Crew welds 200 plates to Building for 3 months "almost unknown"

Originally posted by jfj123

You'd think I might be pretty aware of that given my previous post on this thread, wouldn't you say?

Obviously not.

Really? Can you tell me what exactly I am referring to?

Does it really matter?
Detroit metro area.
Anywhere from single story office buildings up. Some of the largest buildings in MI.
Private offices, medical buildings, R&D firms for the automakers, etc...

Of course it matters. It matters as much as what the people you are around are thinking, and what they are thinking is exactly what determines how noticeable you are. It depends on the environment, the context, etc. For example, an IT guy on a busy office floor (WTC) will seem more "mild" to someone working there than an IT guy walking around through a doctor's office or offices in a research firm to a secretary. Really if you can't get around without being bothered by nosy people then I think the real problem is that you're not trying or aren't any good at it. People have been posting anecdotes all through this thread demonstrating what can be accomplished.

Originally posted by gottago

which is the point of bsbray's posting about the retrofit of Citicorp tower here.

No.

The OP is about whether or not it's possible.

Of course anything is possible. (nearly )

Have you ever heard of the expression that a criminal must be perfect every time, but the cops only have to get it right ONCE?

That's the problem with all this, just ONE miscue, ONE nosey maintenance guy, ONE nosey ex-military guy that worked in the towers and knows what RDX is, ONE nosey building manager, ONE nosey building engineer,etc...... and the jig's up.

This is why it would never happen like this.

This is why real truthers, actually interested in truth, realize that none of the so-called evidence that the TM likes to use as evidence of explosives just doesn't hold water, and it never did. They are rare.

This is why if there WAS an inside job, it would NOT have involved planting explosives, but relied on just the jets.

If the TM could ever cometo its collective senses and find their intellectual bearings, they would realize the truth in this.

I won't be holding my breath though, cuz collectively, the TM shows nothing but an astonishing ability to expose their intellectual and moral bankruptcy.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Does it really matter?
Detroit metro area.
Anywhere from single story office buildings up. Some of the largest buildings in MI.
Private offices, medical buildings, R&D firms for the automakers, etc...

Of course it matters.

What I meant by "does it really matter?" is that no matter what I say, you will think I'm wrong.

Really if you can't get around without being bothered by nosy people then I think the real problem is that you're not trying or aren't any good at it.

Yes that must be it. I'm not any good at it with my successful business. It must be me that's wrong instead of you. Yes, yes that's it

People have been posting anecdotes all through this thread demonstrating what can be accomplished.

And people have posted statements that agree with mine. So what?

Look the reality is that myself and others who work in these buildings for a living, have experiences of people who do and do not pay attention. You've decided that no matter what, you are right and I and the others who have experienced what I have, are wrong.

Hypothetically of course people could have sneaked into the buildings for months and planted demolitions. Of course hypothetically we could also say the Klingons did it

[edit on 3-2-2009 by jfj123]

Originally posted by g raj
I worked in demolition from 2002 to 2007. We would do work in schools, malls, office buildings, government buildings, and factories. Many times, we would be working in one section of the building, while the other parts were still occupied. I never once was asked for credentials, or questioned about my presence(most people wouldn't even make eye contact and/or acknowledge my existence).
As long as you have a pair of dickies and a hard hat, you can walk around nearly anywhere practically unnoticed(and before you wonder if i'm just a forgettable type of person, i am 6'3", with long hair, not exactly the blend into the background kind of guy). Every time i hear someone say that someone would have noticed this activity i laugh.
In the malls, and some of the buildings, we had to work at night due to noise complaints. We would come in after all employees had left, had our own keys, and would clean up and leave before the first employee showed up. I am pretty sure that my crew could have accomplished that which so many people say is impossible, and probably in a shorter time than most would believe.

edited to change 6/3 to 6'3"

[edit on 1-2-2009 by g raj]

>> Since you worked in the field.. how long would it take and how many men to wire something Like WTC?

I never doubted that it WAS a demolition job in the WTC. I saw a 20 story section in the video, turn to dust in mid-air. The speed of fall is impossible with a normal collapse, because the floors below add resistance. You also certainly, wouldn't get steel "snapping" at sharp angles that look like they were cut or a shaped charge was used.

>> I'd also like to point out that Marvin Bush, had a security company, that was given the job of providing security for WTC the year that Silverstein took over those buildings from the State.

>> Instead of the FBI running the investigation, like they did in the first WTC bombing, a company called Controlled Demolitions was tasked with the job (same company was used on the OK City bombings I believe).

>> I wonder if demolitions people weren't put in security personnel clothes or brought in at night. Whole floors were closed off a couple months before 9.11. And scheduled Bomb-sniffing dogs were cancelled. And all the video feeds quit working on that day. And of course, the hijackers were removed from the flight manifests on the planes. It isn't possible that SOMEONE wasn't working from the inside.

You don't get hijackers getting passports at a CIA base in Saudi Arabia when they are on the CIA watch list every day do you?

Who had access? Who had control of the investigations? Who benefitted?

Originally posted by Seymour Butz

Originally posted by gottago

which is the point of bsbray's posting about the retrofit of Citicorp tower here.

No.

The OP is about whether or not it's possible.

Of course anything is possible. (nearly

)

Have you ever heard of the expression that a criminal must be perfect every time, but the cops only have to get it right ONCE?

That's the problem with all this, just ONE miscue, ONE nosey maintenance guy, ONE nosey ex-military guy that worked in the towers and knows what RDX is, ONE nosey building manager, ONE nosey building engineer,etc...... and the jig's up.

This is why it would never happen like this.

....

LOL.

Not if you are investigating yourself.

There were THREE nosy maintenance guys, on the record, talking about explosions in the base of WTC. All sorts of whistle-blowers. I even watched the BBC talk about the complete collapse of WTC 7 15 minutes before it happened.

There were all kinds of mistakes.

Just read about the admission, that officials LIED about the WTC 7 collapse -- they now admit that it was at freefall speed as well. That was a different form of construction. Now we have two wild ass physics theories to try to explain how they fell so perfectly.

Oh, and we have about 20 firefighters talking about hearing explosive charges. And of course, people explain this as the sound of lights popping from heat -- as if NY's firefighters had never been in burning office buildings before. I mean, I'm not even scratching the surface.

Perfect crime? Heck, did you KNOW that our Federal Reserve printed $1.5 trillion and just gave it to the banks without waiting for congress or that TARP farce to pass? Did THAT escape everyone's attention like this perfect crime?

I know that the head of FAA Security, destroyed the radar tapes of 9/11. He was admonished after his perfect rebuttal of why he did such a thing; "I don't know" he said.

WOW, it's a perfect crime because people are perfectly gullible. Can we not look at the looting of our treasury, the Iraq War based upon lies, Katrina disaster (on purpose) and the 9/11 building collapse in reverse? Its a string of calamities to allow for disaster politics.

The banking collapse was no more an accident or a surprise to the people who caused it than was the WTC collapse. The banking robbery was in broad daylight.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by optyk phyba
i dont think you have proved your point that it could have been done without anybody noticing that something was going on. some one would.

You're talking about building supervisors, etc. I think if anyone went into the WTC Towers to "set things up," they would have done it with proper clearance. Not just walk in off the street, do it, and leave. So this would not be a problem.

I can't speculate who gave them clearance, but that's one detail I'm not concerned about. You can believe it would be impossible to contract out a front team if you want, but I know the CIA and other agencies have done just that and even much more sophisticated work that is declassified and in public domain for you to read about. Put short, if somebody wanted it to happen, it would happen. Not impossible. That was my point, and it's still valid.

And I hope you realize, even your defense of this fallacious argument admits that all you have is "maybe someone would have been seen." But given proper clearance, like I said, I really don't think this would ever be an issue.

[edit on 1-2-2009 by bsbray11]

here i made it bold to stand out for you.

As has been mentioned, at any one time there would regularly be several teams of engineers and other work forces tasked with routine maintenance and other jobs within the WTC.

Two projects are notable for their proximity to the buildings core structure:

1. The upgrading to the fireproofing.
Kevin Ryan discussed a correlation between the floors upgraded and the floors of impact, fire and failure.

2. The elevator upgrading and maintenance.
In the year prior to 9/11, ACE Elevator "undertook what was perhaps, one of the largest, most sophisticated elevator modernization programs in the industry's history" to the elevators in WTC1 and 2.
Drive to the Top, Elevator World, Inc., 20 Feb 2001

“Those [core] columns which were situated adjacent to and accessible from inside the elevator shafts failed at an early stage of the collapse. Those columns which were remote from the elevator shafts, and not accessible from the elevator shafts, survived the early stages of the collapse." Gordon Ross, mechanical engineer: Shafted

On Sept. 11, the elevator mechanics — many of the same men involved in the rescues in 1993 — left the buildings after the second jet struck, nearly an hour before the first building collapsed. The 83-person elevator crew worked for ACE Elevator, a small Palisades Park, N.J., company that won the maintenance contract from Otis in 1994. At the time the elevator mechanics left, dozens of people were trapped in stuck elevators. Other people lost their lives trying to rescue those trapped in elevators, including a mechanic from another company who rushed to the Trade Center from down the street. The departure of elevator mechanics from a disaster site is unusual. The industry takes pride in rescues.

Elevator mechanics left WTC before collapse, USA Today

Given the choice, I doubt that I would have remained in the building after the first strike and I don't suggest they had any involvement, it is merely illustrative of the kind of access that would facilitate such a black operation.

reply to post by Seymour Butz


Seymour, please don't think we're as naive as all that. You do know of course that the FBI supplied the bomb that went off in the basement of the WTC in 93, right? corroborated by court transcripts and a taped conversation between an informant and his FBI handler as well? Of course you do.

Just like you also know that, as bsbray mentioned in an earlier post, the first reports, and actual accounts by bomb-squad personnel, stated that several unexploded devices had been found in the Murrah Bldg in OKC. And of course you also know that even the early on-scene tv broadcasts from the site showed reported that the bomb squads were removing the bombs, on live teevee.

So I take the Jack Bauer line with a grain of salt.

Oh, and btw, the arrest rate for crime in the US in 2005 was less than 25%, and 60% for murder.

And jet fuel does not explain the months' long 1000 degre+ temps in at ground zero or the concrete dust mixed with high levels of heavy metal particulate traced by the USGS to the building's actual contents, wiring, and hvac systems, nor does it explain all the other anomalies of the collapses. But then you know that too, as an avid participant on this board. Why you ignore all this is another question.

edits highlighted.

[edit on 3-2-2009 by gottago]

Originally posted by VitriolAndAngst

1-There were THREE nosy maintenance guys, on the record, talking about explosions in the base of WTC.

2-There were all kinds of mistakes.

1- a few of things about that.
a-Nobody sane isn't saying that there wasn't explosions of some type. Explosions do not equal explosives. Anybody down there would have been killed by cutter charges large enough to damage the columns at that level. In another thread, I calculated that at the level that the jets hit, they would have been 5-6 kg. That doubling the steel thickness requires 3x the charge. And the core columns at the base were 2x as thick as above, and bigger dimensions. So a minimum 20kg or 40 lbs to do the job. Now go here : www.makeitlouder.com... to see that 1 lb of TNT gives 180 dB at 15'. 10x or 10 lb would give 190 dB at 15'. 2x or 20 lbs would give 193 dB, doubling again to 40 lbs gives 196dB. Doubling the distance lowers the dB by 6. So at 30' it's 190 dB, 60' is 184dB, 120' is 178 dB. Cruise around that a little, and you'll see that people die at those SPL levels.
c-They stated that there were fireballs. Fireballs = jet fuel deflagrations.

reply to post by gottago

Seymour, please don't think we're as naive as all that. You do know of course that the FBI supplied the bomb that went off in the basement of the WTC in 93, right? corroborated by court transcripts and a taped conversation between an informant and his FBI handler as well? Of course you do.

So why did some of my friends tell me different ?

Like the one who worked at AGL Welding on Rt 46 in Clifton NJ - had to
id the Arab guy who bought 3 tanks of compressed hydrogen. The ones
they packed around the bomb to boost the explosion

Or my friend the paralegal at Allied Signal (now Honeywell) - she was there when FBI showed up to arrest Nidal Ayyad, one of the bombers,
watched as "perp walked" him out of the building.

reply to post by thedman


You answered your own question--they needed them for the perp walk photos.

Originally posted by gottago

Seymour, please don't think we're as naive as all that.

I do think that, since the TM is collectively naive and intelluctually bankrupt enough to believe the garbage from CT sites.

And again, how does posting some screwup by the FBI - that was exposed, BTW - evidence that somebody inside the NWO did it WITHOUT being found out?

Every time the TM posts about how such and such was found out and exposed it weakens your argument.

Originally posted by Seymour Butz

Originally posted by gottago

I do think that, since the TM is collectively naive and intelluctually bankrupt enough to believe the garbage from CT sites.

And again, how does posting some screwup by the FBI - that was exposed, BTW - evidence that somebody inside the NWO did it WITHOUT being found out?

Every time the TM posts about how such and such was found out and exposed it weakens your argument.

I'll first note thedman's post above, which shows he doesn't buy what you just acknowledge--grudgingly--as an FBI "screwup." Some screwup!

I'll also refer you to my earlier post about using fibre optic lines for CD; does the discovery of that 2001 patent weaken or strengthen the argument of this thread?

edit for wayward quotes



[edit on 3-2-2009 by gottago]

Look, bottom line.. you can argue that 'anything is possible' and no one is going to be able to prove you wrong. If you want to believe that they were able to successfully plant enough explosives in the correct spots to make a perfect demolition, even though each day around 50,000 people worked in the towers, and 200,000 passed through, and who knows how many janitorial and maintenance workers being there day and night, and no one noticed, that's your prerogative.

For all the supposed slip-ups and screw ups and bungles surrounding what folks seems to consider mass-murder by our government, it's astounding that not one person involved in the cover-up came forward afterward, that no one saw anyone planting wreckage, running cables, planting explosives, knocking over light poles, saw a jumbo jet flying away from the Pentagon after a mystery missile supposedly hit it, so and and so forth. Someone saying 'pull it' (which by the way, demolition experts who have been asked, say that means nothing to them.. it's not in their jargon) apparently is proof positive that they killed people.

Everyone who reported seeing a jumbo jet flying into the Pentagon is apparently deluded, stupid or lying. Someone who did NOT see it hit, but reported it flying in a different spot than the official report however, apparently makes it an open and shut case.

It's difficult to rationally discuss these events when here, everyone who believes it is a cover up, state that absolutely ANYthing said that helps their case, no matter how flimsy the evidence, is absolutely true — while they berate, ridicule, scorn and dismiss any evidence or people that doesn't meet the criteria with their beliefs, or disagree with their theories.

I've not called anyone names. I've not been disrespectful or rude. And yet I've been called a disinfo agent, and treated like an idiot, because I don't agree with these theories.

If the purpose of these folks is to drive away anyone who doesn't proclaim that our government committed mass murder, and strokes each others egos on their brilliant logic and research, well, I'd say they are doing a fine job. I'm not sure I'll post further on the 9/11 boards, they are almost a laughable joke at this point, imo.

Originally posted by Seymour Butz

Originally posted by EvilAxis

and synchronous with the collapses

Really? This is great!

So both collapses were caught on multiple videos, and according to you, there were 130-140dB explosions directly preceeding - meaning within moments - the collapse initiations.

Can you link me to one of these videos then?

No? Then you are simply proclaiming that you lie.

Don't expect me to cure your deafness, Seymour, nor your blindness, but here you go:



Do you accuse all the emergency workers who testified to the explosions of lying?

You know, and I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down.

I had heard right before the lights went out, I had heard a distant boom boom boom, sounded like three explosions. I don't know what it was. At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out.

there was an explosion in the south tower, which, according to this map, this exposure just blew out the flames. A lot of guys left at that point. I kept watching. Floor after floor after floor. One floor under another after another and when it hit about the fifth floor, I figured it was a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I was there in '93.

Then there was another it sounded like an explosion and heavy white powder, papers, flying everywhere. We sat put there for a few minutes. It kind of dissipated.
...
That's when we heard this massive explosion and I saw this thing rolling towards us. It looked like a fireball and then thick, thick black smoke.

I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought - at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.

Q. Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?

A. No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did you see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.

Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see these popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building.

Just a fragment. Names and refs removed for brevity. See FDNY Oral Histories

As a person who has personally been employed in the engineering field for over 20 years and who has been schooled in both physics and structures it is my personal opinion that the collisions of the jet airliners and the subsequent fires could never have naturally caused those buildings to collapse in on themselves and be completely obliterated in the way that they were. The odds of it happening naturally must be many times higher than you winning the gazillion dollar lottery. As far as I'm concerned the World Trade Center was the victim of a very sophisticated demolition with the plane attacks acting as a diversion to draw attention away from what must have been going on below the impact point. Skyscrapers have been struck by planes before and none have ever collapsed in such a fashion. In point of fact the Empire State Building was struck by a tanker plane full of jet fuel a few years before the Trade Center was designed. There was a fire, to be sure, but the structure reamained standing. And for those of you that would claim that the design of the towers was flawed, if that were the case then you can be sure that the architect would have been hauled into civil court for a massive negligence lawsuit. To date no such lawsuit has been brought before the courts and the architect has gone on record defending his design and claiming that the impact and ramifications of such a collision were considered when the plans for the buildings were drawn up.

Those buildings were huge. You could get away with anything in there. If you look like you belong people are not going to ask you anything. Why would they. Workmen probably always were working on those buildings so I'm sure you would get used to the site of them. Do you really think someone is going to go wheres your pass? One person said they pay attention to everything at work. Maybe so but is your office as big as the twin towers? What really sickens me about 911 is that it was SO obvious. It was the perfect storm. Too many things happened that were not coincidences. You hijack a plane with box cutters and the 200 or so passengers just sit there?? Then the planes just don't get shot down. Then the buildings fall under VERY strange circumstances that haven't happened since then and many more. I really think the reason why people want to believe the official story is because they cant wrap there mind around thinking that their own government could do such a thing. People are so gullible. The news is so sickening. There is so many holes in the official story its insane. If a plane hit the pentagon then the damage should have been as long as the plane right? OPEN UP YOUR MIND. Did you see the way the planes hit the buildings? And inexperienced pilots did this??? This is all part of the plan to take your rights away under the guise of "national security". If they tried to do things like the patriot act before 911 people would be outraged and it would not work. But after 911 people were so scared they would do anything to make them feel a little safer. The world you live in is a lie. Your enemy will stab you in the back and look right in your eyes and ask you are you alright.

Originally posted by jfj123

Really if you can't get around without being bothered by nosy people then I think the real problem is that you're not trying or aren't any good at it.

Yes that must be it. I'm not any good at it with my successful business. It must be me that's wrong instead of you. Yes, yes that's it

Your successful business is to sneak around? Because that's what I was talking about, not whatever it is you are actually paid to do.

People have been posting anecdotes all through this thread demonstrating what can be accomplished.

And people have posted statements that agree with mine. So what?

Say you have 10 people posting that a certain piece of piano music is possible to play, and 3 others posting that the same piece is impossible to play. You can draw your own conclusions.

[edit on 3-2-2009 by bsbray11]

I'm just going to put this here.

reply to post by Ittan


LMAO!