you please explain more simply.

Everything is constantly changing, what may be true yesterday may not be so today. Like Undo illustrated, as our perception of the world changes the words of the bible bear new meaning in relevance to our current time.

reply to post by JPhish

 

You’re assuming that merely because there was a median there is an error. I’m sure G*d would have no difficulty playing "banana phone”.

Originally posted by andre18

If god is all powerful he could have just explained the visions in a more
coherent manner. God should have had the foresight to know he would not be understood completely and expalin the visions more simply.

Talk about logical arguments

Who says that G*d didn't explain these purported "visions" in a clear manner? You're assuming that because yourself and others don't understand the bible it is because G*d made a mistake. Maybe he did not want you to understand everything at this point in time so that you could experience the fulfillment of figuring things out on your own.

It is no fault of Rubiks' that you are unable to solve his cube. He designed it in such a way that the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

The Bible - God's word or man's?

This is a good question. So far all the replies seem to be the usual answer I would have given several years ago or maybe even agreed with. Some answers are no answer at all, just diverting attention to something else.

Just months ago I was finally able to be more honest with myself in answering this question. I think this is why you can't get answer from a believer. All I would ask is show proof that the Bible or any other holy book claiming to be God's word is truly from God.

The only answer I can come up with is................No.

Nobody can truly show that any holy book is from God. There is no clear cut evidence that shows this. At least I haven't seen nor heard of any evidence.

If the Bible was the word of God......why would one book = many different faiths? Especially if your very life or soul was in question. Why would God confuse languages then put his word in the human language that not only changes with time but also meanings change or disappear through translation. Besides look at how many people can't read... literacy in the world.

Why would God give us something SO important to our lives in such an in efficient manner? A test that only a small percentage of his creation could possibly understand and then KILL the rest .... Why? Because he Loves you!

Sorry, Off my soap box. 2008 was a very strange year for me and religion was a huge part of it. I want to share and can't figure out how to shut up.........

reply to post by undo


Ok then, give me some examples of versus where it really shows the difference between angels inspiring man and visions from god inspiring man, show me where it really makes any difference how man was told what to write.

Unless god dictated every word of the bible it's not god's complete word and so you shouldn't take any of the book as the complete truth if it's not's god's complete truth. I fail to see why you should defend a book written by man but inspired by god if it's not directly what god told them to write, otherwise you don't know if that's really what god said or what man said.

If it's only visions and inspiration, thats not enough to say it's the utter word of god becuase it litrally isn't the word of god, it's mans interpretation. How is mans interpretation good enough to be the complete word of god??? it makes no sense.

[edit on 4-2-2009 by andre18]

reply to post by andre18


I view it much like a scientist views a book of science, only it carries more meaning for me than a science book. Beyond that, I can only say that I believe it is the most accurate depiction of the ancient past available and the prophetical texts appear to be incredibly accurate.

Originally posted by miriam0566

how does the big bang negate god?

(I'll start at the beggining) Back hundreds of years ago before science was developing faster and faster, it was beleived that god was as real as you and me, that he wasn't supernatural, he lived in heaven in the clouds in the sky.

And that heaven was a real a place as earth. Greek mythology, Roman mythology, Egyptian etc, they all beleived their gods weren't supernatural - there was no understanding of the supernatural because they new what they believed to be real, they beleived their god's were really physically natural beings.

As science in the last few hundred years developed exponentionally, it became apparent through many sciences including astronomy that the books they had alwasys assumed to be fact were becoming falsehoods. The words of god become more abstract as science found the bible's truths were not truths anymore.

Because the bible became more abstract and less factual, the concept of god took on a new image where everything about the bible science disproves is now 'supernatural' meaning science can't say anything about god by the very definition of being supernatueral. Instead of accepting this new found science that dispoves the bible, it was simply taken back to an untouchable form where even though we know its not real - it's our faith in it that keeps it going.

When the big bang was discovered it was found that the universe didn't have a starting point which is what creationists believe(d), but that matter cannot be created or destroyed but can only change form, that would dictate that the universe is eternal.

Everything we know about this universe matter cannot be created or destroyed so as far as we know it's indestructible and we don't know where it began so in my mind it's like why give those attributes to god and say he produced it. Just say this matter in itself is indestructible and potentually eternal so there's no need for god.

If it's eternal it didn't need to come from anywhere, it's a thing that we can test and say well you know we don't know how to make it and we don't know how to destroy it - it just seems to exist and that's what matter does. So matter is fairly indestructible and as far as we know, we don't think it had a begginig. I mean there's no reason to posit that it began.

And i'm sure you're misunderstanding the theory. Basically the big bang traces back to the point where everything that exists, everything in our universe was compacted into one tiny singularity. Now i don't wan't to make the claim that the singularity was some real tangible thing but what we're talking about with the big bang is the expansion of everything from the singularity outwards and it proceeds out at a rate that is measurable and the force of the explosion can be measured in the cosmic background radiation. - i mean all of this stuff is scientifically confirmable.

Now you may wonder what started that expansion. Well nobody knows, we have posible theories but unfortunalty because of the nature of reality we cant get back beyong the planck time to the point of the event - we can't corss the event horizon. But there are some good theories and the bigger thing is, even if we never had a good theory, even if everything we found just failed and never gave us an answer - that doesn't mean that 'god did it' ever becomes viable. 'God did it' is a hypothesis on it's own that requires evidentiary support.

Originally posted by andre18
Unless god dictated every word of the bible it's not god's complete word and so you shouldn't take any of the book as the complete truth if it's not's god's complete truth.

a lawyer tells his secretary, ¨take a letter, tell goldman that we agree to settle for 25,000 if his client provides a list of names involved.¨

secretary writes

¨dear mr goldman,
our firm is willing to accept your offer for settlement for the amount of 25.000€ on the condition that a list of previous clients be provided by the date of 03/04/09. thank you for your cooperation.

signed, mat exetor.¨

the letter is not a direct dictation, in fact the letter is not technically written by the lawyer, however it contains the spirit of the message and the elements the lawyer required.

would the lawyer sign off on it if the secretary put 100.000€ instead of 25.000? not all at all.

the bible is inspired, meaning the important elements are there. it really is inconsequential how many bathhouses solomon had, the point is, he had alot.

but if more important elements are different, then do you think god will ¨sign off¨ on it?

apocryphal books are an interesting read but more often than not they contain elements that conflict with major elements in the bible. is it any surprise that they are not found in the bible.

people like to argue that the compilation of the bible was done by the church to suit their own needs, but thats not true because alot of the doctrines they teach arent even biblical. alot of the apocryphal books hold texts better suited for their doctrinal bias.

it also doesnt make sense because the church itself tried to stop and destroy the bible. they did this by hindering translations into common tongues, literally killing those who read the bible. the reason is simple. god word did not agree with what they were teaching, but they could destroy the bible no matter how hard they tried.

the bible has existed as long as it has because god wants everyone to read it. there is no other explanation.

Originally posted by andre18
When the big bang was discovered it was found that the universe didn't have a starting point which is what creationists believe(d), but that matter cannot be created or destroyed but can only change form, that would dictate that the universe is eternal.

Everything we know about this universe matter cannot be created or destroyed so as far as we know it's indestructible and we don't know where it began so in my mind it's like why give those attributes to god and say he produced it. Just say this matter in itself is indestructible and potentually eternal so there's no need for god.

you got your facts twisted up a little.

initially big bang was rejected exactly BECAUSE it implied creation. its competing theory was the ¨static¨ universe which goes along the lines with what your saying (that the universe and everything in it has always existed). einstein agreed with you, but eventually had to give up on static theory when more evidence became apparent.

the other thing is that you seem to lack fundamental understanding of what the big bang was. matter is not eternal. in fact matter didnt even make it´s entrance until long after the ¨big bang¨.

before the big bang there was no time or space, if there is no space, then there is no matter.

i have to say, im honestly surprised. i would suggest doing a little more research before heralding that you know the ¨truth¨

Originally posted by JPhish

Everything is constantly changing, what may be true yesterday may not be so today. Like Undo illustrated, as our perception of the world changes the words of the bible bear new meaning in relevance to our current time.

What has that have to do with the point i made?

"If god really wonted man to write a book on his behalf he wouldn't have any contradictions or mistakes in it. God would know to have man write it down perfectly dictated by him. And wouldn't let alterations happen if it's his book. - His final word on every matter."

You're assuming that because yourself and others don't understand the bible it is because G*d made a mistake. Maybe he did not want you to understand everything at this point in time so that you could experience the fulfillment of figuring things out on your own.

If that's the case why have the bibe in the first place?

It is no fault of Rubiks' that you are unable to solve his cube. He designed it in such a way that the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

?

reply to post by andre18


I completely agree with you Andre, the bible has been altered so much from it's original text just to justify different rulers beliefs. It is mans word nothing else, God or whatever you believe in lies in yourself, we are all masters of our own destiny.

Originally posted by andre18

Originally posted by JPhish

Everything is constantly changing, what may be true yesterday may not be so today. Like Undo illustrated, as our perception of the world changes the words of the bible bear new meaning in relevance to our current time.

What has that have to do with the point i made?

"If god really wonted man to write a book on his behalf he wouldn't have any contradictions or mistakes in it. God would know to have man write it down perfectly dictated by him. And wouldn't let alterations happen if it's his book. - His final word on every matter."

You said there were mistakes in the bible. My explanation to you, proposes that they are not errors, but merely truths that have yet to be realized.

Originally posted by andre18

Originally posted by JPhish
You're assuming that because yourself and others don't understand the bible it is because G*d made a mistake. Maybe he did not want you to understand everything at this point in time so that you could experience the fulfillment of figuring things out on your own.

If that's the case why have the bibe in the first place?

“There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.”

Originally posted by andre18

Originally posted by JPhish
It is no fault of Rubiks' that you are unable to solve his cube. He designed it in such a way that the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

?

If you’ve ever attempted to solve a Rubik cube you’d know that after you mix it up, it seems all but hopeless to correct. Every face you attempt to solve scrambles one or more of the other 6 faces. But once you employ your insight, you’re able to visualize the cubes’ dimensions and solve the puzzle. Instead of exclaiming the cube is impossible or that Rubik must have made a mistake when he made it; why not try bending your perception a little?

[edit on 2/5/2009 by JPhish]

the letter is not a direct dictation, in fact the letter is not technically written by the lawyer, however it contains the spirit of the message and the elements the lawyer required.

That's still nonsense. Unless we can look at the bible and find exactly what parts are mans word and what parts are god's words, we can't tell which part of the bible is god's message and which are mans alteration. - is any of that getting through to you? When man wrote the bible he wrote it in accordance of the culture he lived in

it is an abomination to eat shrimp
you shouldn’t plant two different seeds in the same hole
it is an abomination to eat a rabbit
You shouldn’t wear linen and wool together etc

Because we can't distinguish which parts where supposedly inspired by god and which where made up by the writers themselves (like the above examples) we can't find out which part of the bible is truly god's message and which are man's own words. That is the point i'm making with this thread - i don't think you're getting it.

[edit on 5-2-2009 by andre18]

The Tanakh is both... as it clearly says in Daniel 5. The beauty of the Tanakh is that it will depend on whose understanding you are seeking as to whether you see the Word spoken or just man's stories writtten.

Originally posted by andre18
Because we can't distinguish which parts where supposedly inspired by god and which where made up by the writers themselves (like the above examples) we can't find out which part of the bible is truly god's message and which are man's own words. That is the point i'm making with this thread - i don't think you're getting it.

no, your muddling things up.

if the bible says that after a man dies his thought cease... who gave that information? man or god?

man wouldnt know.

if the bible says a promised seed will come, man or god´s? how would man know

use common sense.

just look at the ¨contradictions¨. is it really important to know exactly how many bathhouses solomon had?

its really not that hard to figure this out.

initially big bang was rejected exactly BECAUSE it implied creation. its competing theory was the ¨static¨ universe which goes along the lines with what your saying (that the universe and everything in it has always existed).

In that case you didn't even read my post at all. the big bang does not imply creation in any sense - if you think so explain how? I never said the universe and everything in it has always existed, i said matter has always existed in one form or another. It can't be created or destroyed - so it's eternal. The universe is eternal.

the other thing is that you seem to lack fundamental understanding of what the big bang was. matter is not eternal. in fact matter didnt even make it´s entrance until long after the ¨big bang¨. before the big bang there was no time or space, if there is no space, then there is no matter.

I'm sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about. It has never been suggested in the scientific community that before the big bang there was no time or space or matter. This is post i made a while back:

Christians, they believe that in some point of time there was nothing, that you go back in time to a point where there’s absolutely no molecules no nothing and all of a sudden there’s a bang.

Now when Christians talk about going back to a time when there was nothing, well while we don’t know exactly how the universe started, the prevalent theories don’t say there wasn’t anything as a matter of fact the first law of thermodynamics is that matter or energy can’t be destroyed, they can only change form. So that would dictate that the universe has always existed in some form.

We can’t get passed the planck time, which is a very tiny unit of time between the actual moment/beginning of the expansion of the singularity. So we can’t trace any further then that so anything further back is speculation right now.

Now physicists will often say that time began with the big bang, now what they’re talking about for example what hawking says it is that because we can’t talk about anything prior to the point of expansion you might as well cut those things out of the theory. He’s not saying that time doesn’t exist, he’s saying there’s really no point talking about it prior to the formation of the current incarnation of the universe.

So it’s not like he’s saying time didn’t exist, he’s simply saying it’s unimportant until this universe forms and at that point there’s something we can measure. Prior to that we have nothing we can measure and so we can’t really talk about it so let’s just say for the sake of the theory that time starts with our universe.

So it’s not that he’s saying that it actually started with the universe, he’s simply saying that’s when it becomes relevant to us

i would suggest doing a little more research before heralding that you know the ¨truth¨

The exact same back to you.

[edit on 5-2-2009 by andre18]

If the Bible is really the word of God, why are there discussions like this thread? Since one book = many versions of the the Christian genre of religion there are obvious confusions. All versions are correct and they all can prove it with the scriptures (regardless if they really are right or not).

When you compare this with all the laws of nature that this same God created... What happened? One works no matter what, who or where you are, but the other.......oh, my!

What I would like to see is some of the points brought up proved with out the Bible. We have been conditioned to take this book as fact because it said it was of God. The faithful will never question that, why? Look up the definition of "faith" and really truthfully ponder what faith is really asking of you.

reply to post by Oolon


it's saying mind over matter. power of positive thinking. look at it this way:

the book is a historical account of the ancient past that is corroborated by many other non-biblical yet similarly ancient texts. the real problem here is that science has pitched out some 4000 years of written ancient history because the roman catholic clergy said things about it that were not true. like, there's no way to prove the creation of the planets/stars occured immediately before the creation of life. heck it doesn't even mention the creation of the angels in the opening of Genesis, who preceeded human beings by...well, who knows how many years. anyway, once they realized the RCC's interpretation of the bible and subsequent scientific applications (earth center of universe, etc) were incorrect, they pitched the entire thing out! and not long after, they pitched out all the other ancient texts as well, including the ancient greek texts, the hindu, chinese, roman and egyptian texts!

they ruled our ancestors delusional, drug users who only wrote in metaphor!

sigh. thousands of years of history, just whoosh, into the trash can.

Originally posted by andre18
In that case you didn't even read my post at all. the big bang does not imply creation in any sense - if you think so explain how?

because it implies that the universe had a beginning which agrees with the bible.

I never said the universe and everything in it has always existed, i said matter has always existed in one form or another. It can't be created or destroyed - so it's eternal. The universe is eternal.

so which is it? if the universe is eternal, then it always existed. but then you deny saying that the universe always existed. your not making sense

the other thing is that you seem to lack fundamental understanding of what the big bang was. matter is not eternal. in fact matter didnt even make it´s entrance until long after the ¨big bang¨.

lol.

According to most astrophysicists, all the matter found in the universe today -- including the matter in people, plants, animals, the earth, stars, and galaxies -- was created at the very first moment of time, thought to be about 13 billion years ago.

The universe began, scientists believe, with every speck of its energy jammed into a very tiny point. This extremely dense point exploded with unimaginable force, creating matter and propelling it outward to make the billions of galaxies of our vast universe. Astrophysicists dubbed this titanic explosion the Big Bang.

www.exploratorium.edu...

ha ha....