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Originally posted by noonebutme
I've not broken the law. I haven't killed, stolen, vandalised or sped in my car. What else can I say?
Originally posted by noonebutme
In this case with the girl, she may get out and think, "You know what, screw them for imprisoning me, I didn't do anything serious - it's not like I killed someone. I'll show them, now I'll be a serious "
Did i say that you will not be an individual. I said laws are not legislated to cater for just YOU, or I, or a girl that just wrote her name on the wall. For individuals. They are Laws. Laws for us all.
And that is EXACTLY what is inherently wrong with the entire system. If the system was designed to review each individual case and base punishment on that, we would not be finding an 18 year old first offender being sent to jail for writing her name on a wall.
This is absurd. The only reason you don't break the law is because you are afraid of being treated like dirt and thrown in a jail cell. See, it works. LOL.
Obey only because if we don't we get treated like dirt then thrown in a jail cell to rot - regardless whether the law is right or not.
You coward. Shame on you. Ever heard of the NSW Council of Civil Liberties. Just one group you can get involved with, aid or help. No one is stopping you but yourself. I'll U2U you, I've protested the state govt, twice last year, one wear we got a temporary law revoked during the Papal visit. What about apec, when the council won and now makes it mandatory for our police to wear ID when policing protests, after they arressted 20 people with no personal ID number or names. I haven't been stopped once. Or arrested. Or imprisoned, or treated like dirt.
Unwillingly, because we are given no other choice.
No, you were conditioned by a society that says you need to wear cloths. You want to protect them from your ugly skinny body because you view you dody as that as there is a generallly agreed standard of decency that is step in our cultural psyche, this is why we have indecency laws. And cultures like the Aboriginals didn't, until europeans arrived.
I wear clothes so I don't blind people with my ugly skinny body.
You drive on the correct side because it is the law. It was made a law when cars became more common, it seems like common sense to you because you have grown up within the system.
I drive on the correct side of the road because if I do not, I die.
I still owe 2001, and 2004. I was a sub-contractor, part time while i was racing. All my friend in that Industry are behind or don't pay. Some owe 3, 8, one guy 10 years in the buisness without paying any tax. One friend got done. He owed 40,000 dollars when all the numbers were done. He is working, free and paying off his debt. No jail, no draconia, no fear, no hysteria.
I pay taxes because I have no choice, if I do not I am put in jail. I'm not sure what you mean about the rest of the points, they do not seem to make sense in context.
Ok. So the only reason you don't rape, steal, murder, destroy property, assault people is because the laws forces you not to and because you will end up in jail. Ok. Cool.
Again, unwillingly because I am forced to or go to jail. Jail is another thing I did not ask to be made into law either.
They are for the people, by the people. Who do you think made these, it was the state parliment. Who did you vote for. If you were disatisfied, did you think about runnung as an independant, or did you support one. Oh, what was that, no. Have you voiced your concern to your local member, who represents you in state parliment and could have voted no against this law in the house, and annouce you displeasure at the laws.
And these laws should be for the people, by the people - and yet the only people who have a say in our laws are the one's with the fattest wallet.
Originally posted by atlasastro
Are you serious? Think about your statement. I mean, just think before you move your mouth.
You want a legal system that basis its entire system on catering for individuals. Individuals that commit crimes!
Originally posted by tezzajw
There's nothing else that you need to type. You've made it clear to everyone reading the thread that it's difficult to take your claims seriously.
If I got locked up for ANY period of time for something as pissy as drawing on a wall, then my revenge would be ten-fold. Yeah, I'm a petty man. I'm even pettier than the law at times.
Originally posted by watch_the_rocks
Chiming in a bit late here . . . but I am simply horrified at the number of people who support this punishment. I cannot comprehend how someone could think putting a bit of paint on a wall without permission deserves a punishment of 90 days in prison and a permanent criminal record.
Originally posted by Retseh
She was maliciously damaging
Australians spend millions every year repairing the damage done by these graffiti artistes, and this just sent them a message.
You may not care so much about enforcing civil order, but fortunately some of your fellow Australians do, and I know which group I would put my money on for making Austrlalia a better, safer place to live in.
Originally posted by atlasastro
...blah blah blah .... basis its entire system on catering for individuals. Individuals that commit crimes! You would need a system like the Medical System that deals with issues presented to it on an Individual basis, this is how it allocates resources and manpower. A client driven system, think about that. This is vastly different to the current laws system which has the legislated laws. People break them. On behalf of the citizens of the state, the state enforces these laws and prosecutes and imprisons those it proves have broken such laws. We as tax payers and citizens accept that our taxes will help cover these costs, as well as provide compensation to victims of crime. So , in your system you are actually asking for more state intervention in the role of the individual .... blah blah blah
Originally posted by Kryties
Defacing. Not damaging. And I seriously doubt she was 'maliciously defacing' a wall with a texta. Please refrain from making this out to be worse than it was.
No it won't. Don't you get it? These people will not stop. This is just another heavy-handed tactic to make the general public think they are doing something about it.
How is it that we don't care about enforcing civil order?
Originally posted by Retseh
Originally posted by Kryties
Defacing. Not damaging.
So if I spray paint your car, I'm not damaging it. Get real.
Originally posted by Retseh
So we should stop jailing murderers too, since it plainly doesn't stop murder? Jail deters me from doing some things I would secretly like to do, it will have the same effect on this girl I guarantee you.
Originally posted by tezzajw
Why do you think that jail is the only effective punishment for a crime? She could have been made to pay for her crime without being sentenced to jail.
[edit on 4-2-2009 by tezzajw]
We've offered common sense solutions in this thread that have been completely ignored in favour of the police-state solution.
I am pretty light actually dude, its just that perhaps I actually consider things a great deal more than most. And, it is complicated. My reply was to Kryties opinion that our legal system be based on the Individual. When you make a statement like that, without considering the complexity that public policy would have to overcome, it gets complicated. It would be remiss of me not to highlight ATS member Kryties ignorance in this matter. Given that the free society will be paying for it. The suggestion is one that involves all crime, so while it may be a nice and cosy solution to a girl that graffiti's, it isn't so cosy when we consider it from a systemic and all inclusive perspective.
Originally posted by RogerT
... seriously man, you need to lighten up.
It's really not that complicated
Yes, in this one case, where its only one girl and one offence. But the thing is. Its costing the state(my state, where i live) hundreds of millions of dollars, resources, and police time and effort. This is why the laws, the ones this girl has felt the full force of, have been legislated. If you read my first reply on this thread I clearly express the opinion that this was harsh. But unlike some, I'm not here to scream with impotent and ignorant outrage but explore the issue, why we have it, to understand it and not be beguiled into a false sense of impending doom at the hands of the state. Which some here would rather have members do.
Girl get's(gets) caught writing name on cafe wall with a marker.
Girl is asked to apologise, pay some form of penalty that satisfies the offended party (cafe owner), and is publically(publicly) embarassed(embarrassed) in the process of cleaning up her mess (I think the pink overalls are a great idea )
That's it, nice and simple (and cheap).
Man, how about first we set up a system that purely deals with looking after victims of crime, Why not assess them, set up facilities where they get all their needs catered for until they can return to a normal life in society! And then see what resources we have left over for the ones that commit crimes. The cold face of reality needs to see the light of day when we would otherwise prefer to dream of a Utopia.
Now, if you want to get a bit more 'complex' about a solution, I'm sure many well developed and compassionate souls could offer a plethora of creative ideas that would achieve the intended outcome without the need for a retarded prison system and at far less financial cost than the current ineffective practices.
Only because you obscure and trivialize your opposition in this debate, by write things like this.
Originally posted by Kryties
This thread is just going to keep going around in circles.
.
For: Yay, we punished an 18 year old first offender with 3 months in an adult prison! She deserves everything she gets even though the Cafe owner even said it was too harsh! This will solve ALL our problems! Lock every first time offender up for the most minor of crimes, feed the (almost privatised) prison system as much taxpayer money as we can, kick em out on the streets a few months later and wonder why they keep reoffending! Good times
Wow. Really, what ground breaking approaches. Look how well that has worked before, so your arguement is that you think these new untested laws will not work so therefor, go back to the old ones. We had a policy of three warnings before a convictions for minors and still do, and all of the above. Now its a newer, harsher sentence, I wonder why, because your solution has/will just stopp graffiti in its tracks? Well, no, it been tested and failed. Epic failure. Think Tank, lol. You think this is a new debate. Lol. Dude, look up the NSW Councils Association. Look at all the minutes. Look at the releases of all Metropolitan Council Meetings, You'll notice that they all developed community based strategies to deal with graffiti. Its been doing it for years, YEARS. With offenders, youth groups, NGO's and the State Govt. Think Tanks, man I almost wet myself when I read that, how do you think we ended up with these sentences Kryties. LOL. Kryties, how about you just start to Think Tank that you may have absolutely no Idea what you are talking about, other than the fact that this sentence upsets you. You have no Idea how we reached the need to legislate these newer tougher laws, other than the insipid excuses that its those "fat wallet peoples". Because, reading your posts, that is all you have Bro.
Against: This sentence was too harsh - particularly for a first time offender given the nature of the so-called 'crime'. In this instance, the offender should have been warned sternly that reoffending will incur a harsher penalty, fined $200 and be made to clean up the writing on the cafe wall. Further to this, to combat the more widespread problem of graffiti, convene a thinktank to nut out what is causing the problem, and underlying issues and how they can be resolved without unnecessarily jailing first time offenders for minor offenses.
Yeah, your on a spin cycle alright.
Rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat.