Is it time to ditch the bible?

Originally posted by Kapyong

Originally posted by badmedia
No belief is a belief.

War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.

These are the kinds of oxymorons that arise out of unbelief in Christ. It is not without power. Unbelief in Christ is faith in lies. And upon these lies are founded "the universe". So "the universe" is a product of faith. In the deconstruction of "the universe" faith is turned toward the truth of Christ. In this way, faith is *converted* to serve the One, instead of the many...Heaven instead of hell...clarity instead of confusion. Faith that serves light is not called "faith", while faith in the dark is officially *faithlessness*[unbelief in Christ]. In the confusion, however, faith in darkeness is called "faith" and considered to be salvific. But that is only if one loves the darkness , that he may be saved from the light. If one is to be saved, he must sort this out, and discern the difference between what looks or sounds the same...between, for example, "sheep" and "goats". Just because they are four-legged little critters does not mean they go in the same direction. Goats go their own way. Sheep go one way as they are guided by true faith in truth.

Christ!

[edit on 15-2-2009 by Christ!]

reply to post by Christ!


Christ (which you are not)

Am I to understand you when you say those in the darkness will find true faith and those in the light will not? That makes no sense. Christ came to be a light unto the darkness. A light to show us who we really are and what we are. To show us we were part of God's creation plan and that the Father loved us inspite of ourselves and our sin. We have grace with God through the faith we have in Jesus Christ. He is the light, the only true light.



Peace,
Grandma

reply to post by Simplynoone

I agree with you on many points. In just about all main stream religions, they have started to undermine themselves their own very foundations. If we take the example of Noah's Ark for example as a forerunner to Jesus Christ, then you will see that God didn't sent punishment on those who were sinners, but on those who were not in the Ark - the people then had the heart - God's not serious about flooding the place with water, he's just trying to force us to be better, we're good people. In fact Noah is most likely the most dirty sinner that was around, because he more than likely listened to God because he knew the state of his own heart, and that through his own efforts he could not stand righteously before God. The Ark was covered with pitch without and within, normally there is no need for the pitch within, this is symbolic for the blood sacrifice that Jesus was to make in future as mankinds passover lamb with the power to wash away all sins and unrighteousness from all those who have faith, that they can be a new born again creation within Jesus Christ, and as such the righteousness of God is available for all. All that has to be done is to accept. This sounds so easy, but it goes against everything we have been taught in the world that we have to work hard, succeed and get rewarded. That's the big fat lie that every religion promotes, that you can save yourself, earn merit points and please God. Why the heck do we always insist on choosing the hard road, when God and Jesus have already done everything for us on our behalf. Just as then, those who now accept to enter into faith in Jesus, as the Bible says there is only one way to the father, and that is through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus says at the end of the Bible in the book of revelation, that at the Judgement day there will be many who say "Lord Lord Did we not prophesy in your name, did we not cast out demons in your name" Jesus says depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you". The Bible says that in order to see heaven you must be born again, hardly any of the major Christian Dominations teach this - and they are teaching instead doctrines of works and adherence to the Law. This was warned about in the story of the Chief Butler & the Chief Baker. Maybe you remember that when Joseph was thrown into prison for refusing the advances of the sex-crazed Potiphar's wife there were two fellow prisoners who had dreams. They then came to Joseph for interpretation. The Chief Butler dreamt that Pharo called for him to serve and he had nothing to bring but an empty cup, as he was about to give up all hope he saw a vine spring up and grapes ripen and he squeezed 3 of them into Pharo's cup. The Chief baker then told his dream, and he said I was called be Pharo, and I had three baskets of bread on my head and on the top were all manner of bakemeats, then on my way to Pharo came many birds and started eating the bakemeats. Joseph interpreted that the Chief Butler would be reinstated to his former position within 3 days. For the Chief Baker he told him that within three days Pharo would have him hanged. This is also instructing us about Jesus, the Chief Butler - he is going before his Lord with nothing of his own to offer, he receives the blood of Jesus (symbolised by the wine), which is the only righteousness that God accepts, whereas the Chief Baker had Bread (also symbolic for Jesus - remember the last supper) but he put on top of it his own good deeds & justifications of his self-righteousness, he was not solely relying on Jesus for his salvation. Or for example the Prodigal Son story, he went out with half of his father's fortune, blew it away in a place like Vegas, ended up eating sh1t with pigs, then decided to return home and be a humble servant not a Son - he lowered his heart to become one with his father - Home


[edit on 16-2-2009 by blj777]

reply to post by blj777

“I agree with you on many points. If we take the example of Noah's Ark . . The Ark was covered with pitch without and . . This sounds so easy . . Why choosing the hard road, when God and Jesus have already done everything for us on our behalf . . “

1) Assuming a cubit to be 18 inches (it could have been as short as 6 inches), it is painfully obvious to marine architects that no structure that large and made of wood without iron nails could FLOAT in anything more tempestuous than a bathtub! The slightest wave action would cause the vessel to break in half. The guy who told the story was not a navy man.

2) This is closely akin to the “once saved, always saved” bunkum now so popular. You are FREED of any social responsibility. Jesus did it for you! GOD made the world, That is a very selfish religion. Or, some may argue it is akin to the Presbyterian’s pre-destination. That its, you are selected from the foundations of the Universe to end in Heaven or to end in Hell. Do what you may, it’s all a divine fiat accompli! A general cop-out!

Maybe you remember that when Joseph was thrown into prison for refusing the advances of the sex-crazed Potiphar's wife there were two fellow prisoners . .

How can you be so sure “Potiphar’s wife” was not a metaphor for Potiphar himself? After all, Joseph did something to make his brothers HATE him! I’d say the story fits better if you accept that Joseph was gay. Had NOT his brothers have sold him into slavery the Holy Writ required that Joseph be stoned to death. That’s what we call Hobson’s Choice!

Or for example the Prodigal Son story, he went out with half of his father's fortune, blew it away in a place like Vegas, ended up eating with pigs, then decided to return home and be a humble servant not a Son - he lowered his heart to become one with his father - Home . .

Well, we already knew Jews did not like pigs. Pigs will eat their own excrement. Pigs will eat a person if he or she gets caught in a pigpen. This story is as old as time. It is not remarkable. I suppose the best lesson is that some - not all - parents are forgiving. You don’t suppose the son will revert to his former slovenly and indolent habits do you? As so many do in our time. A nice moral tale but hardly earth-shaking wisdom. Being the generous person I am, I'd give the author of this anecdote a C-.


[edit on 2/16/2009 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by Christ!

 

Christ (which you are not)

Am I to understand you when you say those in the darkness will find true faith and those in the light will not? That makes no sense. Christ came to be a light unto the darkness. A light to show us who we really are and what we are. To show us we were part of God's creation plan and that the Father loved us inspite of ourselves and our sin. We have grace with God through the faith we have in Jesus Christ. He is the light, the only true light.

Peace,
Grandma

Those who think that sunlight is true light are in darkness. They will find the true light, even if it takes millions of years. Finding the true light is about finding who we really are. So, Jesus said, "do not hide your light under a bushel". He is talking about the light of spirit, hidden under a bushel of bodies. Bodies hide the light. As we understand who we really are, the true light is released. This is the light which lights up a world of darkness. I am that light. I say to you, do not hide your true light under the darkness of confusion. Put your faith in bodies, or in the maker of bodies, and you will be confused, and unable to shed light on any issue. But with a little faith in me, you will be able to move what seems solid and real and blocking your path home.

Christ!

Originally posted by Grandma
Christ (which you are not)

Am I to understand you when you say those in the darkness will find true faith and those in the light will not? That makes no sense.

It makes no sense because you are not understanding me. If you understood, it would make sense. I did not say those in the light will not find the light of true faith. Through true faith, those in darkness will find the true light. Not some. All. If you insist that time must be cut short in a way that robs anyone of the opportunity to find the light, then you are merely promoting another gospel. The good news is there is plenty of time. In fact, that is all that time is for...for the restoration of the Son of God to his full glory. There is no "world", and no "mankind" in the glory of GoD. Like "money", none of that is taken to Heaven...none of that is salvageable nor worth saving. What is worth saving is the mind of the Son of God, who momentarily thought he had separated from God, and thought he destroyed the Kingdom in favor of identity theft.

Christ!

reply to post by donwhite


Hi donwhite !

Thank you very much for the C-, that was one of my first post's ever to this forum, and to the internet, so for my first go, I am greatly encouraged. I'don't know where you come from, but back in the UK, even with a C- you don't need to be ashamed. Respect !

reply to post by donwhite


The story of Joseph makes it clear why his brothers threw him into the well and Joseph's rejection of Potiphar's wife is clear also. His brothers threw him into the well because of jealousy and fear. He rejected Potiphar's wife because he knew that God considered adultery and fornication a sin - an offense to God. And get this - it was before the 10 commandments were handed down. Interesting that Joseph understood it.

There's no support for the base assumption of your alternative hypothesis, i.e. that Joseph was gay, therefore, we can reject your alternative hypotheses based on this faulty assumption. Furthermore, the reaction of the brothers later on argues strongly against this hypothesis since the brothers could have simply explained their dilemma to Joseph once he had the big stick.

At any rate, based on many of your other posts, which are both long and bellicose, you apparently consider the bible to be entirely fiction. What is the point of you arguing about fictional characters since whatever fiction says about them - is?

reply to post by TheAbstract


TheAbstract:

The Father answers our prayers, but we must remember, that the Bible tells us to pray according to our Father's will.

Even Christ in the garden, before he was arrested and was sorrowful even unto death, still prayed, "Thy will be done"

The Lord always answers prayer. We sometimes get told no, later, and yes.
The Lord has a Plan for us so, we can't see the big picture like he can.

Romans 8:27

"And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will."



Peace to you,
Grandma

reply to post by donwhite


Hi Again donwhite!

I was reflecting on what you wrote in your post. Have you considered the following thoughts ?

"1) Assuming a cubit to be 18 inches (it could have been as short as 6 inches), it is painfully obvious to marine architects that no structure that large and made of wood without iron nails could FLOAT in anything more tempestuous than a bathtub! The slightest wave action would cause the vessel to break in half. ......."

What about the fact that God was with Noah, and I bet that by the Power of God he could even make the New York Stock Exchange float on the roughest oceans and over the seven seas. Remember - Jesus walked on water. Is the God you believe so feeble he couldn't keep Noah's Ark afloat ?

"2) This is closely akin to the “once saved, always saved” bunkum now so popular. You are FREED of any social responsibility. Jesus did it for you! GOD made the world, That is a very selfish religion."

I like this quote from Oscar Wilde - "I am not young enough to know everything." I can't tell you if someone can loose their salvation, and I have no plans in going to try it out for myself. I don't understand how, me having faith in the promises revealed in the Word of God (Bible), and that Jesus Christ had died to open up the way to atone for our sins and restore our relationship with God, in revealing a new righteousness available, that provide through faith in the blood of Jesus which washes away all sins and one can stand within the body of Christ, in all righteousness, not because anyone did anything to earn it, but by the grace of God. How does that mean I am evading my social responsibility. Do you know that the Bible commands us to love our neighbour as ourself. Real born-again Christians, are not tied down by fear, hate, envy, greed, etc, they want to spread the good news, your salvation is just as important to a born again Christian as their own. Don't get confused by the mainstream Religions who have a different Gospel, and say everyone gets to heaven. most of what mainstream religion says is just the ideas of Guru's, not coming out of the Bible. Where is the selfishness with God's FREE GIFT of eternal salvation available to ALL ? I don't Get it ??

"Or, some may argue it is akin to the Presbyterian’s pre-destination. That its, you are selected from the foundations of the Universe to end in Heaven or to end in Hell. .... it’s all a divine fiat accompli! A general cop-out! "

I don't know what they base themselves on - but usually when you think up a name for yourself, it's because you have beliefs that have gone off at a tangent from the basis of the faith, grown away from the Bible, with some guy's interpretation, or new revelation supposedly from God. People have free-will and are not programmed robots, so how can someone be destined for hell ? Sure they are free to choose that path like the Satan worshippers do. But that only proves the argument for free will. Otherwise why create people that end up with your enemy?

"Well, we already knew Jews did not like pigs.....Pigs will eat their own excrement. ......... ...... I suppose the best lesson is that some - not all - parents are forgiving. You don’t suppose the son will revert to his former slovenly and indolent habits do you? As so many do in our time. A nice moral tale but hardly earth-shaking wisdom"

Where did Jesus say he doesn't like pigs ? You are comparing God to how people act. Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

I don't believe the Son will return back to his ways, he's had a change of heart.

"Being the generous person I am, I'd give the author of this anecdote a C-."

Thanks again for sitting in Judgement, are you a Professor or a Judge? which institution gave you the post?

[edit on 20-2-2009 by blj_777]

reply to post by blj_777

Hi Again donwhite! Have you considered the following thoughts ? What about the fact that God was with Noah, and I bet that by the Power of God he could even make the New York Stock Exchange float on the roughest oceans and over the seven seas. Remember - Jesus walked on water. Is the God you believe so feeble he couldn't keep Noah's Ark afloat ?

If GOD was going to save humankind in this rather obtuse way (and genetically improbable), why not just have HIM say so? Like, “I pronounce that everyone dies but the 8 I have chosen!” If this story is intended to prove the value of faith and the capacity of GOD, then I’d say it fails on both counts. Noah had no faith as defined by St. Paul. Noah followed orders. When it turns out later that no one can explain where the water came FROM nor where the water WENT, it makes belief in a worldwide flood nonsensical.

The lack of food for the animals not to mention there was not enough room for all the earth’s animals, makes me conclude the story of Noah is just a Hebrew version of the older and more believable Babylonian story of Gilgamish.

"Or, some may argue it is akin to the Presbyterian’s pre-destination.”

I don't know what they base themselves on - but usually when you think up a name for yourself, it's because you have beliefs that have gone off at a tangent from the basis of the faith, grown away from the Bible, with some guy's interpretation, or new revelation supposedly from God.

I believe the word “Presbyter” comes from the same root words as overseer or elder. Akin to bishop. It is a form of organization. I think John Calvin and John Knox were early pre-cursors to today’s Presbyterians. Pre-destination is a quite logical outcome if you attribute omniscience and omnipotence to GOD. HE would have to know the outcome from the beginning. And etc.

Where did Jesus say he doesn't like pigs? You are comparing God to how people act.

If you don’t know Jews don’t like pigs, then you are not old enough to post here.


[edit on 2/21/2009 by donwhite]

It's so very MOVING to see such a wise group of learned people discussing the Bible, Christianity and how much better the world would be without it!

I especially make note of any information that makes it to the message boards from a source that gets described as "this girl I know" or "a friend" or "this guy at work", etc. Always valuable info!

The REALLY important stuff, is the info that comes from people that have never studied, nor understand the concept and process of studying the Bible. But know just enough to be able to read and quote lines and statements that sound negative or twisted without proper explanation or context.

I'm Sold! Whatever you people decide, I'm with ya!

I wouldn't say ditch the bible...

But like you said, it has so many flaws and such. Someone mentioned that without the bible, there would be no hope. Maybe at the times it was presented, but if that were true, I think it has given us all it has to offer.

Today, I still find myself making "prayers" to say...but to where, I do not know.

There is a saying that you make your own luck. Could we be our own gods? Ultimately...we control who we are, what we are, what we do, where we go, etc.

I would rather by me own god then let someone else rule over me. If I pray, it would be to myself. More of a confidence boost, moral insurance type deal. Because once you realize that YOU rule you life and not some random guy up above, you can go anywhere you want. You do not have to fear hell, you do not have to live your life to someone else, but only yourself. That is how life should be. I am sick of seeing people try to please others just to get accepted. Yeah, I know psychology it is actually self-acceptance, but I still hate it.

Just live your life how ever you damn want to.

Like my signature...Am I two sided if I want to enforce your right to choose?

In other words...be a leader amongst leaders.

[edit on 1-3-2009 by FritosBBQTwist]

reply to post by Thistled


It is time to bitch the Diable.

Proverb:14:12: There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

We can't know what reason GOD does certain things.

Think of this though, even evil brings glory unto God, when it is avenged in the end.

The topic of this has nothing to do with religion at all. I would not say that I am "religious," even so I am a Reverend. This boils down to censureship. It's not good for man to throw away their ideas. Not many people would burn books, including myself. Even though I do have a personal relationship with my Creator, I understand that not everyone does, nor will they ever. Does this mean that I will go out there and throw out the information out there that I find to be anti-christian? of course not. I think it's important for all information to stay on the shelves, whether I find it credible and important or not.
Thanks. Rev. Jeff D.

reply to post by blj_777

Where did Jesus say he doesn't like pigs? You are comparing God to how people act.

post by donwhite

 

If you don’t know Jews don’t like pigs, then you are not old enough to post here.

My apology to your Mr blj_777. I realize my response was unduly sharp and was not good manners. I did not give your question the attention it and you deserved. So here it goes.

I am clearly not a Trinitarian. If I was to be religious at all, the best I could do is to be a Unitarian. Who are mentioned by name in the Peace Treaty of Westphalia, by the way. Which that is not all bad! But I cannot at the same time ascribe both humanity and GOD to the person of Jesus. If Jesus is or was GOD then the whole story of his sojourn here is worthless. And either Jesus or the writer was dead wrong to put the words “My GOD, My GOD, why hast thou forsaken me?” into Jesus’ mouth. From the AV. I don’t speak Elizabethan outside the religious context.

All those Bible stories were told and re-told despite what today we see as glaring inconsistencies. And that is because starting in the 17th and 18th centuries, we have become so much more exact in everything we do. Before the Age of the Enlightenment, people believed everything, afterwards, we believe nothing! Before, people believed everything, after they believed nothing.

Back to Noah. The tellers and listeners to that story gave not a whit for the length of a cubit. It was the story they enjoyed telling and retelling. The only lesson that was intended in that story is that the GOD of the Israelites is GREAT! And some argue it is a third story of the origins of the Hebrew people. And which the earliest compilers of the Jewish scriptures included all 3 in Genesis.

Then along we come some 3,000 years later and begin to pick it apart for its lack of technical correctness. We are the first to insist that all the old texts be ACCURATE by our standards. Heck, even the smartest people of the day in Rome including Julius Caesar killed pigeons and examined their entails to foretell the outcome of momentous battles! They obviously believed that. We for real do not. Times change. Regrettably, the written worlds cannot change to stay up to date.

That puts Biblical literalists into an impossible position.

Back to the pigs. I remind you that Jesus was first, foremost and ONLY a Jew. And Jews have 614 Commandments. 10 of which they share with johnny come lately Christians. The other 604 relate to food and tribal law. One of those is not to ear pork. And not to keep pigs.

Sorry I was too abrupt Mr blj_777. Carry on!


[edit on 3/15/2009 by donwhite]

reply to post by B.A.C.


Like I have said countless times in this post, can you JUST ONCE post in this thread without using quotes from that book? Because if you can't, you come across as a brainwashed individual.

I will add, that applies to everyone who replies with quotes. IMO you are not welcome to post if you are gonna use quotes.

Read the darn post, it clearly states, no quotes.

Looks like I am proving my point here dunnit?

Responding to the OP I think I should just ditch this thread. Ye man of weak faith. Old testiement old laws. NEw testiment new laws. Beside if the bible is true(which it is) who are you to question God. To many people dont respect God for what he is. The creator. If you hear the saying, dont bite the hand that feeds. You.

As for the what you all talking about now. God did say he is coming. Da the bible. God says what he will do and it comes to pass. The bible is a written history book, prove throw science, history, archeology, and much more. IF the bible is a real history, and so accurate in history and archeology, what makes you think its message is wrong.

Jesus is the Son of God, and God is watching. Life after death is a big gamble and where you spend it is even more important. Do a better study on where the bible comes from, cuz the bible is not so easily disproven.

reply to post by slymattb

Do a better study on where the bible comes from, cuz the bible is not so easily disproven.

Nor is it easily proven.

Just saying