Nurse suspended for prayer offer

Okay, so what should the patient have done? If you talk to an individual, it is clear they are not going to change, should the patient lodge a formal complaint?

reply to post by VelmaLu


I already answered this question and if you're just going to keep asking the same one then this thread won't go anywhere. Yes if the nurse kept going on then a formal complaint is the only way. However she didn't keep going on at this patient according to the article but she had been complained about before by other patients and as there are rules against it then she needed to be disciplined. Do i have to keep repeating myself?

The English bureaucracy has gone stark raving mad...the whole country has gone to the dogs and I don't blame the huge numbers emigrating to Australia in an effort no doubt, not to catch the disease.

Scientific studies in relation to prayers for the sick have been shown to be statistically significant per outcomes for patients who have been prayed for, as opposed to those who haven't been. I was a neuro-intensive care nurse before the bureaucracy turned me off the job, however I did suggest to one family when they asked if they could do anything to help their son (who had been given zero chance of survival by doctors) that they could go to the chapel. The young man "promptly" (within hours) started to regain consciousness and to follow commands to squeeze hands and wriggle toes. He not only never required any rehabilitation, but also claimed to have had a full on near death experience meeting with a couple of women he had accidentally hit with his car and killed the previous year, who had told him that he was not to blame (they had been running in wet weather,at night, wearing black plastic garbage bags to keep dry) and that it was time for him to get on with his life. He also claimed to have met a great spirit who gave him the choice to return to the physical plane or to stay in spirit. He told the spirit that he would return, but only if he could do so without being left with any disabilities resulting from his trauma. Lucky guy he did return without any disabilities and married shortly thereafter, followed by the birth of a child later on.


Addit. The young man had been on life-support for about two weeks prior to this remarkable occurrence.

[edit on 9-2-2009 by Nineteen]

reply to post by ignorant_ape


People do not need to get a thicker skin, they need to forget about their particle state and realise that life is not about trying to escape physical death by competitive ego raising. No one's ego is going to escape annulment at the end of their lifespan. No amount of preening and stomping over other people will ever make this world a better place, but it does allow the masters of the world to manipulate us all into cells of imprisonment policed by ourselves. This is the path of the lemmings, not that of Sophia.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by VelmaLu

 

I already answered this question and if you're just going to keep asking the same one then this thread won't go anywhere. Yes if the nurse kept going on then a formal complaint is the only way. However she didn't keep going on at this patient according to the article but she had been complained about before by other patients and as there are rules against it then she needed to be disciplined. Do i have to keep repeating myself?

You said you felt the rules were unfair. I am asking you what would be a fair rule? I am not talking about her going on with one particular patient, I am speaking about it from the hospital's point of view.

What policy do you think would be fair for the hospital to institute?

I am not speaking about what DID occur, but what policies should be put into place to prevent it from happening in the future.

Originally posted by Nineteen
The English bureaucracy has gone stark raving mad...the whole country has gone to the dogs and I don't blame the huge numbers emigrating to Australia in an effort no doubt, not to catch the disease.

Scientific studies in relation to prayers for the sick have been shown to be statistically significant per outcomes for patients who have been prayed for, as opposed to those who haven't been. I was a neuro-intensive care nurse before the bureaucracy turned me off the job, however I did suggest to one family when they asked if they could do anything to help their son (who had been given zero chance of survival by doctors) that they could go to the chapel.

Addit. The young man had been on life-support for about two weeks prior to this remarkable occurrence.

[edit on 9-2-2009 by Nineteen]

Please provide links of the studies showing prayer FOR the sick to have statistically significant improvement.

As with so many things, the hype about prayer definitely outshines the reality. To date there has not been a single good study showing that prayer has any value for helping sick people. A couple studies appeared to show such an effect, if you believe the media accounts, but I'll get to that in a little bit.

www.straightdope.com... 9/have-studies-proven-that-prayer-can-help-heal-the-sick

I'm an atheist and I wouldn't get mad if the nurse asked to pray for me. I'd tell her I don't believe in god, but she can if she wants. It doesn't bother me if she prays for me. I'd actually think it a nice gesture and it would make the nurse feel good. She was nice enough to ask. But if she kept on and on about it and it began to be less of a prayer and more of a sermon type deal, or her trying to get me to convert, that would be different.

Okay, here's a scenario. Let's say you're in pain and the nurse is in the room to give you the pain meds, but first she wants to pray. And the prayer is ten minutes. Is that acceptable?

Or, what if the nurse has only a finite amount of time to give care to a patient and that prayer means the next patient won't get a bath or have their dressing changed. Is that acceptable?

What if, instead of praying, the nurse wants to read a passage from Mein Kampf, because she truly believes it will help?

Where do you draw the line?

What if a patient finds it intolerable but doesn't feel like they are in a position to complain because all their care, comfort -- heck, even their life, is dependent upon this nurse? Would you feel like you could speak out and not face retribution?

Originally posted by VelmaLu
1.Okay, here's a scenario. Let's say you're in pain and the nurse is in the room to give you the pain meds, but first she wants to pray. Is that acceptable?
2.Or, what if the nurse has only a finite amount of time to give care to a patient and that prayer means the next patient won't get a bath or have their dressing changed. Is that acceptable?
3.What if, instead of praying, the nurse wants to read a passage from Mein Kampf,
4.Where do you draw the line?

I numbered your questions to make this easy to reply to as to not overquote to much.. but I would like to address what you asked..

This is talking about IN home care.. and not being cared for in another place.. Talking IN home care.
1. Would not be acceptable IMO.
2 Would not be acceptable IMO.
3. Sertinly not acceptable! And you make a good point by saying that. IMO

4. You draw the line, when they feel they need to voice that expression, in someone elses home..
If you feel the need to pray.. Say it to yourself, and in your own mind while you do what you are there for..
As well as this not being the first time she was warned about this..
She seems to want to make this into a big deal..
When a prayer is not that big of a deal.. If one feels the need.. Please by all means do that.. But please no need to Voice it, and make it such a big deal!

I have been in this thread before.. But wanted to make it clear agin to those who might not have had time to read the whole thread..

I take no issue with a person who wants to show compassion and say a prayer..
Yet when you come into someones home, and impose your ways upon them.. When asked before not to do so.. You have crossed the line, IMO.

Its just as easy to give a prayer in silent, and when all is said and done.. YOu feel good, they feel good..
No problems!
Yet this nurse clearly feels its her place to voice her ways upon others.
This is a slippery slope.. As what if this nurse felt Satan, or Marduk is the way.. Is it okay for her to Give prayer in this manner?

Those who use fear and guilt can make those of us who might not feel the way she does guilty of ourselfs..
She makes us feel guilty that shes only trying to show compassion..
When that compassion is a sly way to get one in for her team!

I feel, that this nurse should not be able to keep her job, if she is not willing to do her job..
Maybe she would be better off in a different line of work..
Like prehaps being a nurse for a religious Hospital.. Or something along those lines.

When you go to peoples homes.. You just can not do this.. And voice your ways upon others.

Now if this happened in church or anywhere else other than this womans home I would take NO offense.. Or even try to say one thing or the other.

But the fact is.. She came to the womans home and did this..
Thats where I draw the line..
And the line must be drawn.. Or else you jump on that slippery slope.

So in ending.. In the home not acceptable..
Outside someones home.. Well to me that is acceptable if someone is going to pray or do whatever..
Not in someones private home that does not belive in said prayer..

[edit on 11-2-2009 by zysin5]

reply to post by VelmaLu


We were actually taught about the studies at university, and it seemed to be a well accepted belief within the public hospitals in which I worked, thus the value placed on visiting priests of different faiths having so much access to patients within the wards. Just look up prayer and healing studies on the internet, there seems to be plenty there to go on. I do not belong to any church, not do I ever wish to, although I do believe in what I would term a universal force of intelligence to which all consciousness connects and from whence we originally came - thus the sparks of god being consciousness itself. This omnipotent Force has the power to heal when doctors have given up.

Its not a case of whether prayer works or not in helping the sick get better. Its a case of someone in a position of trust and to some extent power, abusing their position of trust and power over someone who is in a vulnerable position, ie; sick and in their own home. This nurse in my opinion had crossed the boundaries.

I am surprised that 'Adult Protection' has not been involved in this case or PALS (Patient Advice Liason Service) for that matter.

This has been an interesting case with many in the UK Nursing sector divided over this issue. I feel that this has probably not gone away and will no doubt resurface at some point in the future. I would not be surprised to see some NMC/NHS/DoH rulings being issued about religion and care provison.

Originally posted by Nineteen
reply to post by VelmaLu

 

We were actually taught about the studies at university, and it seemed to be a well accepted belief within the public hospitals in which I worked, thus the value placed on visiting priests of different faiths having so much access to patients within the wards. Just look up prayer and healing studies on the internet, there seems to be plenty there to go on. I do not belong to any church, not do I ever wish to, although I do believe in what I would term a universal force of intelligence to which all consciousness connects and from whence we originally came - thus the sparks of god being consciousness itself. This omnipotent Force has the power to heal when doctors have given up.

It was generally "well accepted" that the world was flat until proven otherwise.

And I did look it up and I posted that there is no research that proves that praying for another has no positive benefit for another.

So please post links to these studies you believe exist that support your assertion.

reply to post by VelmaLu


You are persistent, but I will disappoint you as I'm not out to convince you one way or the other. I know what I have seen and experienced over a lifetime. Science is no holy grail either, although for some it is their religion and I accept this as their right to freedom of belief.

Onto your request, overviews may be found at www.healingtherapies.info... and www.medhunters.com...

Singular studies:- Archives of Internal Medicine Volume 159,No.19,October 25,1999 A Randomised,Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote,Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit and www.integrativemedalliance.org...

Scientific studies of this nature are a bit like those that try to prove whether some people have psi abilities or not. For instance I would surmise that some people are more effective than others when it comes to prayer, and also that emotional entanglement as with close friends or family members being prayed for would be more effective than prayers intended for complete strangers as in the studies.

As regards the sceptics who seem to get a strange kick out of debunking anything of interest and outside the norm of the perceptions of the average cave dweller, they play a role for those who would wish to prevent mankind from awakening to his abundant potential abilities, which in turn is a great threat to the status quo.

It is also relevant that in 1993 only three US medical schools had courses devoted to exploring the role of religious practice and prayer in health; currently nearly 80 medical schools have instituted such courses.

Just remember that you may well try prayer in the future when someone you care for cannot be helped by anyone but the Absolute, and you may then discover that by asking you will receive

Originally posted by Nineteen
reply to post by VelmaLu

 

You are persistent, but I will disappoint you as I'm not out to convince you one way or the other. I know what I have seen and experienced over a lifetime. Science is no holy grail either, although for some it is their religion and I accept this as their right to freedom of belief.

No sorry gotta stop you here. Please do not put science in with religion. Yes you can love science, yes you can even devote your life to science, but it isn't a religion. It's all based on testable theories which are constantly improved. Some of the more unprovable theories (big bang) have plenty of evidence to back them up but haven't been fully confirmed yet. Science states this blandly and clearly.

Religion requires belief without proof, science needs proof and evidence otherwise it isn't scientific theory, merely a hypothesis. Therefore it is not a religion.

As the other poster stated, there is no evidence for prayer being effective that has ever passed peer reviewed literature. At least not a study that doesn't have a human bias. To argue that point is kind of moot.

Originally posted by Nineteen
As regards the sceptics who seem to get a strange kick out of debunking anything of interest and outside the norm of the perceptions of the average cave dweller, they play a role for those who would wish to prevent mankind from awakening to his abundant potential abilities, which in turn is a great threat to the status quo.

Oh i see so if we don't agree we are cave dwellers? Without lots of studies on this to prove it we should believe it out of hand? In that case i state that humans have the ability to travel to the moon and back merely by willing it, literallly travel there, whole in body and quite safe. I don't need lots of studies to back it up, it's just true.

See that isn't science, one small study isn't science. A large scale study, done with patients who are believers and non believers would be needed. The nurses and doctors treating the patients would have to be carefully controlled to not offer any extra encouragement based upon their beliefs.

Without a large study we cannot acceot anything.

Originally posted by Nineteen
It is also relevant that in 1993 only three US medical schools had courses devoted to exploring the role of religious practice and prayer in health; currently nearly 80 medical schools have instituted such courses.

This is relevanat how? You are trying to say that it must work and that's why they have adopted it, is that your point? Maybe it actually just points to the society beinga very religious one, with active lobbies for religious groups pushing religion into everything they can.

Originally posted by Nineteen
Just remember that you may well try prayer in the future when someone you care for cannot be helped by anyone but the Absolute, and you may then discover that by asking you will receive

Well i never have so far, i don't know about the other poster. It won't do anything so why would i bother? I've had a person in my thoughts, hoped they would get better but i have never invoked a higher being.

[edit on 13-2-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

We seem to have strayed from the original reason I posted this.

My point is: no offence has been given, no offence taken, but because of the Orwellian thought police dogma, this old lady has complained just in case someone else gets offended.

This has to stop. People need to be big boys and girls and deal with their own issues, not crying to mummy to make everything better after they've piddled in their pants.

reply to post by The Last Man on Earth


I made that point earlier but was just asked what the rules should be then. Sadly if we are instigating rules, and we have to in hospitals, then there are only two possible outcomes. Either it's all ok, or none of it is. What i mean by that is either all religions and beliefs can be offered to patients or none can.

It's a sad situation but that's the situation we are in because political correctness has made people so sensitive we only have those two choices. People have made claims in this thread like "should you be able to offer an animal sacrifice" "a prayer to the devil" etc. My honest answer is no. I said before that people shouldn't be so easily offended, and i stand by that point. I also understand though that currently people are generally to weak and pathetic to brush themselves off and forget such comments.

Ladies and gentlemen, i'm sure many of us were bullied in school. At the very least i'm sure all of us have had the odd harsh word thrown at us or had our political or religious views laughed at by someone sometime. Are we to spend our entire lives being offended? Are we still those children in the playground who ran to teachers and cried in their arms? Are we still those kids who got into fights when someone called us a name?

I hope we aren't, but as time goes by and this PC nonsense gets further out of hand i can see we are a society waiting to be offended. We love to be offended and kick off about it, possibly sue, get a bit of attention. It sickens me.

However the rules are there, they are in place and therefore they have to be followed until changed. So yes the nurse should have been disciplined, especially as she is apparently unapologetic.

reply to post by Nineteen


The first two are not studies, they are articles which prove nothing. The third link does not work.

Surely you have some respected, scholarly source (since you believe the proof is so abundant), that you could show?

Originally posted by The Last Man on Earth
This has to stop. People need to be big boys and girls and deal with their own issues, not crying to mummy to make everything better after they've piddled in their pants.

Oh thats rich!!! We are talking about religion here.. I have never met an adult in my life who belives in such fairy tales and stuff..
Mentally this whole world acts like children! So you get what you have here. Yes adults act like this! It just goes to show you where we are all at mentally in this world, when considering religion.
Its like a playground fight over the tooth fairy!

Originally posted by zysin5
Its like a playground fight over the tooth fairy!

Don't you dare insult the tooth fairy!!!!!

Yeah it is a kids playground thing. I stated it many times in my posts here that people are pathetically sensitive, They really do need that cuddle from the friendly dinner lady to calm them down like they got in the playground.

Oh but wait dinner ladies aren't allowed to hug kids anymore, political correctness and fear of being sued are great huh.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Also, playgrounds can't have trees for children to climb on.
Liability.
At least at some US schools.