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WORLD: UN fabricates story of Israel shelling UNRWA school in Gaza (Confirmed)

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posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by deccal

Originally posted by dbates
reply to post by deccal
 

Now you're just veering off-topic into a general Israel vs. Hamas scenario when that's not the subject at all. If we take this approach then every single discussion boils down to the same discussion with everyone quoting talking points. I deliberately picked the U.N. as the bad guy in this discussion because that was the focus of the disinformation that was being spread. They seemed to be the one propagating it. This isn't about actions or reactions. It's about disinformation.

If you really want to know the purpose or intent of this thread read this post by golemina. He seemed to grasp the idea very well.



You are right that my points were going slightly to off-topic. But what I really can not understand this: Do you really claim that UN has a hidden agenda on this?


The UN isn't a monolithic entity with one intent/agenda. There are a lot of agendas within, seeing as how its membership includes 192 different states. There are members of Hamas working in the UN sites in Gaza. I wonder what their agenda is.




posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 11:55 AM
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Sorry had a busy day and have not kept up with all of the posts

having looked at the pictures of the school and its wall and the accounts its pretty clear that the compound was not hit and that the wall would have protected those inside from the mortar rounds by and large. Any dead could have very well been dragged inside in the ensuing chaos.

BUT

The IDF still needs to explain why IT lied about fire comming from the school.

Why it dropped rounds on what was clearly a mass of civilians. 9My belief is that they simply don't give a crap and one dead Hamas terrorist is worth 40 dead palestinians)



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by deccal



Why are always all terrorists Arabs or Muslims these days?


Why don't you tell me, and then we'll both know.



By the way Hamas is not a terrorist organisation.


Well I'm sure they don't consider themselves terrorists, though I suspect very few terrorists consider themselves terrorists. They're all freedom fighters in their own eyes(of course they're not really interested in freedom).

www.globalsecurity.org...


History

HAMAS (in Arabic, an acronym for "Harakat Al-Muqawama Al-Islamia" -- Islamic Resistance Movement -- and a word meaning courage and bravery) is a radical Islamic fundamentalist organization which became active in the early stages of the intifada, operating primarily in the Gaza District but also in Judea and Samaria. HAMAS is the strongest opposition group to the peace process, to the PLO, and remains a powerful player in Middle East politics.

HAMAS was formed in late 1987 as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Hamas is a Sunni Islamic organization which was established at the beginning of the first Intifada, (December 1987) by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin. Hamas is dedicated to the establishment of an Islamic Palestinian State that encompasses Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. The Hamas believes in the establishment of an Islamic theocracy over all the territory of the land of Israel, "from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River".



The Hamas has conducted social activity in mosques that mainly serve the Palestinian immigrant population. These Palestinians are potential recruits for the organization (particularly Palestinian students) who are expected to return later on to the territories. As the terrorist attack at Mike's Place in Tel Aviv shows, the mosques can be used to recruit Muslim operatives (not just Palestinians) to carry out terrorist attacks in Israel.

The Hamas is assisted by other terrorist organizations overseas (with an emphasis on Al Qaida and the Hizbullah), with the aim of advancing strategic objectives. The ties between these parties are based upon personal contacts and their identification with Islam, and, particularly, the principle of Jihad. The links between these groups are also expressed through mutual operational assistance, thereby advancing the strategic goals of the Hamas organization.

In 2004 Peter Hansen, Commissioner General of UNRWA, admitted, "I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don’t see that as a crime." UNRWA has long been accused of looking the other way or accepting no responsibility when charges arise that Palestinian terrorists operate in its refugee camps. Not only have many of the suicide bombers of Hamas and other Palestinian terror organizations come from UNRWA refugee camps, but students in UNRWA schools have received a steady diet of hatred and anti-Semitism in their textbooks.


www.fas.org...


Formed in late 1987 as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Various HAMAS elements have used both political and violent means, including terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel. Loosely structured, with some elements working clandestinely and others working openly through mosques and social service institutions to recruit members, raise money, organize activities, and distribute propaganda.



HAMAS activists, especially those in the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks—including large-scale suicide bombings—against Israeli civilian and military targets. In the early 1990s, they also targeted suspected Palestinian collaborators and Fatah rivals.


www.cfr.org...


What is Hamas?
Hamas is the largest and most influential Palestinian militant movement. In January 2006, the group won the Palestinian Authority's (PA) general legislative elections, defeating Fatah, the party of the PA's president, Mahmoud Abbas, and setting the stage for a power struggle. Since attaining power, Hamas has continued its refusal to recognize the state of Israel, leading to crippling economic sanctions.



The group has also operated a terrorist wing, carrying out suicide bombings and attacks using mortars and short-range rockets. Hamas has launched attacks both in the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and inside the pre-1967 boundaries of Israel.



What does Hamas believe and what are its goals?
Hamas combines Palestinian nationalism with Islamic fundamentalism. Its founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel, the replacement of the PA with an Islamist state on the West Bank and Gaza, and to raising "the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.


www.mideastweb.org...


Hamas Principles
The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."



Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).



Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood
Some observers deny the relation between the Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. However, the Charter states:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.

Moreover, the Charter quotes Hassan Al-Banna, a Nazi sympathizer who founded the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. There is no doubt that the Hamas views itself as a part of the Muslim Brotherhood and an ideological heir of al Banna. The Muslim Brotherhood spawned a number of radical Islamist movements including Al-Qaeda.











news.bbc.co.uk...

He also accused Hamas of having "taken risks with the blood of Palestinians, with their fate, and dreams and aspirations for an independent Palestinian state".





Many people posted this quote and this quote shows nothing.....
So you mean, not Israel but Hamas was responsible from the deaths of civilans...


That quote shows that not all Palestinians support Hamas or its agenda. It also shows that the head of the Palestinian leadership holds Hamas responsible for the Palestinians that have been killed.

[edit on 4-2-2009 by BlueRaja]

[edit on 4-2-2009 by BlueRaja]



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by deccal
From the beginning I am trying to say: people like you and dbates are not honest with themselves.
Being about honest read my previous posts.
Shortly: Your motivation is to show that Israel was right and Palestinians has deserved.
Your deeper motivation is motivated by colonial idea that Arabs, Muslims, Turks etc..are all same primitive creatures and they deserve what they get. The world would be much better without them.


It is extremely dangerous to ascribe motives to people that you don't know, especially when you have asked them a direct question and they have answered.

Unless you have some psychic abilities that we don't know about, your deciding what their motivation is in contradiction to their explicit statements says much more about you and your biases and prejudices than theirs.

Eric



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 03:03 PM
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the u.n. is corrupt. tha "gazans" are pawns the arabs use to stir up animosity with the west and especially israel. as for the "innocent civilians" killed, just what exactly does a hamas uniform look like?



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by Blaine91555
I don't think it is any great mystery that some want the stories, no matter how exaggerated or inaccurate to be true due to their own agenda.


Agreed; the Israeli' government is as innocent of wrongdoing as the American and British governments and we should just believe that this is 'bringing democracy to the world'.


Hatred makes usually normal people willing participants in lies and distortions and seems to plague the news whenever the Jews or Palestinians are involved.


Only the leaders of the western world, where the lions share of the firepower and economic power resides, are quite compliant to the interest of the Zionist entity that the state of Israel has always represented. Why otherwise intelligent people such as yourself believe that you need to defend Israeli 'interest 'when they can manage to kill 1300 Palestinians ( representing about 250 000 people if the population where the size of the US) for the loss of only three civilians ( and ten literally card carrying soldiers, unlike the claims made of of hundreds of dead 'terrorist') is mostly beyond my ability to comprehend. Talk about aiding and abbeting genocide......

Why exactly do you think the Zionist need your help? Who , in the modern era, have been losing the cultural, political and economic struggle in the middle east and large tracts of the rest of the world? Why do you think the leaders of the west needs your help? Do you think your interest are at all at stake and if so in which way do you believe these murderous actions against overwhelmingly innocent people benefiting you? Why are Americans so desperately afraid of terrorist while many smaller more vulnerable nations don't seem to be at all worried?

Why don't the terrorist, who love 'freedom' first attack the countries where Unions and personal freedoms are best defended? Why do they 'pick on' the heavily armed US where citizens gets tear gassed, beaten and jailed for holding protests? Aren't they used to that sort of their things in their own non-democratic countries thus realising that they should be attacking 'free' in Norway, Germany or say Iceland? Did they settle on trying to attack the US ( and rarely succeeding beside with 'grand' attacks like 9-11; where's the political assasinations etc) because they can't stand the cold of Northern Europe? What?

If only these believers in 'mindless' 'terrorism' or democracy 'hating' terrorism could explain how the supposed twisted maniacle thinking works we may all be convinced to help try to cluster bomb them and their children to pieces. I mean i wouldn't want to share a planet with such crazy people and if i met any that were not just hopelessly ignorant or propaganized in boringly obvious ways ( as i consistently find them to be) i might get scared&worried too!


I would think the News coming out of Israel is suspect also but likely not to the point of what we get from a Terrorist group like Hamas.


I have never heard of even one so called 'terrorist group' that did not have a political or economic agenda. When it comes to Hamas they have always been a self defense force against naked Israeli/Zionist imperialism in the middle East. The fact that they are managing to win elections may in your eyes somehow prove that the majority of Palestinian voters are terrorist but in my eyes it just proves that they are a national liberation movement like all the rest that either resists violently or fails to control all the oppressed people of their region. Maybe it would help if Israel stopped blowing up the police stations and Hamas security people that have kept attacks against Israel fatalities to rocket and other attacks to a bare minimum. How killing the people that could effectively police rocket attacks and blowing up those that might turn in such people helps Israeli security is entirely beyond me.


As for terrorism why wouldn't they attempt it when Zionist terrorism got the Zionist Israel in the first place? What do you suggest they do while they are being herded into ever smaller and smaller killing ground that is Gaza? Why was it OK for the Jews in Europe to stage uprisings in their Nazi created ghetto's but 'terrorism' for anyone else who doesn't like being starved/worked to death slowly?


The Civilians, the victims of both sides lunacy, only know what they are allowed to know.


Israeli casualties have consistently been negligible as compared to the death and devastation Israeli weapons of war and ecomic sanctions have caused. Palestinians are dying on a daily basis for lack of medical and other care and the 1300 is but a insignificant number as compared to their losses due to years of Israeli economic terrorism.


Both sides seem so far gone in their frenzy of hatred that it is hard to imagine them ever having the sense to compromise as they should.


Neither side is in a 'frenzy' of hatred but clearly the Zionist operators of the Israeli state ( not the citizens as polls consistently demonstrate) are trying to do the same thing they have been working on since the inception of that state. Settlements continue to grow, Palestinian population numbers continues to decline while their economic dependence grows by leaps and bounds.

There is only one side in this conflict with the power ( F-16's, hundred of tanks, nuclear weapons) to resolve the violence and that side happens to be the one who has all the guns and a policy of virtual , and sometimes not at all, extermination of the former owners of Palestine.


If people here can not remain civil about it even thought they are not even involved, how will the real participants ever come to a peaceful agreement?


It's hard to remain civil with those who consistently chooses the oppressors over the oppressed and watching their mental gyrations in trying to come up with reasons as to why men, women and children deserve to get blown to bits by 500 pound bombs for living in the same geographical region as less easily pacified Palestinians who's rockets kills a Israeli every second month. As for suicide bombings that just about the point where fair minded people realises that their 'enemy' is so desperate and outmatched that they have nothing to lose. If you can not reach a political settlement with people driven to suicide bombing your not trying; a fact borne out by a cursory inspection of these so called Israeli/American national security state 'peace' initiatives that would make even Stalin and Hitler cringe.

Then again Stalin and Hitler never had the comparative power over their neighbours so they actually had to negotiate in some semblance of good faith while Zionist can demand what they want and continue the terrorism against civilians of the other side refuses to accept their genocidal ( in terms of national entities for sure) 'peace' initiatives.


Lots of history shows they probably can not.


Not while the leadership of the Israeli state can get away with these examples of state terrorism every few months or years. As is obvious they do not have to come to a settlement with their 'native' populations as they have no means to defend themselves that does not involve vastly disproportionate casualties that are more often than not suicidal with or without strapping bombs to themselves.


It was nice reading an unbiased post. Thanks so much.


Sadly i become totally distracted by all the one's that are so terrifyingly biased in favor of Israeli state terrorism. If these advocates are merely projecting that's bad enough ( they consider themselves able to kill others for the sake of religion or for no reason at all; why else would they believe such people exists?) but it seems it's worse than that and that they merely just believe such things are happening based on the say so of the side that is managing a 'exchange' ration of 100 to 1; talk about the frontier/wild west puritan mindset.

I suppose it may very well take a religious fundamentalist Christian to spot a religious fundamentalist Muslim. If we could arrange that these people meet where they can't hurt the vast majority of the rest of humanity things might improve but since neither groups believes in fundamentalism on their side this might be problematic even if theoretically possible.


Stellar

[edit on 4-2-2009 by StellarX]



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
as for the "innocent civilians" killed, just what exactly does a hamas uniform look like?


Now this is what dangerous is..
First label a group as terrorist. Then kill everything just because you can not distinguish civilian and terrorist..
Welcome to the massacre..
Just dont bother, and kill them all.
Sorry, gotta go to toilet to throw up



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by dbates
 


The question still remains, does this story destroy the credibility of Israel or the UN?

Israel did clearly state that they were responding to gun men in the school.



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by Ownification
reply to post by dbates
 


The question still remains, does this story destroy the credibility of Israel or the UN?

Israel did clearly state that they were responding to gun men in the school.


Why is it an 'either or'?

It seems that both are engaging in propaganda.

Eric



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 04:31 AM
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Originally posted by EricD

Originally posted by Ownification
reply to post by dbates
 


The question still remains, does this story destroy the credibility of Israel or the UN?

Israel did clearly state that they were responding to gun men in the school.


Why is it an 'either or'?

It seems that both are engaging in propaganda.

Eric

Well because Israel made the claim that they responded against gunmen within the school, that reassured the UN that they were correct in their proclamation of Israel shelling the school.


He said Israel had the names of two of the Hamas militants killed, Imad Abu Askar and Hassan Abu Askar, and said that according to Israeli information they were members of a Hamas' rocket and mortar launching squad, dpa reported.


The UN didn't say it was absolute that Israel fired at the school hence:

UNWRA called for an independent investigation.



UNWRA said three Israeli shells landed right next to the school building on Thursday afternoon, killing at least 46 people, according to Gaza emergency services chief Mo'aweya Hassanein. The school and the yard were filled with Palestinians taking shelter in it.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 05:24 AM
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reply to post by BlueRaja
 


Excellent post, I notice that the clear proof that the quotes you provide prove those who claim that Hamas terrorism is acceptable haven't been responded to. This statement in the Hamas charter puts it all into perspective.


"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).


Notice those who stand up for Israels right to defend itself against Hamas, speak of the terrorist organization that must be neutralized. Those who support terrorist activities look at all who sympathize with Israel as bad guys, and claim that terrorist who have a right to attack this huge swath of people.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 05:40 AM
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reply to post by StellarX
 



Why don't the terrorist, who love 'freedom' first attack the countries where Unions and personal freedoms are best defended?


I'm not sure what you mean by first, it seems Islamic terrorism has been gone on a long time, who could say who was attacked first, BUT, Islamic extremist have been attacking most if not all of the nations where Unions and personal freedoms are best defended, Holland comes to mind, as well as Denmark, and of course France.



Why do they 'pick on' the heavily armed US where citizens gets tear gassed, beaten and jailed for holding protests?


From my understanding these activities take place pretty much all over the world. All UN forces find themselves being attacked by these extremist organizations. The U.S. just happens to be the biggest target by the sheer size of its international presence.


Aren't they used to that sort of their things in their own non-democratic countries thus realising that they should be attacking 'free' in Norway, Germany or say Iceland?


Actually, Germany and Norway have had numerous problems, and attacks staged on their territories. This is not an isolated situation, only being waged against the U.S. and Israel. From my understanding, the world outside of Islam does not support this terrorism. Even the rivals of the U.S. have considerable prolbems with Muslim extremism, China, Russia. I doubt India thinks what the Israelis are doing is wrong.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 09:32 AM
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The children still died, there were no rockets fired from anywhere near the school and the place is not a big open space it is a sardine tin.

Good grief, Ging said on day one that three tank shells had landed near the school, we all saw that it was outside the school. Trouble is the tank shells used spray shrapnel over a 300 yard area so people got mowed down by shrapnel.

You really take the biscuit trying to claim the UN are lying when dozens of other schools were bombed and some with white phosphorous.

Dead in the school or dead outside the school, they were in the UN compound.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by Ownification
Israel did clearly state that they were responding to gun men in the school.

Just because the attack took place outside of the school does not mean that there were no gunmen in the school. Gunmen launch an attack from in the school, and the Israelis waited till they ran out into the street before the counter-attack.

One fact does not make the other an impossibility.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
I'm not sure what you mean by first, it seems Islamic terrorism has been gone on a long time, who could say who was attacked first,


In the middle east the Palestinians are commonly admitted to be the last to have turned to the type of terrorism that were so common of the attacks against British power by the Zionist cause.


BUT, Islamic extremist have been attacking most if not all of the nations where Unions and personal freedoms are best defended, Holland comes to mind, as well as Denmark, and of course France.


What did they do in Holland beside killing a racist who thought it was perfectly safe to mock religion anywhere in the world? Not even sure what happened in Denmark but i am not aware of suicide bombings, political assassinations or most anything you would associate with serious attacks against the states in power. As for the riots in France why both to connect it with religion when it's about economics?



From my understanding these activities take place pretty much all over the world. All UN forces find themselves being attacked by these extremist organizations.


Oh national liberation movements are fighting their oppressors all over the world and it has absolutely nothing to do with the religions and everything to do with economic self determination. As for these 'extremist' organizations they have consistently formed AFTER the people they seem to hate occupied or attacked their countries. So much for a perception of cause and effect.


The U.S. just happens to be the biggest target by the sheer size of its international presence.


Like the Romans and Greeks, huh? Why do the US have this international presence when the Japanese and a good number of other countries are managing far better living standards as well as security without having such 'international presence'? What has this 'international presence' ever got the American people?


Actually, Germany and Norway have had numerous problems, and attacks staged on their territories.


By WHO? How can you just make up these alternative realities and sell them as fact?


This is not an isolated situation, only being waged against the U.S. and Israel.


No it isn't as all imperial nations in history have been subjected to various forms and levels of resistance to their occupations. In the region we are talking about the war is waged on the Palestinians but it's sometimes hard to tell the realise who the true victims are by the hopelessly biased MSM.


From my understanding, the world outside of Islam does not support this terrorism.


Well i have and always will support the right of citizens everywhere to defend themselves as best they can from imperial powers. Not even all of Islam supports violent resistance just like not all of Christianity and Judaism supports the American state terrorism on Iraq and Afghanistan and Zionist aggression against Palestinians and whoever else intervenes in their imperial affairs.


Even the rivals of the U.S. have considerable prolbems with Muslim extremism, China, Russia.


And they would as modern Muslim extremism were created and funded by the CIA ( with Pakistan as training camp) to destabilize Afghanistan and thus draw the USSR into a conflict in a bordering nation it could not ignore.


I doubt India thinks what the Israelis are doing is wrong.


Oh the majority of the world's citizens , including Indians with their non violent traditions, condemns Israeli aggression against the Palestinian people who are now so utterly dependent on Israel for survival.

Stellar



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by Ownification
Israel did clearly state that they were responding to gun men in the school.

Just because the attack took place outside of the school does not mean that there were no gunmen in the school. Gunmen launch an attack from in the school, and the Israelis waited till they ran out into the street before the counter-attack.

One fact does not make the other an impossibility.

The eye witness clearly stated there was no gunmen within the school. Read the whole story again, type it in Google.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 07:28 PM
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reply to post by StellarX
 





By WHO? How can you just make up these alternative realities and sell them as fact?

That's what I asked him when discussing the same issue in another thread, it's wierd.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by Anonymous ATS
 

Anonymous, you'll note that your question will be ignored.

"What does a Hamas uniform look like?"

Well, there it is.

I guarantee you, many of these so-called civilians, who happen to be dressed in civilian clothes, aren't civilians.

Israel likely killed one hell of a lot more Hamas than they did "civilians."



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by StellarX



What did they do in Holland beside killing a racist who thought it was perfectly safe to mock religion anywhere in the world? Not even sure what happened in Denmark but i am not aware of suicide bombings, political assassinations or most anything you would associate with serious attacks against the states in power. As for the riots in France why both to connect it with religion when it's about economics?


So you're defending the murder of someone more making a movie about domestic abuse of women, condoned within the Muslim culture?

www.slate.com...


The wave of attacks and counterattacks began with the gruesome slaying of filmmaker Theo van Gogh as he rode his bicycle through Amsterdam on Nov. 2. Van Gogh was shot several times, stabbed, and his throat slit. A note was pinned to his body with a knife, threatening other public figures with death in the name of Islam. The director—the great-grandnephew of Dutch artist Vincent van Gogh—had made a controversial 11-minute film (in English, viewable here) in which a veiled Muslim woman, her body inscribed with Quranic verses beneath a semitransparent full-body veil, addresses Allah with a mixture of anger, devotion, and defiance while telling painful stories of domestic abuse condoned within Muslim culture.




Or death threats against the Cartoonist that drew pictures of Muhammed?

Why is it that when any other world religion is mocked, spoofed, parodied, scrutinized, no one ends up getting murdered?



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by BlueRaja
Those killed/wounded in the WTC, Iraq, Oklahoma City, are accounted for and can be verified. In Gaza, when you have organizations that have agendas that can be served by exaggerating #s, and there have been clear examples of this happening, I'm inclined to scrutinize the source more closely.


You are always inclined to disbelieve anything that is remotely indicative of a less than humanitarian intent on the part of the US or Israel.
Maybe if you scrutinized the actions of both sides you wouldn't come across as so comically biased?


Where have the media gotten their info? Independant verification, or from Palestinian sources(which likely have Hamas members)?


Likely? By who's estimation? Would you rather take Israel's word for it? Any chance you can ask them to stop bombing the infrastructure or agencies that will allow for better accounting of these atrocities?


The UN organizations in Gaza are filled with Palestinians/Hamas, so anything statements coming from them are definitely suspect, with regards to anything approaching objectivity.


And the UN organization in other areas are oft filled with locals form the region with a possibly similar bias. Why is it that your so suspicious of the UN accounting methods with relation to the Palestinian death toll but automatically presume that the Israeli's are not burying their soldiers or civilians in mass graves to hide the truth? Why is it that your suspicions are so completely focused on 'them'?


The BBC which has been very slanted in favor of Palestinians, said that 2/3 of the casualties are Hamas(which means that the actual figure is most likely higher).


Where is the BBC slant in favor of Palestinians? How did you come up with that one? When has bombardment from the sky every yield this type of accuracy in built up areas?


It's much akin to the sources in Iraq claiming 600,000-2 million civilian deaths, when the figures that can actually be verified are under 100,000.


And according to the methodology employed ( for decades before in various conflict areas) the best estimate was 650 000 in June 2006 and about 1 000 000 at the start of 2008. Of those interviewed for the second 650 000 death certificates where produced 92% of the time with the other eight percent not supplying data that were not born out on the death certificates of the 92%. If there is flaw to be found with this study it would have to be with the choice of locations and with the households interviewed but according to John Zogby ( Zogby , very widely used for many issues including elections/exit polling ) the methodology is sound.

Fact is that the invasion of Iraq has devastated that country with the death toll ( from violence ) no less than ninety thousands, as released by the Iraqi press/interior ministry, and in the minds of people who know how to conduct scientific polls around a million. Why this is so hard to believe i do not know but i suspect some believe that this isn't the Vietnam era where the USAF after all managed to conduct a strategic bombing campaign ( which at least many tens of thousands , if not hundreds of thousands ) on Loas by dropping two million tons on that defenseless country without the knowledge of even the US senate.

Such days are clearly over, i mean the Iraqi's had WOMD and everything...

Bah.

Stellar



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