The bible – god’s word or mans? , page 1

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Topic started on 3-2-2009 @ 04:49 AM by andre18

Leviticus 20:13

“If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

Just a few verses before that Moses says that it is an abomination to eat shrimp and a few verses above and below it says you shouldn’t plant two different seeds in the same hole. It goes on etc, it is an abomination to eat a rabbit. You shouldn’t wear linen and wool together.

Basically if you’re going to defend this absurdity you’re going to say that I’m failing to read the bible within the context of its authors and of its original culture, that the bible is the word of god through the words of human beings, speaking in the idiom of their time - we don’t take it as literally so that it was dictated by god.

If that’s the case then why still believe in the bible in the first place if it’s not god’s word but mans? If man deliberately altered the bible during its creation for his own benefit then how does one decipher god’s true word from mans alterations? How do you know which is which? Why still keep believing the bible is the true undeniable word of god???

An example of an alteration relates the king of Ugarit, where his followers were the principle competition with the emerging religion of Moses. Scribes working on the New Testament chose to demonize Ba’al ZeBul, the “Lord on High”, by distorting his name to Beelzebub, the “Lord of the Flies”. So the Bible has been deliberately and deceptively altered for both religious and political reasons.

The rest of what became the New Testament was canonized in the 4th century in a series of committee decisions at a convention at Nicea. Four gospels were accepted and sixteen more were rejected, all by a show of hands, as if the facts of the matter could be evaluated or dismissed by popular vote.

Humans wrote the bible without any influence from god because there is no god. We pray and say ‘I’m willing god, I’ll do what yo want me to do’ but you see the problem is that then there’s a gap, there isn’t actually any god talking back to us, so humans fill that gap with what we feel is god’s judgement. That’s exactly how every single holy book has been written.

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 06:26 AM by miriam0566

reply to post by andre18

you know andre, you spend alot of time and energy trying to convert people to your way of thinking. like i understand you dont agree with the bible and you dont follow it, but what does it matter to you if others do?

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 07:00 AM by andre18

It matters plenty. When doctors treat patiants we hope and assume they know to the best of their knowledge, their abilities what they are doing. If a doctor treats a patient with voodoism, it is obvious that that doctor needs to learn real medical science in order to cure the patient.

You would never let a doctor treat you if he didn't have the skills and knowledge to treat you properly right? In the exact same way you wouldn't and shouldn't let someone run a country who believes in a talking snake. And because they don't know no better, they attempt to impose their personal beliefs into the government - we need to teach people the reality they live in is not some game bewteen the forces of good and evil.

I would like the entire world to be atheist or at least rethink your religouis views. Because when people believe something that's wrong long enough without being told they are wrong, they're assume becuase they've never been told otherwise that they are correct in their incorrect beliefs.

I don't wont someone running Australia or even America who actually believes in a talking snake. Because they believe it so much with all their heart - even though it's wrong, they feel it nesserary to impose their personal belief into government laws. eg one nation under god, god told me to invade iraq etc

The quicker people realize the bs lie they think is a reality, the sooner the world can be at piece. The reason i put time into these threads is to make people think about the lie they believe is the truth. If I can convince even one person in all the time i'm here on ATS i'll be happy.

[edit on 3-2-2009 by andre18]

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 07:08 AM by JPhish

reply to post by andre18

wait . . . so it's all about indoctrinating everyone with your view of reality so that you might feel more comfortable?!

sheeesh, i have nothing against you Andre, but that seems a bit egocentric.

takes an awful lot of brass to tell someone that their ideals and way of life are not only wrong, but detrimental to the world . . .

:-/

[edit on 2/3/2009 by JPhish]

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 07:17 AM by eyeless_al

i totally agree its a sham and any smart person can easily see what bs the bible is .
what a lazy god we have does nothing but leave us to rot and prey to a number of other gods that he knows are not true
what a wonderful god wow amazing
if i was god id do something to show i existed to the people so they would know what god to beleive in
id help my people live great lives and the thought of war wouldnt exist or greed or hate
anyways my 3 cents worth
(AIC "This god of mine relaxes world dies i still pay taxes")

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 07:22 AM by andre18

reply to post by JPhish

indoctrinate

"A person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned" by all means question the education you're taught, by all means. And yet you won't question your own faith......and there lies the problem.

I'm simpy saying i don't wont someone to impose their belief into the world when it's wrong - i don't care that you think you're right, you're not. Im sorry.

The topic i'm trying to discuss - that not a single one of you wont to, is proving that your entire belief system that you think is corret 100% is obviously not. And yet here you are argueing with me without even thinking that just maybe you're wrong.

[edit on 3-2-2009 by andre18]

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 07:24 AM by JPhish

reply to post by eyeless_al

hypothetically speaking, you'd give your people everything and anything they wanted? That would be boring to the point of insanity. There was actually a twilight zone episode where your world was depicted; Rod Serling* called it hell.

[edit on 2/3/2009 by JPhish]

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 07:32 AM by newday

reply to post by andre18

Here is the mistake in your thinking.

The bible was written for the unbeliever not the believer, just as the law was written for the lawless not the lawful......

----------------

Today's installment from WIG'N ( What Is God Network )

WIG'N #NO 18 Title: Touching God
/ae54w3

-----------------------

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 07:38 AM by JPhish

Originally posted by andre18
reply to post by JPhish

"A person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned" by all means question the education you're taught, by all means. And yet you won't question you own faith......and there lies the problem.

I question my beliefs all the time. So that’s a false assumption on your part.

I'm simpy saying i don't wont someone to impose their belief into the world when it's wrong - i don't care that you think you're right, you're not. Im sorry.

I’ve never pushed my beliefs on anyone on these forums or otherwise; my proof is that no one knows what my beliefs are! AshleyD might have an idea, but to the point; I don’t “think” I am right, I believe I MIGHT have stumbled upon a truth. But if I have done so, it was by chance and by no great endeavor of my own. If I am wrong, I have harmed no one.

The topic i'm trying to discuss - that not a single one of you wont to, is proving that your entire belief system that you think is corret 100% is obviously not.

Discuss what? I’ll discuss anything reasonable. Again, you don’t know what I believe, so I don’t understand how you could say that.

And yet here you are argueing with me without even thinking that just maybe you're wrong.

I never claimed you were wrong, nor did I claim I was right. I did however question your intentions and motives . . .

[edit on 2/3/2009 by JPhish]

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 07:58 AM by andre18

reply to post by JPhish

So then what do you believe - are you a christian?

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 08:02 AM by OmegaLogos

I'm in full agreement with you and fully support you OP position concerning the religious texts of the Abrahamic faiths !

To engage that support I supply this thread of mine Here! Which basically says the Torah junks the rest of the bible from Joshua onwards.

Personal Disclosure: I'm am currently collating information that proves that the Torah itself is self contradictory and also that it cannot be supported from various scientific positions and I will post them here asap instead of making a new thread.

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 08:03 AM by OmegaLogos

reply to post by JPhish

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: I don't think it would be boring at all as I am endlessly creative and the desire for such "Bruce Almighty" type of freedom in a reality where I am the only conscious thing that can be "hurt", is quite appealing!

Personal Disclosure: If that state is "Hell" and people are already damning me to it, then its all gonna be rosy and cozy for me!

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 08:04 AM by zysin5

Originally posted by miriam0566
reply to post by andre18

but what does it matter to you if others do?

I wont answer for him.. But I can answer for myself. Why would it matter to me?
Well for those who belive the Bible is the absolute word of God. They go out of their way to convert every person they talk to in this life.
They go well out of their way to punish and hurt anyone different than them.
Lets see I give you one name.. Fred Phelps....
Thats why we care..
And if you are such a good person.. I would think you would care too.
That Evil has taken root and taking over your faiths slowly. Just look at the fundamentalist christians. They hate alot for listening to Gods words.
Why is God so pissed off all the time? Why does God send people to Hell and make them suffer.. But he loves you right? Its bullocks.. Fear and Guilt. Lies and money!

Do you really fight VS evil.. Or do you just say you do so you can sleep at night?

[edit on 3-2-2009 by zysin5]

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 08:28 AM by andre18

We all have this idea that we should respect other people's religous beliefs. Your friend has the right to believe what ever they wants to about god, he has the right to believe what ever he wants to about what happens after death and you should respect these beliefs merely because they believe them.

Where else in our society do we play by these rules, when was the last time anyone was admonished to respect another persons beliefs about history or geography or engineering or medicine?

We do not respect people's beliefs, we evaluate their reasons. If my reasons are good enough you will helplessly believe what i believe. That is what it is to be a rational human being - reasons are contagious.

If i said the holocaust never happened you would be under no burden what so ever to respect my beliefs. And we don't respect the beliefs of people who think Elves is still alive or that Santa exists. These poeple do not and should not get invited to sit on our boards of directories. The don't become presidents of universities. I mean that is all well and good accept when you change the subject to god and then all bets are off, then the skies the limit you can be certain with zero evidance and respected for it.

It is taboo to push the conversation into criticism of your beliefs. All we need is a standard of intellectual honesty where people who pretend to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about recieve somekind of conversational pressure.

If we treated everyone who spoke about god on the floor of the senate as though they had just spoke about poseidon - i mean just imagine, imagine we have all these hurricanes and some senitor gets it into his head that we should really be praying to poseidon, this is after all his jurisdiction.

Cleary that would be the end of that persons political career and yet it's not like someone dicovered in the thrid century that the biblical god exists but poseidon doesn't. These claims have exaclty the same status.

[edit on 3-2-2009 by andre18]

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 08:51 AM by jon1

reply to post by andre18

I often think of ways to try to explain why myself as a christian, believe in the bible and Jesus.
I was a none believer like yourself for 47 yrs so i do know what i am talking about. I and billions of other people have masses of personal evidence to know that God is a reality.
You or none believers base your views on nothing, no experiences of any kind relating to there being a God. So you think that it's all hogwash.
Don't you ever think to yourself, how can i be so sure when i, as a none believer am in the minority, or in the 17% of the worlds population that don't believe in God in any way, shape or form.

Whether you like it or not God is a spiritual entity, he is not here to be seen or touched. He resides within us as the holy spirit once you ask him into your life.

I will try to explain what i mean now.
If two people are stood outside a door and hear no noises or ever see anyone come out of that door the chances are that you will say that the room is empty and the longer you stand there, the more that belief will be enforced. (this is where i see you at the moment.)
Now if one of these people knocks on the door and it is opened then that persons belief will be instantly changed. (thats me)
The thing is, you have to knock on the door to get an answer, or as everyone says, you have to ask Jesus into your life, only then will the door be opened for you and you can see into the room beyond.

This is the main reason you will never change a believers view on God because he has knocked and the door has been opened for them. You will never convince them otherwise.

Now, is the bible true or not?
I or no-one else knows the complete answer to that one as it was written 2000 yrs ago and we wern't there. BUT, I now know as a christian that God is real and the bible is the only earthly thing that relates to him and gives me all the answers to the questions i have. (well most of them anyway).
No matter what situation i am in, there is allways an answer in the bible that gives me encouragement and this is one way that i believe God communicates with me. So yes i believe the bible is from God. I may not understand some of it but it certainly speaks to me.

So the thing is Andre, Whilst you are still standing at the door with your hands in your pockets, you will allways be stubben and try to convince everyone that the room is empty, whilst the rest of us have something wonderfull that you can't comprehend.

I hope this gives you a little insight into us believers, and why we are as stubben as yourself.

Cheers
jon

[edit on 3-2-2009 by jon1]

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 09:02 AM by mastermind77

reply to post by miriam0566

People can follow what they want to, but isnt it better to gain perspective on something in full rather than just jumping in in blindness?

The bible is a fragment of truth and experience, and too many religious people base their faith in a blind feeling or emotion they call, faith. On top of that, our modern legal structures in the world are based in religion, which is why the chinese communists go after it so often I think, not that i even remotely agree with that, i dont. I want all religion to be able to assemble peacefully but never act exclusively in the world, as islam does by thinking its better, same with judaism, they sometimes think they are better, its obsurd to think that for one, since were all stupid humans desperately looking to solve this mess. Some think God will solve it for them through wars, I think God will let them kill themselves, then tell them what they did wrong before sending them all to hell. If there is one.

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 10:22 AM by Anonymous ATS

reply to post by eyeless_al

If I were god, I'd get rid of satan once and for all. Is that too much to ask?

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 11:03 AM by miriam0566

Originally posted by mastermind77
reply to post by miriam0566

People can follow what they want to, but isnt it better to gain perspective on something in full rather than just jumping in in blindness?

the thing is, andre assumes that the way he thinks is truth. which is fine, alot of people feel that way, in fact i would venture to say that most do.

however what he proposes is hypocritical.

he is going to bash and bash and bash the bible until someone sees what is obviously truth to him. except it doesnt really make a difference to him, not in any real terms. what is he scared that some christian in office is going to take away his abortion rights?

what he fails to realize, is that christians are scared of the same. they are scared that some atheistic senate will impede on religious freedoms.

he uses the same atheistic rational to justify countless time and energy beating the same dead horses which is that atheists are smart and christians are dumb because they believe in something he doesnt therefore they shouldnt be in positions of power.

i mean i entered into this thread thinking that there might be something to debate about. instead the argument surmounted to ¨bible says you can eat rabbits, how ridiculous is that!¨

if you are going to ask me to question my beliefs, at least give me a good question.

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 11:59 AM by zysin5

Originally posted by miriam0566
i mean i entered into this thread thinking that there might be something to debate about. instead the argument surmounted to ¨bible says you can eat rabbits, how ridiculous is that!¨

if you are going to ask me to question my beliefs, at least give me a good question.

He is talking about Leviticus! And the fact that its in the bible. Some people take the word of the bible litterally! Such as those who over and over again cherry pick at Leviticus.
They will claim how wrong it is for gays to be themselfs. Yet they never bring up the part about the rabit, and 2 different cloths.

I think its a valid question. I belive it is ridiculous to quote Leviticus, yet many preachers do just that.
And many claim the bible is the WORD of GOD.
Thats what this thread is all about.
The question was do you feel personally the bible is the word of God.
And if thats so.. Then why do preachers cherry pick Leviticus?

Its all the word of God or it is not.

Or are we going to cherry pick that too what was real and what was not.

I belive its all written by man..
However my own faith draws me to think for myself. I found God.. But in my own personal way..
I do not need the word of man to help me find God.

reply posted on 3-2-2009 @ 12:05 PM by badmedia

reply to post by zysin5

Oh great, another person who wants to push things to the extreme. Can't be any middle point, you either have to accept it all as the word of god, or reject it all.

Stuck in a world of duality and don't even realize it.

Has it ever occurred to you that it could be a combination? Has it occured to you that it could be stories used to give certain understandings which are useful even today?

I'm so sick of both extremes I could puke.