Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

Challenge Match: Neformore vs questioningall : "The Great Escape, Good Idea or Bad?"

page: 1
16

log in

join

posted on Jan, 31 2009 @ 05:57 PM
link   
The topic for this debate is: "Escaping From The Real World And Living On One's Own (Jungle, Forest etc) Can Lead To A Rewarding Fulfilling Life"

Neformore will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
questioningall will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

There is a 10,000 character limit per post.

Any character count in excess of 10,000 will be deleted prior to the judging process.

Editing is strictly forbidden. For reasons of time, mod edits should not be expected except in critical situations.

Opening and closing statements must not contain any images and must have no more than 3 references.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post. Each individual post may contain up to 10 sentences of external source material, totaled from all external sources.

Links to multiple pages within a single domain count as 1 reference but there is a maximum of 3 individual links per reference, then further links from that domain count as a new reference. Excess quotes and excess links will be removed before judging.

The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.

When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

This Is The Time Limit Policy:
Each debater must post within 24 hours of the timestamp on the last post. If your opponent is late, you may post immediately without waiting for an announcement of turn forfeiture. If you are late, you may post late, unless your opponent has already posted.

Each debater is entitled to one extension of 24 hours. The request should be posted in this thread and is automatically granted- the 24 hour extension begins at the expiration of the previous deadline, not at the time of the extension request.

In the unlikely event that tardiness results in simultaneous posting by both debaters, the late post will be deleted unless it appears in its proper order in the thread.

Judging will be done by a panel of anonymous judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. One of the debate forum moderators will then make a final post announcing the winner.




posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 04:28 AM
link   
Thank you Semper for setting this up so quickly, and thanks in advance to everyone, from casual readers to fellow debaters and the judges for taking time to read what I will have to say during my participation here.

Also - if I may - a big thank you to Questioningall for suggesting the topic of the debate, and showing a willingness to help both of us get our feet planted permanently on the ground in the debate forum. So, let us begin...

Escaping From The Real World And Living On One's Own (Jungle, Forest etc) Can Lead To A Rewarding Fulfilling Life

Opening Statement

Humanity has developed many quirky ideas during its brief tenure on the planet, but none is so ill conceived, or contrived as the modern perception of “The Real World”.

Mankind has created an urban sprawl across vast tracts of land - towns, cities and huge conurbations stretching for hundreds of miles in some places.

These areas are bound together by the intricate threads of modern life - highways, telecommunications, rail systems, airports and ports - all of which serve to offer the illusion of a common need for safety, security and commerce.

But while those places and threads appear to offer comfort, security, social networking and the need for commerce and trade, what they actually do is slowly strangle the essence of what we essentially are – free thinking, inventive, self-determining biological beings.

Whilst the modern environment offers the illusion of convenience, it also offers all of those things that we need to deny - laziness, excess, artificially induced stresses and paranoia. It also opens both individuals and the human collective up to grave danger in many ways, as I will discuss in my later posts.

This cacophony of convenience, overindulgence, instant gratification, instant information and instant peril is, then, “The Real World” that people take for granted. Indeed, what we describe as “real life” is actually not really much of a life at all.

To use a popular culture reference, we live in a Matrix of our own devising.

There is an alternative, and it involves no coloured pills.

It is an alternative that many shy away from out of fear, lack of confidence and self-belief.

And yet this alternative may well be the only hope we have of retaining our natural balance and our essential humanity.

The alternative is this – escape from the cocoon of the “Real World” and experience life as it should be, in the wild, fending for ourselves, learning about our environment and nature and acting in a simple, balanced manner.

Only this way can we come to terms with the world and our actual place in it. By understanding the falseness of our “9-5” and our artificial social and electronic bubble we can come to a realization that there is actually more to life, and ultimately be rewarded with a sense of fulfillment, connectivity with nature and feel alive.

And that is the premise of my argument here. In my following posts I will look to discuss the following;

1. The potential perils of our current ways of living.
2. How to live outside the “Real World”
3. The benefits of a simpler life.

I will, of course, tie all three together in my closing statement.

And of course, I will answer the questions my opponent puts to me as clearly and candidly as possible.

I look forward to Questioning’s opening statement, and the debate to come. I hope it will be a fun experience for both of us.



posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 01:13 PM
link   
Thank you Semperfortis for setting up this debate, I know I am entering an arena of immense intelligence and thought provoking debates in this forum. I want to thank neformore for doing this debate with me, I am thrilled, we both are debating for the first time with each other. I am sure Neformore will provide an immense and formidable challenge for me. Thanks to everyone else, who has warmly welcomed me into this forum and has offered advice.

Debate topic - “Escaping from the Real World”:

Through this debate, I will show – there is no “escaping of the real world”, the “real world” stays with all of us no matter where we go. Yes, we can go to a different place, but that place too has it’s own realities we would have to deal.

Let’s immediately get to the basis of the “falsehood” where escaping of reality is possible.

Right now, I want everyone reading this, to sit back and think about vacations you have taken..
In fact close your eyes – feel, see and remember in your mind, how it was fantasized about before you went on vacation... Let your senses completely take over, do you feel the excitement built up, do you see your fantasies created before the “most wonderful and perfect vacation” was taken? Is there excitement of going somewhere new?

Wow, lets, keep this moment going further, it just feels too good to stop -.I can visualize it now, are you?…remember those fantasies of how the vacation was going to turn out. What, was part of that fantasy? “How everyone was going to get along “perfectly”, how it was going to be the greatest experience ever, how everything was going to go perfectly without any problems”?. Do you feel it, can you see it? I can! Yes, my excitement was built up over it – the most wonderful, perfect vacation/holiday ever!

UHH,SCREECH HALT as a LOUD PIERCING SIREN goes off – WAKE UP ”real world” time again…..has any of those “perfect” vacations turned out to be as “perfect” as you had envisioned them beforehand? Did everyone, really get along perfectly, was it without problems, did you indeed find paradise? I would gather the answer is “No”, nothing is perfect – nor is a complete escape – no matter how much we desire or visualize it to be.

The only thing that happens, is we trade one reality for another, each with their own set of challenges. The challenges, each of us have where we live right now, probably include many stresses and situations we would like to get away from. In wanting to escape those stresses, we begin dreaming of paradise and thinking “if only” I lived there, then “ I would be happy and not have any problems to deal with”. Through this debate, I will prove there is no “paradise” in the world as we may dream of in our mind, even if, we go to the middle of the jungle or set sail on the high seas.

I will show, we will always take one piece of “baggage” wherever we escape to. Even by selling all of our possessions and feel free of everything, there is something much heavier than all of our possessions combined – we are never able to leave behind. What is that, you may ask? Right now, I will leave you to guess and think about what it may be, but will discuss it at length during the debate.

I will prove without a shadow of a doubt; any thoughts, fantasy or desire to escape the world and go to paradise in our minds…. is just that, “A Fantasy”. Our desires are real, but the fantasy of paradise and escaping the real world is not possible, a “real world” follows and is created no matter where you may try to run and hide.

One thing, I WILL NOT try to dissuade or counter during this debate … if there is a “dream or desire” people have deep within themselves to do something or live somewhere, I will say “go for it”, I believe everyone should follow their dreams.
I totally advocate that, in fact I believe it is very important for people to follow their dreams, for their own mental health. Part of what is happening in the world (besides the global mess), is people have been talked out of following their dreams by others, and when those dreams die in their body, mind and soul, there is emptiness left, so they look for an “escape” within their existing world. The escape? Look around… drugs and alcohol are just a few products people use for their escape from their world and mind. Following dreams are one thing, escaping from “reality’ is another.
Aahh, by my using the one word “mind”, I have given you a hint to the answer, of a question I asked earlier for you to think about. Remember what it was? Heaviest baggage of all….we take with us, no matter where we go – our mind.

I need to fess up right now, this subject is one I know well… How? I will admit…I have experienced the “escaping reality”, and thus I learned along with my family – escaping is not possible. I have perfect insight, into how reality of one place is merely traded for the reality of another and in fact can be worse then the previous, no matter what fantasies are created in our minds beforehand. Those fantasies are nothing but an illusion, though we desperately try to grip with all our might as the illusion slowly slips away from the creation and the recesses in our mind as we live out our “new reality”.

This is also a perfect “con” debate for me, due to the desires felt deep in my soul to leave all that is happening in the world right now and wanting to “escape” them. I have even done searches on the internet “trying to find – the one perfect place”, I can run and hide.
As much as the very real and very intense desire is within me, I know “reality bites” no matter where I would go. True escape is not possible..


By the end of the debate, neformore will have come to my side of the debate (I just set myself up didn’t I? ), by understanding we can create our “dreams and desires” within our lives as we live them today. Those dreams, desires, and escapes may not be in the complete physical of living in a jungle, hut, cave, or opened ocean, but our lives can improve by channeling the desires, dreams into useful and positive experiences as we live our lives today. He will also agree, through my points and examples, in the end “No escape from a ‘real’ world is possible”.

We can look at commercials on T.V, as our conceptions of things in life, are assaulted. Every product’s selling point, says: “buy this product and your life will be better”. Even some KFC commercials, imply “If you eat our chicken wings, the love of your life will appear”. I have actually been quite appalled at some commercials with the basis of their product bringing you everything you desired or need in life.

Why am I bringing commercials up you ask?

It is proof, we are “sold” everyday on; “if you do this or that, you will then have the perfect life".


Neformore quoted:
highways, telecommunications, rail systems, airports and ports - all of which serve to offer the illusion of a common need for safety, security and commerce.

But while those places and threads appear to offer comfort, security, social networking and the need for commerce and trade, what they actually do is slowly strangle the essence of what we essentially are – free thinking, inventive, self-determining biological beings.


This is not true, having our lives and realities expanded by the social networks we live in right now is a Great thing and ways we are able to live out our fantasies of a more perfect life. Using the internet, and technologies which exist today – is not something that should just be given up tomorrow. The reality is, our lives have improved tremendously by having accessibility to them.

My opponent also said in his opening statement:

from neformore
The alternative is this – escape from the cocoon of the “Real World” and experience life as it should be, in the wild, fending for ourselves, learning about our environment and nature and acting in a simple, balanced manner.
Only this way can we come to terms with the world and our actual place in it. By understanding the falseness of our “9-5” and our artificial social and electronic bubble we can come to a realization that there is actually more to life, and ultimately be rewarded with a sense of fulfillment, connectivity with nature and feel alive.


Really? So, only by leaving everything behind, is the only way, can we experience a connectivity with nature and feel more alive? I beg to differ, everyone can experience a balance of nature and 9 to 5 right now, keeping the best of both worlds. The desires of experiencing nature can be full filled everyday, we just have to take the steps and find the outlets around us to do it. I find the internet is actually one wonderful outlet for experiencing nature – I am able to see the beauty of the world through our “electronic bubble”, by seeing places on the other side of the world, that I can not go to.

My formidable opponent will be trying to make the points, leaving the whole technology world behind, would make our lives better.

Socratic Questions to Neformore:

Q1 - hasn’t technology in the world you live in, expanded your life, doesn’t the “electronic bubble” provide a learning and expansion of your mind right now?

Q2 – have you ever moved from one place to another – expecting to have more happiness after the move?

Q3 – if yes from Q 2 – was the happiness fulfilled, was it “everything” you expected or visualized it would be, and did that happiness stay for a prolonged period of time?

Q4 – Do you believe all your troubles would be left behind, if you moved out into the middle of nowhere?

Q5 – If you believe your troubles would disappear and escape from "the real world” was possible, where would you go?

Ball in your court.. Neformore...



posted on Feb, 2 2009 @ 01:14 PM
link   
I did say in my opening statement that the first of the three points I would cover in my argument was "The potential perils of our current ways of living."

And I thank my opponent for setting up that section of my argument so succinctly with the example they offered up in their opening statement.



UHH,SCREECH HALT as a LOUD PIERCING SIREN goes off – WAKE UP ”real world” time again…..has any of those “perfect” vacations turned out to be as “perfect” as you had envisioned them beforehand? Did everyone, really get along perfectly, was it without problems, did you indeed find paradise? I would gather the answer is “No”, nothing is perfect – nor is a complete escape – no matter how much we desire or visualize it to be.


One word, that sums things up nicely, comes to mind here. Stress

Stress is a hidden killer. There can be no doubt about that. It is our "Real World" legacy.

What causes stress? Pressure. Uncertainty. Information overload. Lack of control

You are sitting in your car on the motorway (freeway). The traffics going no -where because someone has decided to say hello to the central barrier in the most intimate way and eveything is just about grid locked save for one lane past the accident a mile and a half away. You are late to pick your kids up from day care. You haven't moved in 15 minutes. Your cell phone can't get a signal. The guy in the car in the lane next to you is playing euphoric dance music so loud on his in-car stereo that it feels like its piercing your very soul and you want to scream. Some fool further back is smashing on their horn repeatedly. Your head is pounding, your neck is tense. your hands are gripping the steering wheel tighter and tighter.....abandoning your car isnt an option. What can you - in all reasonableness - do about it all?

Nothing.

Hold that thought....

How about this scenario - your boss is a jerk and has thrown your last report back at you and told you to re-write it because he doesn't like your style of presentation, and wants you to include some of his pet buzz-phrases into the mix so he can show your work off to the board of directors and claim it as his own. The air con in the office is out, the temperature is rising, the water cooler has run dry and your fellow employee on the next desk is humming some tune from a TV show that you can't stand, and every time you settle down to start re-typing the phone rings. Your deadline is 3.00pm and its 11.30 already. Lunch is out of the question and that means letting your partner down for the third time that week. When you ring them to explain they take it really badly. You realise at that moment that you hate your job, but the bills are rising, the car needs new tyres (tires!!!), its your kids birthday soon and the money has got to come from somewhere, so you swallow it all, hunker down and force yourself to type. What can you do realistically do about it with all that pressure on you?

Nothing.

Keep holding that thought....

Stressed yet? I was, and I was only writing it.

While all that is happening your body wants you to react. Your heart is beating faster. Your muscles are tensing and getting ready for action. Your body is producing adrenaline that it cannot use. Your mind is looking for escape routes but it can't find any, frustrating itself in the process and causing a self sustaining reaction of hopelessness.

And that is not healthy for you. At all.

What is happening is that your body is in "fight or flight" mode - a natural reaction that all animals have to difficult situations. In other words, what we are meant to do in those situations is either show our immediate displeasure, and fight for our position, or run away.

Swallowing it all and doing nothing is, in limited situations, ok. Your body can cope. Putting up with those kinds of situations on a daily basis is not good for you at all. You run the risk of hyper-tension, stomach ulcers, increased blood pressure, and long term you run a further risk of heart disease and strokes.

But hey - you can cope right? You let off a little steam drinking a few beers, maybe light a cigarette, eat some junk food, surf the net, watch TV or play a video game.

Sounds cool, until you look at the secondary effects of the stress - unhealthy eating, increased intake of alchohol or other stimulants, lack of exercise, leading to (and this is not an exclusive list) kidney and liver problems, lung diseases, failing eyesight and potentially diabetes.

And if the net goes down, or the Tv goes on the fritz or your phone rings right in the middle of your favourite show just as you had got comfortable on the sofa.....

Then the cycle repeats. Drip...drip....drip.....

And then there's information overload. TV. Net. Radio. Cellphones. Everything is 24/7/365. If someone dies horribly in another country then you'll get to know about it straight away, in full glorious colour, with edited highlights for later and endless, mindless punditry by people who make a living off someone elses misery. There is no shelter and no blissful ignorance any more. People are bombarded with doom, gloom and pessimism constantly. The world has been compressed, digitised and force fed into our brains whether we like it or not.

Questioningall makes another good point for me in her post when she says this;



This is not true, having our lives and realities expanded by the social networks we live in right now is a Great thing and ways we are able to live out our fantasies of a more perfect life.


(the bold emphasis is mine)

Fantasies. Not realities. Fantasies. In other words - to quote a line from a song by Adam Freelands "We want your soul"

"Buy a better life from the comfort of your sofa"

Ask yourself, is this natural? Is this how its supposed to be? Working 9-5 so that you can afford to work 9-5? Paying back debts you owe by taking out debts to others? Buying things that you don't actually need as status symbols?

And thats just some of the "mundane" side of "The Real World". Heres the kicker - and think about it very very carefully - its ALL artificial.

There is another way, and in my next post, I'll be explaning how its done.

_

Answers to the Socratic Questions raised by Questioningall



Q1 - hasn’t technology in the world you live in, expanded your life, doesn’t the “electronic bubble” provide a learning and expansion of your mind right now?


Yes.

But thats not to say its a wholly good thing. As I've written above, the "electronic bubble" can be as much of a stress causer as anything else we encounter in life. I wince when the phone rings at home because I have to answer it at work and deal with people who are less than reasonable. My work expects me to be on call 24/7 for 300 days a year, which means my cellphone is always on. The bubble has expanded my life for sure. Has it made it easier and more fulfilling? Probably not.



Q2 – have you ever moved from one place to another – expecting to have more happiness after the move?



Yes - my answer to Q3 makes that short reply clearer.



Q3 – if yes from Q 2 – was the happiness fulfilled, was it “everything” you expected or visualized it would be, and did that happiness stay for a prolonged period of time?


No. But that was to do with another person, not with the circumstances of "the real world" - in fact what I did was swap one part of "The Real World" with another, and in the attempt, literally drove myself into the ground trying to accomplish it.



Q4 – Do you believe all your troubles would be left behind, if you moved out into the middle of nowhere?


Yes I do, because I would just be answering to myself and my family, in a place where I was in control of my own destiny, with no peer pressure to conform, no need to answer to "society" and would be spending my time acting in my own best interests.

Q5 – If you believe your troubles would disappear and escape from "the real world” was possible, where would you go?

I've given this a lot of thought over the years, and although people don't necessarily believe its true, there are still places in the British Isles where it is possible to be isolated from "The Real World". Britain is a temperate country where it is possible to grow modest crops to sustain a family and rear animals, and being an island fishing to eat is always an option. I would choose between a quiet place in Southern Ireland, or a spot close to the West Coast of Wales or Scotland. England itself is too crowded. Further afield, places like New Zealand and Australia stand out as places where one could easily settle to a particularly quiet life.
_

My Own Socratic Questions to Questioningall

1. Do you remember life before the "internet revolution?"

2. If the answer to (1) is yes, how was life more difficult then?

3. How many things do you own that you actually could not, ever, do without? (and please list them!)

4. What was the last thing that really, really irritated you? (Be honest now!)
_

I bounce the ball back across the net, and look forward to your response



posted on Feb, 3 2009 @ 10:18 AM
link   
Neformore – Thank you, you completely stated and confirmed, my side of the debate.

What and how did you do that, you ask?

You confirmed, we can not escape the “real world”, we simply trade one “real world” for another.

You then went on to reiterate my point of – when we do try to trade one world for another it in fact, can cause more stress in our lives, than the previous world.

Let me show you, exactly how you confirmed and stated it.

I am inserting 2 answers from you, from my questions –

1st was the Question #2 - “did you move from one place to another expecting more happiness?”


Neformore’s answer – Yes


Follow up: My Question #3 - “was it everything you expected, etc?”


Neformore’s answer : No. But that was to do with another person, not with the circumstances of "the real world" - in fact what I did was swap one part of "The Real World" with another, and in the attempt, literally drove myself into the ground trying to accomplish it.


Let’s dissect your answers above:

First you had an “illusion” expectation and “fantasy” of how moving was going to be beforehand, since you expected to have more happiness before a move. Yet the new “Real World” did not work out.

The fact is, it does not matter if you blame it on “another person”, because an “illusion” and expectation was still involved due to your own mind creations – even with a person. It is one those “if I had this person ______ or if I had that something ______ (you fill in the blanks)”, then I will be happy syndrome.

The fantasies and illusions we build up in our mind are what convince us there is a “better world” than the one we are in, it does the same thing to us with people.

Neformore, *as an extra bonus for me* (I really want to thank you for this point, as I was going to be going into a big discussion with it, but now I do not need to), it seems, you implied, you had “more stress”

in the attempt, literally drove myself into the ground trying to accomplish it.”
Right there implies, your mind’s illusions, fantasies and expectations of the “happier world” you were moving to, ended up actually causing you more stress than you had before. I am saying that, due to “your words”, you used.

So, you have (in those two answers) done my side of the debate for me.

Now, let’s just say you will beg to differ with me on that analogy, okay, I will give you a little leeway, just for the fun of it, because I don’t want to end this discussion yet.

I do want to point out, you have taken my points in my opening, into a direction which is not there. Your opening was regarding an “electronic bubble” escape – I addressed that statement, but my overall opening, was about how our “mind” creates imaginary “better worlds” out there than our world’s we live in right now. The “electronic bubble” is just part of a world some of us live in, but it is not the points of my side of the debate.

The focus and direction of my side of the debate is - the fact we may “dream, fantasize and create illusions” in our mind, of leaving and escaping the “Real World” – no matter where we may go, we would simply trade one “Real World for another”.

Because everything we “expect, visualize, day dream” comes from our minds – our illusions of the future, place or person ( It doesn’t matter which it is), can still be an unrealistic expectation of what the future holds. Can you grasp, what I am saying? Our mind can convince us of anything, if we let it. So we can be convinced by leaving everything behind we will create a perfect unstressed filled world.

Now – let’s go to a basis of trading our existing “Real World” to an escape of a totally different existence and way of living.

If we dislike our current situation we ourselves are in, how can we escape from it in a completely different way? Do we build and live in a hut in the middle of a jungle, do we buy a sailboat and sail the high seas, do we find a cave or even a deserted island to hide away from all the problems and stresses of the world?

The reality is, everyone of those situations and lives above would/could create a whole different set of challenges, we could be unprepared for, nor considered during our creation of them as a “better world” in our minds.

Thinking of just a few realities of those worlds – which may not come to mind while we are “dreaming” them up, as the illusion is just too perfect to think of negatives, is:

Jungle living: venomous animals, huge anacondas, yucky spiders, monsoons, malaria, finding food.

Deserted Island: cyclones/typhoons/hurricanes, water sources, food sources, snakes, venomous animals.

Sailboat: aahh, I am laughing with this one, because I can tell you a million ways how “escape from reality” crashes down by doing this. You know that song by Melissa Etheridge “My little secret”? The illusions and fantasies built up in the mind of a “perfect, stress free life” by leaving everything you know and owned, to try and sail around the world, can in fact turn lives upside down and cause extreme situations that were never considered or thought of ahead of time, which then puts your life at the very edges of death. It is in fact trading one “Real World” for another, which at times can become an extreme “Real World”.

In saying the above, I want to also emphasize that if anyone has a dream or desire of leaving the situation and “real world” they are now currently living.. DO IT. If it is a desire or dream that encompasses your very being do not let anyone talk you out of it. But just know you would in fact just be trading one world for another, with a completely different set of challenges and no world is without stress, no matter where it is. Thus there is NO escape from “reality”, it is just a trade off. Yet, another way of life can be immensely fulfilling if things that may be of the negative are thought out, and not thrown away in the recesses of your mind, when fantasizing about a new way of living.

If we all think about it, no matter where we would go to “escape reality” another “reality” awaits us and in fact, it could be more dangerous and extreme than the one we were leaving behind, especially if everything, is not thought out.

Questions from Neformore to me:

1. Do you remember life before the "internet revolution?"

Absolutely I do (puts age on my doesn’t it?)


2. If the answer to (1) is yes, how was life more difficult then?

No, it was not at all. But my knowledge has expanded in various subjects, due to researches I do on the internet. I also LOVE to to explore the world's beauty from pictures of nature from places around the world, I have not gone to.


3. How many things do you own that you actually could not, ever, do without? (and please list them!)

This is super easy, first and foremost “My daughter” (though I don’t ‘own’ her), I could not do without her. Clothes for various weather and temperatures, food, shelter and water. I can live without everything else, and in fact I have in previous times. I didn’t have my daughter during them though. I will explain some of those times a little more in my next post, as it is very important and directly corresponds with this debate and my side.


4. What was the last thing that really, really irritated you? (Be honest now!)

Honestly? – though it is taking the debate in a totally different topic, I will tell you……
The last thing, that completely upset me (and still does), was when my thoughts came crashing down about our government – being “by the people and for the people”. After calling everyone I could in government and even emailing Pres. Bush about being against the bailout and hearing that millions were calling with the same opinion as my own – they passed it anyway! I fully and completely realized our government was “not for or by the people” anymore and is completely corrupt. Side note: notice when I joined ATS? Oct. 16th 2008.

Socratic Questions:

Question 1 –
Have you ever gone on vacation and beforehand – thought it would be paradise and everything would be “perfect” during it and it did not turn out that way?

Question 2 – have you ever thought – If only I got that job/gift/money – after that I will be happy and then weren’t – because there was always something else that was needed after that?

Question 3 – Has anything ever turned out, exactly as you fantasized it would?

Question 4 – have you ever traveled outside your county, a place you always dreamed of going to, thinking it was a place you would like to live – then when you get there, people who live there – say they have always wanted to live where you came from?


Oh, Neformore .......... the ball just got lobbed back to your side of the court!



posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 10:17 AM
link   
At this point in time, due to work commitments, I claim my 24 hour extension.

I will post by 16.18 my time (11.18EST), tomorrow.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:26 AM
link   
The ball got lobbed back with some spin on it I see!

Still, it all fits in with the next part of my discussion here, so I'll address the points raised by my opponent as I go along.

How to "escape" the Real World

The human mind is a wonderfully complex thing. It has evolved over the millenia to the form it is now. Indeed, we humans are - with some very rare exceptions - top of the food chain because of our ingenuity, our opposable thumbs and our willingness to make a difference.

But underneath the glossy sheen of our intelligence, lies something more base. For as much as we may deny it, we are actually mammals. And as such as mammals we have certain base "needs" in order to survive.

Those needs revolve around eating, staying warm, staying safe and an appropriate amount of sleep.

And you could argue that in the "Real World" such things are possible, but as I have already outlined above, the "Real World" harbours all sorts of stresses and strains and tends to leave people wanting "something".

Questiongall frames the human mind as something that creates its own reality, and outlines her argument here;



The focus and direction of my side of the debate is - the fact we may “dream, fantasize and create illusions” in our mind, of leaving and escaping the “Real World” – no matter where we may go, we would simply trade one “Real World for another”.


Thats not the case actually. We, operating on a base level of conciousness, respond to our surroundings far more than we may initially realise. Oh sure, we think we're better than the animals, but in many ways we react in the same manner as they do. Put a wild rat in a cage and it will want to escape. Put a human in a small room and the same residual animal instincts come out. (Which is why imprisonment is a punishment suprisingly!).

But it can be more subtle that simply walling in. Our sensory input works all the time, and we are bombarded with all kinds of sounds, noises and smells associated with modern life. Even simple things such as colours can have an effect on mood, and whilst we can regulate our own homes, we are forced into other environments by society that we have no control over whatsoever.

Now lets expand the cage analogy, and add my previous post about the perils of modern life. This "Real World" of ours is, perversely, a cage of our own making. As explained in my previous post, the way we live our lives is almost entirely artificial. We pen ourselves in and surround ourselves with items that are supposed to alleviate stress, but instead propagate it.

This then, is why people don't feel fulfilled. This is why they spend their times thinking "what if" and why they feel they are getting nothing out of life.

And this is why getting out of the way and removing yourself to a different location permanently (as my opponent so rightly pointed out whilst apparently campaigning on my side here! - holidays don't count, they are a trade off of one imagined set of circumstances and stresses against another) can lead to a more rewarding and fulfilling life, because by doing so we can undertake the following;

- take charge of our life and be masters of our own destiny
- return back to a cycle and lifestyle that we govern
- provide and care for ourselves.
- create an environment that we are happy with without interference

None of this is possible in the "Real World", because it is governed by sets of socially imposed rules of conduct that place limitations on what people can exepect in life.

So, how is escape possible?

Firstly, there needs to be a will to make a change. Without that, nothing is possible at all.

When the will is there, the next step is research. Research is necessary to establish several things - where you wish to go, what the underlying conditions there are, what flora and fauna you are likely to find there, what the weather is like and what dangers the area represents. Research is imperative.

Location choice is very important. Humans can adapt to many different environments, but temperate zones are the easiest to cope with. (This is supposed to be less stressful right?). It also helps if there is a ready supply of materials on hand to build yourself a shelter (which is why forests or forest edge areas are ideal.) A ready supply of water is essential and - in the form of streams and lakes also provides a food source for fishing. It is also possible to dig yourself a well.

I know...all sounds hideously complicated. But its not. Think about it. Before all of our modern conveniences, this is exactly how people did it before we all drove ourselves into the ground

Having done your research, and picked your spot, all that is then required is time and hard work.

And that leads me into my next post, which will explain the benefits of living this way.

Answers to questions posed by Questioningall



Question 1 –
Have you ever gone on vacation and beforehand – thought it would be paradise and everything would be “perfect” during it and it did not turn out that way?


Yes, but that has nothing to do with escaping the "Real World". Thats all to do with expectations, and swapping one stress for another.



Question 2 – have you ever thought – If only I got that job/gift/money – after that I will be happy and then weren’t – because there was always something else that was needed after that?


Yes - and again, that is symptomatic of my argument. Artifically induced stress.



Question 3 – Has anything ever turned out, exactly as you fantasized it would?


Yes. I became a mod on ATS. OK - maybe not a "fantasy", but I did want it to happen



Question 4 – have you ever traveled outside your county, a place you always dreamed of going to, thinking it was a place you would like to live – then when you get there, people who live there – say they have always wanted to live where you came from?


I have travelled to somewhere that I wanted to live, and no, no one there envied where I came from one bit. In fact, the comments offered were that their lives were much less complicated than mine. Says alot really


No questions from me this time



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 08:27 AM
link   

From Neformore: When the will is there, the next step is research. Research is necessary to establish several things - where you wish to go, what the underlying conditions there are, what flora and fauna you are likely to find there, what the weather is like and what dangers the area represents. Research is imperative.

Location choice is very important. Humans can adapt to many different environments, but temperate zones are the easiest to cope with. (This is supposed to be less stressful right?). It also helps if there is a ready supply of materials on hand to build yourself a shelter (which is why forests or forest edge areas are ideal.) A ready supply of water is essential and - in the form of streams and lakes also provides a food source for fishing. It is also possible to dig yourself a well.

I know...all sounds hideously complicated. But its not. Think about it. Before all of our modern conveniences, this is exactly how people did it before we all drove ourselves into the ground


Aah, Neformore, wow it sounds so “easy”, reading and researching how to do something and then “Poof” you can do it, when you get to your new place of living with no stress and very basically.

Well – first, before I get into the nitty gritty of what you wrote quoted above, I have to say one thing…….I am stressed from reading about everything I would have to do, just for basic survival! Dang, it seemed pretty good there for awhile, I was really getting into imagining an awesome life – and carefree existence in a wilderness setting, but now I will have to rethink it!

I would love to have a simple life now – but can’t we negotiate on that “build your own shelter bit”, as much as I like to research and learn about things, I just don’t think I could handle all the stress and aggravation I would have, trying to build a shelter, as I would make mistakes, I am sure. Besides, I would probably be pretty upset, when some big rain and thunderstorm came and my shelter would possibly fall down all around me, due to my research leaving out a few steps.

Regarding those streams and lakes for getting water – what do I need to do, worrying about all those “bad” things (micro – something or others) ….that can be really bad for you? Oh, but that is right…dig a well…jeez, that is “easy” enough. What do I do, shovel? No, you say? A small hole that goes down about 20 feet, then some kind of pump to use to get the water up? UUhh, without “modern tools”. Ok, please tell me how I can do that, without getting completely frustrated and possibly die, before I am able to drink any water!

Oh, Neformore, once I have completed my shelter, water needs, I would love for you to come on over for dinner, please find the normal dinner cuisine served in the jungle ..yummy – eat up! I will be insulted if my guest doesn’t eat everything put in front of them! Please don’t mind my scratching my back all the time, while we are having dinner, it is just the result of living in the jungle!






I have linked a wonderful site, about surviving in the jungle.
www.survival.com...


Once you’ve seen this astonishing video you’ll have a grasp of the amazing variety of skills required to live off the land. If you think you'll never need the skills in this video... you're wrong. The skills we captured were chosen for their cross cultural and trans-environmental value. Furthermore it is important for ANY student of survival or wilderness living to understand how much work is required to stay alive even in the most productive of environments... the jungle.

Yeah, jungle living, peaceful, none stressful, live off the land, no worries…no I didn’t just trade one type of stress with modern conveniences for another stress,of just trying to survive.

Hey, Neformore, I don’t know about you, but, I am going to opt out of that jungle living stuff….my fantasizes and realities just collided! Wow, I am glad they collided, before I made a big move and big mistake! Personally, I don’t need the stress of just trying to survive with my life everyday.

from Neformore: And you could argue that in the "Real World" such things are possible, but as I have already outlined above, the "Real World" harbours all sorts of stresses and strains and tends to leave people wanting "something".

UUHH, yeah, okay……so….the jungle or living off the land….doesn’t have any stresses or strains?

Ok, lets go on from the jungle, that would not cause any stress! Honestly the amount of stress and frustration, I personally would incur there…… I would probably and literally die, while trying to make it.

Going back to the basis.. of any dreaming and imagining of a “new none stressful life” is a creation of our mind. Let’s for the fun of it, from an “extreme” type living in the jungle…..lets go to a very simple farm type living, off the land….wow. doesn’t that sound wonderful and “none stressful”?
Yea, that “jungle life” doesn’t seem to really be my perfect “escape plan” after all, I could not deal with eating monkeys, grubs, getting eaten up by bugs, not even mentioning, trying to build the most basic of necessities, a shelter, besides a clean and drinkable water source.

Okay, the “none stressful” farm living… yep that is the ‘ticket’, right up my alley!
Oh, let me do a little research first, on how to live off the land, and I am sure I will find how farm living is sssooooo wonderful and completely none stressful!

Wow, looks like my research has hit some interesting bumps…
Link: www.hse.gov.uk...

While interviewees tended to associate day-to-day worries and acute stress with farming's intrinsic demands (such as disease and adverse weather conditions), external causes of tension (such as competition and regulation), together with worries about finances and family, were associated with more sustained anxieties. By contrast, work-related aspects of farming stress, such as workload issues and farming practices, involved a combination of physical and mental health effects.

OOOPPPS, my fantasizes and imagination, just hit a “Reality Roadblock!
AAHH DANG IT! This can’t be true?! My imagination and creation in my mind had created a perfect illusion of a “none stressful, perfect, escape from reality” world, in living off the land!

The result of all the research??? There is no “none stressful” reality – anywhere in the world!

That is the actual truth of our existence, no matter where we may want to run and hide to, wherever we would go, we would hit a “real world” wall! As much as we may dream of escaping stress and the real world – we would have another real world waiting for us, and if fully unprepared for the alternate “real world’ we could literally die, while trying to accomplish it!
Facts are facts, and sorry Neformore…in your postings, you have still confirmed the facts, on my side of the debate.

You did yet again with question #1, I asked you, in the last posting….
Have you ever gone on vacation and beforehand – thought it would be paradise and everything would be “perfect” during it and it did not turn out that way?

Your answer:

Yes, but that has nothing to do with escaping the "Real World". Thats all to do with expectations, and swapping one stress for another

Again, you confirmed my side of the debate, due to your one word: “expectations”! Aren’t “expectations” still a created thought and illusion of our minds? It doesn’t matter if it is just a vacation or new way of life…it is still an “expectation”, which hits reality, when the actual physical occurrence happens.
Again, you gave me a bonus in your answer,

swapping one stress for another.
So you swapped one stress for another on vacation? Isn’t a vacation supposed to be none stressful? Isn’t that why we take vacations? Personally, I have never dreamed of a “stressful” vacation, all the vacations I create in my mind and my “expectations” ahead of time, are fun, carefree, and none stressful vacations.

Now, lets say, research is done for months and months ahead of time on a particular way of living…that has been created in the mind as a completely awesome, none stressful way of living.

Lets pretend…parents, want to get away from all the stresses of life…they decide the way to do it, will be to live on a sailboat .. to sail around the world, with their kids. Even though none of them had ever stepped foot on a sailboat before and were not a tight family unit, but moving into a completely new way of life…would make everything absolutely perfect! The images, illusions, and dreams in the minds of the family – discounted any - nor would let “any reality” of what reality was and could be with moving. Let’s keep pretending,..the family (oh, let’s just say there is 6 people in the family, 4 teenaged girls and the 2 parents) decide to sell everything they own and move from a 4000 square foot house to a sailboat. Let’s keep this pretend scenario going….let’s say the father went down to the British Virgin Islands and bought a sailboat for his family that was 48 feet long. The girls having no concept about the true size of a 48 foot sailboat… have the illusions, expectations, and dreams of still having their own space and think with the new move, any abuses from the father will be history and no more.

I ONLY one question for you Neformore:
Question 1 - With the above pretend scenario..do you think that sounds like a wonderful stress free situation, or do you think that the family, may just trade a set of realities for another completely and possibly more stressful set of realities, by having only illusions built up?



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 08:02 AM
link   
In the main part of this, the third part of my debate posts, I'll explain how living a life outside "the Real World" can be rewarding and fulfilling, but first I need to backtrack a little, and discuss Questionall's last points

Rebuttal to Questioningall's last post

I'm not going to debate the semantics of how easy or not taking these steps are - indeed that is probably a good subject for another debate round, another time. I could have gone into massive detail about building shelters and purifying water supplies, but the debate here is "Escaping From The Real World And Living On One's Own (Jungle, Forest etc) Can Lead To A Rewarding Fulfilling Life" - not- "The detailed in's and outs of surving on your own" - indeed I don't think in our debate posts we'd have the time and character limit to cover each part of those things in such detail - and yes - I actually could describe each of them to you given the space to do so


I will say this however - living in the artificial cocoon we have made for ourselves, undertaking our peer pressured lives its easy to pass everything off as "difficult", because someone else will do it for you.

This overreliance on other people has very very dangerous pitfalls that aren't apparent to 99% of people as long as the things they take for granted keep running. When they stop its a different matter.

If the water stops running, if the power goes off, if the fuel supplies stop, then chaos soon follows. That is the 900lb gorilla sitting in the corner waiting to jump on modern civilisation.

One of the problems our society faces as a whole is collective lack of responsiblity. Saying "thats hard" and walking away isn't really an option. Yes its hard. Only by undertaking such actions and doing them can they become easy.

Our ancestors knew that - its how we came to be where we are now. If they'd said "its hard" - where would we be living right now?

Similarly - to repond to your other tack, this is - ultimately - a personal decision. Its not something anyone should ever take lightly. Its most certainly not something that a family could do without assessing the hugely serious implications for all of the people involved. That having been said, should the decision be made there is no reason why the whole family cannot be involved in the processes involved in undertaking the lifestyle.

Again though, "Escaping From The Real World And Living On One's Own (Jungle, Forest etc) Can Lead To A Rewarding Fulfilling Life" is the topic here. Had it been "social responsibilities to families 101", then you'd have a point. In the context of this debate, sidetracking to such issues is getting away from the point.

As for my answer to your question - you replied with this;



Isn’t a vacation supposed to be none stressful? Isn’t that why we take vacations? Personally, I have never dreamed of a “stressful” vacation, all the vacations I create in my mind and my “expectations” ahead of time, are fun, carefree, and none stressful vacations.


Stress free? Really? All you are doing is swapping one artifical bubble for another.

Organising, booking tickets, findig a place to stay? Packing up enough stuff for however long you want to go - folding it, sorting it, packing it, making arrangements to move it.

Making sure that someone watches your house when you're gone, getting on a plane, flying half way around the world to somewhere that is unfamilar, and where you may not speak the language and don't understand the currency, living in someone elses accomodation, watching the tan doesn't get too serious - for two weeks, the last few days of which you'll be looking at the clock and calendar trying to figure out how long you have left before you have to go back to the 9-5.

And then you have to move everything again to get back home.

Artifical holiday, in an artifical life, dictated by society. Swapping one stress for another.

Says it all really.

end of rebuttal

Moving swiftly on.....

You've done your research. Picked your spot. Built your shelter/habitat out of those things that are readily available to you. What next?

Living - thats what.

Living simply. Living by your own decisions and hard work and judgement.

How is that rewarding and fulfilling?

Well basically, its because - suddenly - after years of interdependency, peer pressure, soceital norms and trends and demands, you are your own boss in so many more ways.

You eat when you want to. Furthermore you catch/prepare and cook your own food. No sanctioned lunch breaks there. All your food, prepared your way.

You sleep when you want to. No alarm clocks. No rush hour.

You have time to think. No phones. No TV, no distractions beyond those of your own making.

You are away from the hustle and bustle. No artifical rushing around reaching to meet someone elses deadline.

How much more rewarding is it knowing that you actually are master of your own destiny?

I'd wager that most people would want to be in that position. In the artifical "Real world" that most certainly isn't possible. You always have to pay the piper one way or another. Even those who are mega rich, or famous, or both, all pay the taxman, all have to face their societal responsibilites.

Remember when you were a child, and summer seemed to last forever? Hours seemed like days? Time stretched out before you because you didn't have to worry about deadlines, and clocks, and paying the bills. All you had to concentrate on was your own existence, and enjoying it for what it was.

That is the key here.

And how much more rewarding can life be, than living in a place you choose, in a home you built, working to your own timetable, free from outside interference?

What you want, when you want, anytime, all the time.

You can't buy that.

You just have to do it.

And when you do, the personal benefits are huge.

Answer to Questioningall's socratic question



Question 1 - With the above pretend scenario..do you think that sounds like a wonderful stress free situation, or do you think that the family, may just trade a set of realities for another completely and possibly more stressful set of realities, by having only illusions built up?


I think it would be a crassly irresponsible thing to do, as the parents made the decision without consulting with the whole family, asking for input from them, and explaining the realities of the situation to them. In that given scenario, I'd say that they were heading for disaster.

Socratic question for Questioningall

1. In the life of a working person in the modern world, how much of life (percentage wise) do you believe is spent solely on themselves, given that they are working 9-5 Monday to Friday.

_______

Back to you.



posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 06:45 AM
link   
I completely agree it can be a rewarding life, to live off the land… but the point is, living off the land is just one type of escape, which will still have a “reality” that can even be harsher than the lives we may lead now.

As much as we would like to “dream” that it would be a ‘simple’ life, by living off the land, compared to living in the 9 to 5 grind, land living can be much more perilous than 9 to 5 living.

Each of us, could make the trade off from one life to another, but realities are realities.

I will state again, I have the burning desire to simplify my life and “live” without worrying about everything going on – day to day. The amount of stress, everyone in the world is feeling and adding weight to our shoulders and mind is tremendous. I want to escape this world, as I don’t like this world right now….I bet most people don’t, no matter where we live. Those who are in big cities, may have a more terrible “reality” blast than those who live in individual houses with a little land.

What is funny about the whole “reality” thing, is we (in the U.S. anyway) have been conditioned to “want more”..the biggest and best T.V, car, appliances, houses, the list goes on and on. I too got stuck in the viscous cycle. I wanted all those things, due to I lived without them for so many years, including almost a year on land without electricity. The hardships incurred are numerous and would even say – much harder than a typical society suburban living.

This debate has been about “escaping reality” – as I look – there is one fact, no matter where anyone lives, there is no escaping the reality our world is in meltdown mode. With that fact, I think each and everyone of us, want to “escape” the meltdown. The feeling of urgency…is upon many of us, what do we do, where do we go, and how do we prepare? With those feelings, come the urgency to leave it all behind, go somewhere, where we will not be affected by what is occurring.

So, since we are where we are, we may each have property, which is not so easy to get rid of anymore. We know, there is NO escaping to anywhere, that does not have some form of challenges or stress. A truth of life, is challenges and working through those, and at the end hopefully coming out a better person.

Neformore, I understand where you are going on your side, I understand the stresses felt and the simmering panic felt with everybody’s world being turned upside down. I just like everyone else, want to run and hide and not be affected by it. I like everybody else, would love to be better prepared by being independent of outside needs.



I will say this however - living in the artificial cocoon we have made for ourselves, undertaking our peer pressured lives its easy to pass everything off as "difficult", because someone else will do it for you.

This overreliance on other people has very very dangerous pitfalls that aren't apparent to 99% of people as long as the things they take for granted keep running. When they stop its a different matter.

If the water stops running, if the power goes off, if the fuel supplies stop, then chaos soon follows. That is the 900lb gorilla sitting in the corner waiting to jump on modern civilisation.


The above you wrote in your last post, is saying all people’s reality right now (as I read it) is if you live in an area of society, then you expect others to do things for you, instead of you doing them yourself. That may be some people’s reality, but I don’t think that is the reality for most people that have social encounters everyday.

Just as people who live in a big city, their reality is different than those who live in a suburb. The people who live in cities, are very used to having everything at their finger tips, and if there is an short circuit to those conveniences they are used to, reality may become dangerous for them. The suburbanites may have it easier if they have prepared.

Facts are facts, we individually have our own “reality”, with that realities also change constantly. But the most basic fact is……. We can not escape – (as I stated in another post) – we would simply change one reality for another. The new one, can even be more dangerous than the one we were “escaping” from.


You eat when you want to. Furthermore you catch/prepare and cook your own food. No sanctioned lunch breaks there. All your food, prepared your way.

You sleep when you want to. No alarm clocks. No rush hour.

You have time to think. No phones. No TV, no distractions beyond those of your own making.

You are away from the hustle and bustle. No artifical rushing around reaching to meet someone elses deadline.

How much more rewarding is it knowing that you actually are master of your own destiny?
Remember when you were a child, and summer seemed to last forever? Hours seemed like days? Time stretched out before you because you didn't have to worry about deadlines, and clocks, and paying the bills. All you had to concentrate on was your own existence, and enjoying it for what it was.

That is the key here.

And how much more rewarding can life be, than living in a place you choose, in a home you built, working to your own timetable, free from outside interference?

What you want, when you want, anytime, all the time.


Believe me, Neformore…. I really really wish that I could come to your side of the debate…. There is nothing I would love more….and as painful and truthful as it is….. I can not.

What you have mentioned above, I hate to tell you, is a “fantasy”! That life does NOT EXIST! As a kid, we did get to have fun and play around and concentrate on our “own existence”, because we didn’t have to do anything for “surviving” the existence.

Almost everything, in your quote above is NOT reality, nor would it ever be for any adult, wanting to get away from the “real world”. Even for a kid, life would get more difficult and tough, trying to live off the land.

Regarding eating and so on above. Correct, no one would tell you when to eat…but the thing about that is, you may die before you are able to eat. It would be a tedious task, to have to get your own food, every single day to survive. The hours of the day, may not be filled with “others telling you what to do”, it would instead be days filled with constantly doing things just to “survive” that day. That does not sound like a “perfect life” to me, nor an escape from reality. It would be a “much harsher reality” than one being lived now.


The overall theme I found in your last posting, was the need for people to simplify their life as it is now. That is something we should all do! Understanding, there is no where to “escape reality”, we thus can make our own reality easier by ridding ourselves of all those things we have added weight to ourselves with.

From that basic truth, if we want to make life easier and better prepare ourselves for the future, then we can take steps, RIGHT NOW in our lives as they exist to make it less stressful.

I am not going to be presumptuous to try say what each person needs to do, that is for every individual to look around and figure out themselves. “What – will make my life less stressful, right now and for the future?”

I can tell you, that due to my previous “fantasizes” of what I thought would make me happy and be “part of society”, was to accumulate material possessions. Those possessions, including having the “nice big home” has now weighted me down as an anchor. Getting rid of those excess things, would take a big weight off my shoulders. Silly me, though, did not listen to myself a couple of years ago, when I kept thinking “get rid of everything”.

I say, all of that, due to the point, if we dig deep down, we know we can not “escape reality” but we can make it a “better reality” than what it is right now. Running away to the other side of the world, is not going to do it, but taking steps right now, can make our own realities less harsh in the future.



Socratic question for Questioningall

1. In the life of a working person in the modern world, how much of life (percentage wise) do you believe is spent solely on themselves, given that they are working 9-5 Monday to Friday.


Neformore, I honestly can not answer that, everyone’s life and job, is totally different from another person’s. Some have kids, some do not, some hate their job, some do not, the list goes on and on. On a whole, our lives in the way our society is now structured has been more about the grind of living. Since everyone's reality is completely different than the next persons, I can not even hazard a guess to your question.


With that in mind, we can all sit down and think very hard, about what we need or don’t need right now, this moment. Upon that theme, we then start trading those don’t needs, more for the needs now.

Our lives, have evolved around outside influences to “what we are suppose to be and have”, to be part of the “modern society”. Well, take that “reality” out of your mind, decide how you can make your “reality” different right now, where you are.

We can change our realities where we are, by taking what may be difficult steps, but the long and short……. We can NOT escape reality, by running away.

I do not have any questions for you Neformore, as I know our last “closing statement” post is next, and I did not want you to have to take space, by answering any questions.

Once again, Neformore…. The ball, made it over the net and is on your side – also, Good luck with your “closing post”. I look forward to reading it and I want to say, what a pleasure it has been, doing this with you.



posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 12:29 PM
link   
So here we are, at the end of a very well thought out (in my opinion!) and very well contested debate.

I'd like to thank Questioning for her time in taking part, the debate judges for assessing our contributions and everyone who reads this debate and invests time in reading our opinions. Its been thoroughly enjoyable.

And now its time for this....

My closing statement

Over her posts Questioningall has set out her argument that escaping from the real world is impossible in a commendable manner, and I'd like to thank her for the thought provoking way she has put her points across.

That being said, she did make a prediction that, by the end of the debate, I would see things her way.

But sadly I don't.

Questioning's argument boils down to this - you take the world with you wherever you go, and therefore you can't escape the real world.

My counter to that has been, and remains, that people respond to the surroundings that they find themselves in.

Being a "wage slave" - working to live instead of living to work - is the ultimate way of destroying your spirit.

Yes, people can kid themselves that they have free time to relax, but even that free time is "on the clock". Be it the evening, the weekend or a holiday, the simple fact is that when the time runs out its back to the grindstone, and, as the average adult is likely to be employed between the age of 18 to 65, its a sad fact that most of your adult life is going to be spent at someone elses beck and call.

Ultimately, that isn't fulfilling or rewarding. Its why so many people feel "empty".

The emptyness is masked by items deemed desirable by the same society that dictates the 9-5 ethos. The result is a self sustained "eco system" where the mega rich stay mega rich, and the rest of the world knows its role, and shuts its mouth. (copyright there goes to The Rock, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind!)

As living, breathing, intelligent creatures, we are not designed to be couped up in artifical environments.

We are free spirited, free thinking and hardy, and this is where fulfilment and reward lies, because only by taking control of our own destiny can we ever be truly satisfied that we've done everything we could for ourselves.

This then, is the benefit of living a simpler life "away from it all".

And its entirely possible to do it.

Its not easy, thats for sure, but then nothing really worthwhile in life ever is.

Taking the chances, making the hard decisions, and overcoming the odds - thats where true fulfilment lies. The reward comes from knowing that you did it, on your own.

It doesn't have to be in a jungle or the outback, or some other extreme location - it can be anywhere with land to live off. All it needs to be is somewhere that your time is your own, and you are master of your own destiny

Thank you for reading.



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 08:07 AM
link   
Neformore, it has been a pleasure debating you, thank you for agreeing to debating me and again, I am glad we both got to debate each other: as first timers. I like the fact, we are finishing too, so no more bartending, though that was fun. Semperfortis, thank you for moderating our debate and judges, thank you for taking your time in reading our posts.

Now, regarding our “Escaping Reality/Real World.

I have said over and over, we simply trade one world for another. Believe me, if there was an “easier” world and one I could have totally “escaped” to, I would have done that already.

Neformore, I have felt your stress in your postings, I understand the burning desire within yourself to release them in your life. In reading your post, they have been about our current stresses and how much better life would be, freeing ourselves from them. That is a point I completely agree with you on. But, I did not get from you, how “escaping” our current situation would make our lives better, by moving away. I believe I have shown, by moving anywhere in the world and escaping reality is not possible, there is no escape, there is no “easy” reality. We can trade off, our current society living, intermingling with others to live an isolated “survival” type living, which could be more dire than our current one. An isolated life, could actually cause death, if not fully prepared, besides that type of life would be living with the “stress” of survival everyday.


Every single type of life out there, has it’s own stress and realities, some more perilous and dangerous than others, some more of a daily grind of 9 to 5 and working from pay check to pay check. We make choices with what life we want, the problem has been, many of us have gotten wound up and tied up in our choice and think, maybe, there would have been a better one than the path we have followed.

Our minds can create a “knowing and fantasy” there is a better more simple life out there, compared to the one we are living now. But, the problem is, it is just our “minds” doing that, which then can cause us to dislike our current lives even more.

Stresses are where ever we all go, there is no “escaping” those. We have millions of choices in life, we can chose to live the life that is created as one, where we need to have the “best and latest of everything” to keep up with the “Jones”, or one we live our lives more simply.

To totally leave everything behind, seems so wonderful, and I can’t tell you how many times in my life, people have said, “How much, they would love to live some of the life I have”. “It sounds so wonderful, living on a sailboat, and then living down in the Caribbean on an island”. Yes, it “sounds” awesome and magical, but it can be more trying and more stressful than lives left behind. As a side note: I honestly would not trade my life with anyone else, my time when I was a teenager on a sailboat was the “best time and the worst time of my life. But, I saw what it did to my parents, who had fantasized the complete most wonderful, stress free life in the world. I can attest, those fantasies immediately had “cold water” poured on them upon our first steps of a “new life”. The fact IS, escaping a current life, can bring more pressure and stress, and in fact cause the mind to go haywire. Another note about that, due to the fantasies not living up to our father’s mind imaginations, he jumped ship two weeks after we made the move, as hurricanes were hitting, leaving us girls and our mother, not knowing a single thing about what to do. I say that, but I will also say, us women survived and eventually thrived – but it was never at any time the “life imagined” beforehand, we had many life and death situations. It was a completely different reality than the fantasies and definitely different than our “normal” lives left behind in the states.

If you think about it……In planning to escape our current lives we will have conditioned our minds through our imagining that we are about to live the “most wonderful life” ever. We will have spent hours and hours, imagining and fantasying how absolutely “perfect” the new life would be without stress. By programming our mind that the new life was going to be magical, once the new life is started and it is not the “magical” nor living up to the fantasies built up in our minds, it then can cause our minds to go into a whirlwind and freak out. It doesn’t matter if the fantasy is about living off the land, sailing, jungle living, or anything, no new life can live up to what we imagine it to be.

I proved in my second posting – excluding the opening, the fact from a website – that farmers have a tremendous amount of stress, living in a jungle – would create very perilous situations.

Though Neformore, stated how “easy” upon research of a certain type of living, how then if can “just be done” upon arrival of that new living. As much as we would all like to believe a “new life” could be that easy and accomplished that fast, the reality is it would not be.

I have written over and over how reality follows in this debate and how reality can become more stressful, by living a new life, especially if fantasies were built up in our minds about it. I will not belabor that fact anymore. I feel I have provided the facts needed for my side, in my previous postings.

I will state, our realities can change as they exist right now. We can take steps to make our lives easier and simpler, I also believe that is something we all do need to do right now too. I believe the whole world has entered an unprecedented time, which is scary for us all. But I don’t believe we can “magically” escape and run away from it.

We each need to take a serious look at our lives through a microscope and figure out, how we can make our lives easier and in doing that, not worry about what anyone else thinks. That is what I got from your postings over and over again Neformore. I understood, getting off reliance of the “electronic bubble, grocery stores, and living more off the land, is where your dream and focus is on. Yes, that would be good for all of us, except, the “electronic bubble” has afforded me to learn more about things, and how to live more independently. I have used the “electronic bubble” to my advantage, of survival in the future, if things go completely south.

I personally have – as I stated before, researched and researched where I could go, and escape the world. I had considered moving back on a sailboat, but I know – how hard in “reality” that life can be. There are many things people don’t think about, when doing that either….. pirates, believe it or not, pirates will still take over sailboats etc, killing everyone on board – to then use the boat as a smuggling vessel for drugs. That is one thing, people in their “fantasies of sailboat living, would never even conceive to think about, when dreaming up that way of life. We did not have that happen obviously, but we know of others who did have that happen to.

The dream of escape is a wonderful dream, and the sad point it is only “just” that a dream.

But, knowing we can not “escape the real world”, then we just have to use our mind to better live the current real world we are in, so the stress of it, does not take us over the edge.

Though I have a hard time explaining myself and am not eloquent in my writings, I hope I have gotten my points across and understood.

Why did I want to do the debate on this subject? I will admit, I have been dealing with the absolute and complete burning desire to run away…..to escape the “real world”. I have spent hours, days, and weeks trying to figure out – exactly how to do it. Due to my having “escaped” before, I have gone through the “real” world scenarios and acknowledged within myself, I would simply do a trade off. That does not mean the feelings are not still strong and overwhelming within myself, but instead of trying to run away, it is now organizing my life to be as prepared as possible for the future which lays ahead.

Maybe, just maybe, if others have been having the burning desire to also leave everything behind to live in a “fantasy” world, they will have read this, and have been able to look at “realities” of a new world honestly in their minds. They may still make a jump to a new world, but with more of an understanding, that new world could/would still have it’s own stresses, challenges and difficulties.

I really wish there was an escape for all of us from the "real world and reality".............life would be sooooo perfect then……………..BUT I would have already been there, waiting for everyone else to arrive!



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 09:30 AM
link   
Now it is all up to the Judges ...

Semper



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 04:53 PM
link   
Two of the Judgments are in folks, and that will do it.


Debate: Neformore vs questioningall : "The Great Escape, Good Idea or Bad?"

This was an interesting debate and I congratulate each Fighter on an impressive debut.

Nefermore started kind of iffy as he demonizes modern society as the cause of laziness and excees...and coining the term (for the purpose of the debate) Artificial Stress. Truth be told, stress is stress and dressing it up as somehow less than stress by virtue of the cause, whatever it may be, is not a valid distinction.

Questioningall kind of refutes this point by accurately pointing out that how one deals with the environment one is in creates the spectrum of human experience by virtue of unique obstacles (she makes no mention of the rewards; understandably so) that will inherently produce stress.

So the point of stress in either an escaped reality or modern societies reality is kind of a toss up; surprisingly so.

Which leads us to the main theme of the debate and that is can an escaped reality be rewarding?

Questioningall takes the position that whereever one is, that is the real world, that the real world is reality itself and the only escape is a short term one as practiced by one's expectations and fantasies.

But nefermore contends that the structured pace of modern society is in fact completely different from taking on an independent lifestyle. In the end, I have to side with nefermore's presentation as the case he made was far more compelling.

Questioningall did a decent job of rebuttal but fell apart in her second rebuttal where she seemed to out right mock nefermore's position - ultimately not really making any compelling refutation.

She also made a huge mistake at the beginning of her third rebuttal.


I completely agree it can be a rewarding life, to live off the land… but the point is, living off the land is just one type of escape,




The debate title is "Escaping From The Real World And Living On One's Own (Jungle, Forest etc) Can Lead To A Rewarding Fulfilling Life".

She actually is on record agreeing with her opponent's side, despite the rest of the statement "which will still have a "reality" that can even be harsher than the lives we may lead now."

How can a rewarding life, that she admits to being an escape, be harsher?

Indeed there is a viable answer but questioningall assumes that escape necessarily translates into 'simpler lifestyle' which is incorrect.

Again, a great debate by both but in the end I have to decide in favor of nefermore.



In this Forum its been rare that both sides of the debate are skilled writers able to inspire the readers imagination with descriptiveness. This debate was pleasing to read.

Another noteworthy point is how both debaters took the opponents points as a CONFIRMATION of theirs rather than a rebuttal. This made me laugh out loud a few times.

My own fantasys of being a character in the movie series "Lost" came to an abrupt halt when questioningall featured the picture of a back skinned with bug bites. A clever debate move.

I think questioningall is correct in saying that reality follows you...no matter where you go. She is also correct in stating that simplifying ones own life...without going back to a life of seclusion in the jungle, can improve things.

Neformore is correct and convincing in pointing out how unfulfilling the 9-to-5 treadmill with all its artificial stimuli really is.

So who actually wins this Debate? Having read the debate twice, at this point I am not sure at all. In fact, Im inspired to combine both lifestyles: Moving out into the country to lead a life more simple, but still have internet access.

So in order to determine a debate winner, lets look at the Debate title once more.

The Debate Topic was not "to lead an easier life" but to lead a more FULFILLING life. I do wish the Debaters had practiced more discernment on that. Nevertheless neformore focussed on this aspect just a little bit more than questioningall by pointing out that "going away" makes one more responsible and stronger.
And that is certainly fullfilling. By mid-debate questioningall had taken the lead. This lead was lost by the end of the debate because she kept repeating the same points rather than adapting her strategy to neformores new points.

Neformore wins this debate in a very, very slim lead.

I nevertheless hope to read more of questioningall in this Forum.


It's Neformore as the Winner..

Congratulations to both Fighters!!!!!

Excellent Debate

Semper



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 05:04 PM
link   
Thank you judges and Neformore - CONGRATULATIONS!!

It was a good learner experience and you did an excellent job - which kept me on my toes - in which I obviously tipped over.

A well deserved victory for you - Great Job!



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 05:08 PM
link   
I enjoyed reading this one. Good job you two



posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 12:56 PM
link   
Wow....quite how I missed this yesterday I have no idea.

I am a humble winner. Questioningall put up a very good debate and deserves equal plaudits IMHO - I will raise a glass in her honour later.

Thank you judges for taking the time to read the points raised, and for awarding me the decision - it really was a pleasure





new topics




 
16

log in

join