Wheres The Old Money? Something I do not get, Help me understand.

Hello again folks, I started this thread because I would like some imput from all of you pertaining to all of the money that has just disappeared before this recession.
Yes I have seen zietgiest, I seen the Glenn Beck charts of how we keep borrowing and borrowing into nothing....but maybe I am missing something? Maybe I answered my own question? I am not sure.

What I would like to know is, where is all of the money that we had in our system before the recession hit (2 years ago or so). Did it disappear? Or did it actually not exist in the first place? Was most of it exported to other countries? Basically my point is, where is all of the money? Someone had to of put some cash somewhere? Money just cant disappear? Did the top 2% put that money in their own accounts? Maybe I am tripping and like I said, maybe I already answered my own question. And if this is just a U.S problem why is the whole world crumbling along side us? Even China is getting hit hard, that we didnt really see comming. So where did all of that money go???? Who has their greasy hands on our $$? This thread might sound a bit confusing to most of you, even I am confused, but I think that the more we talk about this, the quicker the ATS folk might be able to pinpoint exactly what happened to get us to this point, and where the hell all of our money went, and how we can get out of it all? I would like to ask my govt for answers, but I believe they are still a lil dumbfounded from it all. I know this sounds confusing, and I dont know how far speculation will go in this thread, so I am just trying to hear some good theoretical answers to help solve our countries problems, afterall, we cant always let our govt do all the work.
We as a people need to help out with this, because if we dont, our children, and our brothers and sisters will pay. Thanks for reading this and posting your comments.

maybe the war in iraq
fema camps
war on drugs
secret wars
underground gov't facilities

and the list goes on....

When you put your money into the stock market, someone gets it. But when the value of that stock goes up, it looks like you're getting richer. However, the actual cash that would back the increase in value in that company's stocks doesn't exist.

So when the stock market goes down, it "seems" like money is disappearing, but in fact it was money that didn't exist. The only way for you to see that profit is to sell while the stock is high, get your cash, and run. Everybody else who still has stock in that company "pays" for your profit by losing value in the stock they still hold.

So this is the cause of trillions of dollars of "lost wealth" when a stock market "crashes."


Another cause of depressions has to do with the creation of money. Banks create $9 for every $1 they actually have, and that's if they play by the rules. In reality, they do a lot more than that using leverage. Some banks lately have been real sneaky and attempted to claim that they can create money or leverage assets as far as 300 to 1. Now if you or I go to a restaurant and try to buy a meal that is $10 we can't do it with just $1, but this is what banks do. (Sound a bit like fraud? I agree.)

Since banks in the process of loaning money actually create 9 dollars based on 1 real dollar in deposit, the money supply expands based on how much the banks tend to be loaning. For the banks to loan, people and banks have to have confidence that they can pay those loans back. During boom times, the confidence is high and the banks are putting a lot of people into debt because everybody generally believes that they can manage that debt.

Remember: every bank loan creates new money.

That boom economy which lasts for a few years then loses its enthusiasm as people generally begin to realize that the debt level of society is getting too high. People begin to default on loans, and the banks catch wind that the growth of the economy is slowing. Once the banks get nervous, they start calling in loans of the money they created out of thin air to make sure that they still have that $1 for every $9 they've loaned out. As this happens, the economy goes into recession.

Remember also: every payment to a bank destroys money.

The same process that the banks used to create $9 based on $1 works in reverse. If the bank finds that they have less than $1 in reserve for the $9 it loaned out, it will start getting more strict on repayments, which will destroy money that is circulating in the economy which is exactly the opposite of what the economy needs during times of recession! As people grow more desperate to make ends meet, so do the banks, so they start calling in money. But to increase a banks reserves by just one dollar they have to destroy nine dollars of credit money that is in circulation. This contraction of the money supply has a domino effect that reverberates through the whole economy. People default on loans, business profit dwindles, and unemployment goes up. Until the banks catch up and start lending again.


This is what is known as the "business cycle." Notice that during times of recession that all the property people put up for collateral to get their loans runs risk of foreclosure. So all that funny money ("credit") that banks created out of thin air allowed them to get real property for nothing.


Thomas Jefferson:

"If the American people allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."




[edit on 2-2-2009 by username371]

Okay, thats a start. But shouldnt these warnings have come a long time before all of this happened? Shouldnt the market have seen this comming before it got out of hand the way it did ?

The warnings came from people like this:



Thomas Jefferson:
"The eyes of our citizens are not sufficiently open to the true cause of our distress. They ascribe them to everything but their true cause: the banking system… a system which so certain of leading to abuse as to be utterly incompatible with the public safety and prosperity."



Robert H. Hemphill, Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta:
"If all the bank loans were paid up, no one would have a bank deposit, and there would not be a dollar of currency or coin in circulation. This is a staggering thought. We are completely dependent on the commercial banks for our money. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money, we are prosperous; if not, we starve."



Lord Acton, Lord Chief Justice of England, 1875:
"The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is “The People vs. The Banks.”"



Andrew Jackson, 7th President of the United States:
"You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God, I will rout you out. If the American people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution before morning."



James Garfield, 20th President Of U.S.:
"Whoever controls the volume of money in our country is absolute master of all industry and commerce…when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate."



Robert B. Anderson, former U.S. Secretary of Treasury
"When a bank makes a loan, it simply adds to the borrower’s deposit account in the bank by the amount of the loan. The money is not taken from anyone else’s deposit; it was not previously paid in to the bank by anyone. It’s new money, created by the bank for the use of the borrower."



Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University:
"Thus, our national circulating medium is now at the mercy of loan transactions of banks, which lend – not money – but promises to supply money they do not possess."



John Maynard Keynes:
"By a continuing process of inflation, they can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, the wealth of citizens – and not one man in a million will detect the theft."



U.S. Congressman Jerry Voorhis:
"The commercial banks and the Federal Reserve create all the money of this nation, and its people pay interest on every dollar of that newly created money. Private banks exercise unconstitutionally, immorally, and ridiculously, the power to tax the people, for every newly created dollar dilutes to some extent the value of every other dollar already in circulation."



John Quincy Adams:
"All the perplexities, confusions, and distresses in America arise, not from defects in the Constitution or confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, as much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation."



Sir Josiah Stamp, President, Bank of England:
Banking was conceived in iniquity and born in sin. Bankers own the Earth. Take it away from them but leave them the power to create money, and, with the flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again. If you want to continue to be the slave of the bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let the bankers continue to create money and control credit.



Woodrow Wilson, Former US President:
“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."





[edit on 2-2-2009 by username371]

Okay, so we know that money is backed by crap, that much is understandable.
What I am not understanding is this, how did they get away with it in the first place? Is it just a flaw in our monitary system? Is this how banks stayed alive for this long?
And what does this say about what we are going to do about this problem?
As far as I know, They are just trying to pour "empty crap money" on top of the problem, but wont the cycle than just repeat itself?
How can we possibly get out of this mudstorm?

reply to post by Common Good



The system evolved over many decades. By trial and error, and clever planning, the people who understand how this system works knew that it would be a very profitable scam for them. So they essentially bribed their way into our government to allow such an institution to exist.


It started in this country with the First Bank of the United States. It was an economic disaster for everyone except the stockholders.

Soon after that came the Second Bank of the US. Andrew Jackson shut that one down, and made the following remarks:

"The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it."

After that the struggle went back and forth between those who wanted to establish a third bank and those who wanted to preserve the economic sovereignty and strength of the United States. The battle was lost in 1913, when the Federal Reserve was established. Although the name has the word "Federal" in it, it is not a federal institution any more than the private company called "Federal Express" is. Or Coca-Cola. Would you trust Coca-Cola to run the banking and credit machinery of the United States? Perhaps, if you could own stock in it. But the people of the United States aren't allowed to own stock in their own central bank. The real owners are a secret to the general public, but researchers have discovered who many of them are. Names like Rockefeller, Rothschild, etc come to mind.


For those of you who doubt this, let me ask you... If we did own stock in the Federal Reserve, then why are we paying interest on our own money? Shouldn't we be collecting it? Have you ever gotten a check from our government for interest collected on the debts the Fed created? Nope? Neither have I. The people who collect the debt and the people who owe the debt are not the same people, even though they tell us that the Fed is part of the US government which is "of, by, and for the people."


So since 1913 the Fed has existed, and since then we're hitting our 2nd major depression, have had dozens of recessions, and more and more families are having to struggle endlessly to try and retain their property and keep up payments on the untold $trillions of outstanding debt. If this is the measure of "prosperity" (as the Fed would call it), count me out.



The way out of this system is to create money as evidence of wealth, not evidence of debt. Outlaw fractional-reserve banking. Outlaw compound interest. Create a publicly-owned bank that spends money into circulation, or loans it interest-free. The good news is that these ideas have been done before, and were very successful... but the bankers won't tell you that! Just realize, we shouldn't have to pay interest on our own money, and bankers need to get real jobs.





[edit on 2-2-2009 by username371]

reply to post by username371


okay, you obviously know your banking system, more so than I do, and I have to say that I am following every word you say.
You seem to have all of this information right at hand, which is good to people like me who are looking for answers.
I know that we are knee deep in a pile of cow dung, but 371...
What can we do? Do you have any suggestionson what the people can do about this short of revolution? And if there isnt, how would you go about changing the 'unchangeable'? Afterall, people are not going to like the fact of getting rid of the dollar, lots of people hold American values on the dollar for some reason. So how can we change the situation we are in today ? Can we (in your eyes)?

reply to post by Common Good




We must make the gradual transition to an honest money system. US Congressman Ron Paul suggests that we create a new bank owned by the people that works in competition to the Fed, given the same power to create money but not run for profit. If the Fed has to compete with a new form of money, the people will eventually choose the money system that works best for them. Right now we don't have a choice, and that's by design.


Why do you think bankers like to have one large bank running the economic system of an entire country? Because it eliminates competition. This is called a monopoly. And monopolies, as you know, have no incentive to deliver a quality product to their customers, because they don't have to. This lack of competition makes a monopoly very profitable.


If we have a choice to use precious metals, or interest-free credit, or paper currency that we create for ourselves as a receipt for products and services, then that green stuff they've been renting to us suddenly won't look so good... The key is choice. The people reserve the right to choose what money system we use, not have it forced upon us by the corrupt and greedy.


For this to succeed, we must understand it first. So now that you know, tell everybody :-)

Yes, I am fully aware of the alternative, the gold standard. I was going to vote Ron Paul, but he never had a chance. I watched all of his interviews about the money situation is, an I full agree with him, and you as well.
What I fear though is this...that it wont happen.
I mean, we had this guy (ron Paul) on multiple MSM channels during the elections, on the internet(all over) spreading the word, yet nobody wants to listen, or they think that its too big of a step to take in a situation like this.
I have and will keep on telling people to wake up for sure. Thats why I started this thread, Im trying to be a part of the fix, not a part of the problem. The more I know, the more everyone else around me knows, and the more their friends know and so on..
But this seems to be a fight that hasnt really been doing too good the first few rounds, and it looks like the russian is beating the hell out of Rocky.
It is really easy to say "Hey this is the fix", but its a lot harder to make it happen. I see a lot of it esp here on ATS, everyone wants to talk about problems, but never solutions. They would rather it get to the point where they are starving in their own homes before they start casting stones.

"Right now we don't have a choice, and that's by design."

See, I just cant accept that. I just cant. Why arent we marching? why arent we doing something about all of this instead of sitting on our asses judging the beast and not hanging the beast? I mean damn, this isnt what I was grown up to represent, this isnt what my family instilled in me, to just sit back and let things like this happen?


[edit on 2-2-2009 by Common Good]

www.abovetopsecret.com...

this video does a great job of illustrating just how %^&*#$ we are.

[edit on 2/2/2009 by JPhish]

Originally posted by Common Good
What I am not understanding is this, how did they get away with it in the first place?

The ruling class has the schools and press under its thumb. This enables it to sway the emotions of the masses -- Albert Einstein

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. -- Henry Ford

Here are some videos I would recommend if you're interested in the subject:

Money as Debt:

Google Video Link

Fiat Empire:

Google Video Link

The Money Masters:

Google Video Link

America, Freedom to Fascism:

Google Video Link

Zeitgeist Addendum:

Google Video Link

Monopoly Men:

Google Video Link

The Creature from Jekyll Island:

Google Video Link

[edit on 2-2-2009 by username371]

Originally posted by Common Good
How can we possibly get out of this mudstorm?

As with the Great Depression, another world war.

Another Einstein jewel: I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

Common Good, you would be wise to heed the advice given here. There is one quote that I must reference again, as it should be on every billboard, every radio, every TV station 24 hours a day:

Originally posted by eldard
It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. -- Henry Ford

Truer words have seldom been spoken.

In answer to your query as to what can be done.... nothing that isn't painful. The only way to get out of this crisis (short of going through socialism >> communism >> dictator >> revolution) is for a depression to occur. That depression will occur, must occur, because the crisis in itself will cause it.

In a depression, the fat is all trimmed away to show the dry bones underneath. Those bones can then be rebuilt with lean meat instead of fat covering them, but just as it is easier to gain body mass in fat than it is in muscle, it is easier to return to the same system we have today than a lean efficient one, and thus it becomes all too easy to encounter the same results years from now when all those (us) who remember the Greatest Depression have passed away.

The fat in my metaphor is the ease of living which comes with living beyond one's means. It refers to buying a home larger than that which is necessary and larger than you can really afford, because you want it to impress others and as long as everything goes well, you might can pay for it. It refers to paying $50,000 for a new car, when all you can afford (and all you really need) is a $20,000 compact sedan. It refers to not buying Nikes, but instead looking for less expensive, but still well-made shoes. It's growing a garden, even a small one for a few treats along. It's comparison shopping. It's monitoring your bills every month and looking ahead to an unknown future and what it could bring instead of ignoring the warning signs and continuing to live lavishly. It's eating leftovers tonight, just because they're still good, and there's no good reason to throw them out.

The meat is hard work, done with pride and attention to detail. It's sacrifice now for the chance at greater profit tomorrow. It's dedication to making a better life for yourself and your descendants, not through piling up debt, but by working smarter and harder than the next guy. It's competition. And it's compassion through giving others a hand up rather than a hand out. It's not caring what the neighbors bought, but caring that you have the things you need first, the things you want second, and the things the neighbors think you should have never. It's saving some money for the uncertain future ahead. It's independence, and personal strength, not of body, but of character.

The bones are beginning to show through. May we rebuild this country with lean meat this time, and do something about the obesity problem in our financial future.

And may we all survive to emerge from the other side to help with the rebuilding.

TheRedneck

reply to post by username371


Good summary. However ihave read that at the end of the year the profits of the federal reserve are returned to the treasury. Perhaps there are also some profits that the private banks keep.

The biggest problem is their power over interest rates and thus the economy as a whole. We need to have permenent interest rates and the raising and lowering of reserves to stimulate or slowdown economic growth. We also need to base the money supply on real asset levels and production abilities. anything else is too easy to manipulate.

Originally posted by username371
Here are some videos I would recommend if you're interested in the subject:

Money as Debt:

Google Video Link

Fiat Empire:

Google Video Link

The Money Masters:

Google Video Link

America, Freedom to Fascism:

Google Video Link

Zeitgeist Addendum:

Google Video Link

Monopoly Men:

Google Video Link

The Creature from Jekyll Island:

Google Video Link

[edit on 2-2-2009 by username371]

cool vids dudde props hmanna

i thinks we need to get the dollars value back climbing and then once we does that we will be better off but u know I think that Obama is gonna spend too much dolllars which causes this process of inflotion

Originally posted by disgustedbyhumanity

Good summary. However ihave read that at the end of the year the profits of the federal reserve are returned to the treasury. Perhaps there are also some profits that the private banks keep.

The real profits come from the income tax. Instituted the same year as the Federal Reserve, the 16th amendment supposedly gave the government the power to tax people's income.


Since it began, over $20 Trillion has been paid by Americans in income tax.


Many argue that we need this tax to pay for government expenses. The reality of the situation is that all the income tax pays for is the interest on the debt to the Federal Reserve. So while some of the money made in printing cash does indeed go to the treasury, the bulk of our money isn't cash anyway. Approximately 97% of what we use as "money" is digital, and the interest on this digital money is paid via the income tax.


In the early 80s the Grace Commission under Ronald Reagan came to the following finding:

Grace Commission report submitted to President Ronald Reagan, January 15, 1984:
"100% of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal Debt. All individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services taxpayers expect from government."


The services of government are paid by taxes other than income tax:

Roads are paid for by fuel taxes
Schools by property taxes
Social security payouts are taken out of people's paychecks
The military is funded two ways: by corporate income tax and by borrowing money overseas (irony that the people we point our guns at buy our debt, no?)



The truth of the matter is that what we see in this country economically is a financial coup d’état, resembling a form of communism more than anything:

We must take note that both a heavy “progressive” income tax as well as a centralized banking monopoly are two planks clearly espoused in the “Communist Manifesto.” Here are Planks 2 and 5:

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.


These realities of our financial lives are not coincidences.

seems like the revaluation upward of gold may play a role soon enough to be able to reflate some of the debt away and grow the economy........in the mean time a case can be made that the fed either has to let the dow go under 8000 or stop using the investment banks who for some reason have unusually HIGH net short positions in gold and silver futures

seekingalpha.com...

any thoughts?

perhaps Obama, Geithner, and Bernanke will be using Gold revaluation and even a possible executive order to help the economy reflate

and there is another article on 321gold about " is obama whering a gold mask" good read www.321gold.com...

seems to me should OBAMA ever come out with an executive order to confiscate gold it would be unpopular and the MAJORITY of people who give it back would do so not for FEAR of Prosecution or Arrest, but for fear that they don't know how long it would be not accepted or LIQUID (be able to be used for a payment or legally transferred to cash) and they may not have the financial patience or cushion to be able to wait for a time when they could redeem it.......then after a period of time when sufficient gold is confiscated/exchanged for say 1,500$$ (in a couple months) the gold would be revalued upward to 5,000$ or so.

Bernanke believes this was a useful tool by FDR, could obama pull the trigger? Obe1 any thoughts?



[edit on 2-2-2009 by cpdaman]

Thanks a lot guys/and gals for your imput on this subject.
So now everyone who has read this thread, may have a better idea of why things are the way they are(even if they didnt post a reply). I myself have learned some new things, and am glad that I started this thread.

So I read all the posts in here, and it is common ground to say that most of you believe that the only way we can get out of this mess, is to let it blow up in our face, or to start another war.
One of those options is the more realistic approach, the option that we all know what our leaders would rather have, you got it, war.
That is how we got out of the last depression, was war. But even if we did go to war, and was able to buy our way back out of debt, do any of you really think that we would change our policy when it comes to lending?
I do because I dont think the US will be the same after that, since we will have mexico and canada part of our union(and the new currency would begin). This is how they are going to tie the economic troubles and war troubles all into one ball. It might even happen before the next great war to get the ball going. Once that happens, there would benothing we as the people could do about it, now is there? Not like we can do anything about it anyways short of killing each other in order to make that happen. thoughts?