Defense: BART Shooting Cop Meant To Use Taser

Here is a fun video that demonstrates 'Pepper Pellets' and a Taser being used effectively.
The suspect starts out with nunchaku in is hands, then drops them to show off some karate moves. The officers move in and shoot him with pepper pellets. As the suspect runs into the croud of officers and attacks, what is not easy to see, but they do Taser him when he is near the cars and he falls to the ground. At no time did the officers overreact to this obviously violent individual.
Ninja Vs. Cops
This video shows proper restraint in the face of a very violent individual. It is quite a contrast to the mild actions of the BART victim.

There are two other versions of this video that are even better as one has the song "Kung Fu Fighting" over dubbed and the other is to a Wu Tang Clan song.

[edit on 31/1/09 by Terapin]

Originally posted by Agent877
This entire event has turned into a political platform for all of the local “cop-hater” groups to get their 15 minutes of fame and for the local politicians to secure their future elections. Three million dollars bail is WAY extreme for one count of manslaughter, ESPECIALLY considering the amount of ties this officer has to the area. As already stated, the only reason he was in Nevada was to protect himself and his family from the numerous credible threats on their lives. Hell, last night on the news they threatened that if the justice system did not properly punish him…”they” (the fine citizens of Oakland) would. I spoke with over a dozen of the areas “finest” last night who are hoping things go from bad to worse so they can get out their guns and shoot it out with the police.

The judge in this case should be demoted to running small claims court and a Judge Judy style TV show for eternity. There is no room for bowing to political pressure in the court room. I can pull the bails for over half the accused murder suspects in Alameda County and they are less than 3 million. I know of folks with multiple murder counts AND prior gang ties who have less bails than Officer Mehserle. This is a shame and mockery of the judicial system.

My thoughts and prayers are with Officer Mehserle and his family for the injustice they are enduring to appease a group of people who have no respect for the laws of this land, themselves or anyone else.


[edit on 31-1-2009 by Agent877]

You joined ATS to express yourself in favor of Mehserle?

Are you willing to say which PD you work for or if your last name happens to be Mehserle?

I'm sorry but there's video evidence of a cop shooting an unarmed, handcuffed man in his back while he lay face down, resulting in death. You can't seriously expect people to be sympathetic. You can't seriously expect people to not be outraged.

I, too, am sickened by the large groups of people who are using this incident to riot and act out their own personal rage... I'm sickened by people both black, white and everything in between crying about the racial implications... But this is a tragedy, and all of these incidents are the domino effect of it.

Originally posted by alyosha1981
(1st) they shluld definatly move the trial out of the area( way out ) because the man will not get a fair trial if they don't. I'll use this thread as an example and contained all herin, who sugguest the former officer's a cold blooded murderer. Stop and think for a moment about the position he was in, I'll tell you right now he would have been justified to deploy his taser so for the sake of disscussion imagine yourself in his shoes. How many of you actually carry? (i see a show of hands) now how many of you actually have had to use (legally) physical force to restrain an induvidual?

Does the fact that the officer a "rookie" only carried the taser for a few shifts before the incident? and that quite possibly, in the heat of the moment, all factors considered ( adrenaline, suspects actions ect ect) that he did in fact attempt to use the taser, but out of training and instinct deployed his firearm instead? Now I'll tell you, yes you the "armchair quarterback" that has never done this kind of work that during a takedown especially one that is becoming violent, time and focus go out the window and your training "kicks in" now with that said considder the amount of training recieved in firearms compared with the 6 hour training in the use of the taser.

IMO, the former officer reacted to a threat ( perception is reality) and acted upon his level of training resulting in a tragic accident not murder not manslaughter. I'd be happy to debate on this one as I see the ignorance on this subject abounds on this thread, any other law enforcement officers want to come forward and voice some opinions?

[edit on 31-1-2009 by alyosha1981]

Where are YOU on the job at?!?... My old man is a retired officer and I was a Corrections Officer at my local sheriff's department for three years. Our S/O , and C/O titles are misleading. We all went to the same Academy and recieved the same training except C/O's never took their "title 39" classes so I couldn't write tickets. (didn't want to anyway) I worked in the jail where there are NO weapons and direct supervision. (You hands on with the inmates) So I know how to "restrain" and "takedown" people that don't care if they get anymore time because they will not outlive thier current sentences anyway. I've also worked gang unit details and warrant executions. I assume you're a LEO somewhere but the way you describe an arrest situation it's as if it's something you've seen off of "COPS". I'm sure in the academy you were taught command presence and control presence , as well as escalation of force and threat assesment , lethal and non lethal use of force so check out this scenario

Before you even contemplate shooting someone, certain fundemental factors must be there.

Your attacker must have the ability—the physical, practical ability—to cause you , your partner or others harm. There also has to be "OPPORTUNITY". The attacker may have the ABILITY to do you harm but it means nothing if he doesn't have the OPPORTUNITY to do so Right Here and Right Now. You have RANGE and PROXIMITY as well , a man with a knife at 300 yards can do you no harm , a man with a knife at 10 yards still cant reach you with his knife but has the OPPORTUNITY to kill you , a common police standard is to assume that a knife-wielding assailant is capable of covering 21 feet and striking with the blade in 1.5 seconds. Last but not least you would have JEOPARDY. Would a "reasonable and prudent" person have believed himself to be in immediate danger. In other words JEOPARDY is what distinguishes between a potentially dangerous situation and one that is actually dangerous. Hundreds of times every day, you walk by people who could punch or stab or shoot you. The reason you aren’t “defending” yourself against them is because you have no reason to think that they are actually about to attack you. (Why would they?). So basically

1.The threat must be current, immediate, and unavoidable.
2.Your level of force must be appropriate to the threat.
3.Your use of force must stop when the threat ceases.

NOW if you can show me where ANY of the above situations occured , I would love to continue this debate with you. I think its fairly obvious to see that these are the actions of someone that CLEARLY shouldn't have been on the job. As far as him mistaking his pistol for the taser , thats just plain WEAK. Most departments carry the taser weak side and from what I'm reading he never even had it on his person during the shoot. I can tell you that I've worn a glock on my side for countless hours and I know the feeling of it as well as I know the feeling of my.... well you know. There is no way in hell on G-D's green earth under ANY circumstance would I EVER confuse it for a taser. It's a bad shoot , plain and simple. Unless he got on the job because he had some sort of juice (Which I doubt because he's a BART cop) He'll get burried.

BART POLICE Requirements

Originally posted by bizone


I'm sorry but there's video evidence of a cop shooting an unarmed, handcuffed man in his back while he lay face down, resulting in death. You can't seriously expect people to be sympathetic. You can't seriously expect people to not be outraged.

For one the officer who shoots draws his weapon and fires it single handedly without taking a shoulder stance. You do that with a taser, not a real gun. Also immediately prior to firing the gun other police who were holding the suspect down jumped away suddenly. This would lead me to believe that not only the shooter, but other officers were assuming that he was using a taser as you don't get recoil from a taser, and other officers wouldn't want to get lit up when the prongs hit.

Also immediately after he fires the police all turn and look, and one officer even walks up to the shooter and shoves him showing a clear non-verbal sign of "what the hell did you do that for". Also a little while afterwards the officer puts his hands to his head as if he's freaking out.

Lastly, all the other officers there and even some civilian witnesses have testified that the shooter told everyone he was going to use his taser, prior to him accidentally drawing his real gun and shooting.

It's sorta open and shut as to what happened here.


[edit on 31-1-2009 by Agent877]

Originally posted by googolplex
I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but if this cop has used taser would he not also tased fellow officer?

Aside from the conduction also mentioned he also would run the risk of one of that taser barbs hitting the other cop.

I saw a video of this just a little bit ago. A guy went nuts in a courtroom. Some officers tackle him but he's still struggling. One officer gets off him, steps back, draws his taser and...ZAP!

The guy and another officer are both now rolling around on the floor screaming in pain. The cop with the taser is looking like "Uh-Oh, What now?"

Originally posted by Agent877

Originally posted by bizone


I'm sorry but there's video evidence of a cop shooting an unarmed, handcuffed man in his back while he lay face down, resulting in death. You can't seriously expect people to be sympathetic. You can't seriously expect people to not be outraged.

For one the officer who shoots draws his weapon and fires it single handedly without taking a shoulder stance. Also immediately prior to firing the gun other police who were holding the suspect down jumped away suddenly. This would lead me to believe that not only the shooter, but other officers were assuming that he was using a taser as you don't get recoil from a taser, and other officers wouldn't want to get lit up when the prongs hit.

Also immediately after he fires the police all turn and look, and one officer even walks up to the shooter and shoves him showing a clear non-verbal sign of "what the hell did you do that for". Also a little while afterwards the officer puts his hands to his head as if he's freaking out.

It's sorta open and shut as to what happened here.

Yes, he drew his GUN. To draw his gun, he drew it from his right side and released it from a locked holster. To pull the trigger, he held the unmistakable, heavy, metal gun and squeezed very firmly to release the bullet from the chamber.

I'm not trained, but I've fired guns and tasers. Pretty much night and day between those two objects.

What's worse is that even though his defense is, "I was reaching for my taser", it seems that he was not carrying one. On top of that, his reason for getting his taser out was because he thought Grant "was going for a gun". Well, if you have a suspect that you feel is going for his gun, why would you pull out a taser?

The Judge has commented to the ridiculousness of this all and that's why you have a $3,000,000 bail. That and because of the fact he was a police officer. That is, someone who is supposed to be held to a higher standard and uphold the law.

As for the police jumping away. Well, for one, they only jump a split second before the shot is fired, not while Mehserle is reaching for his weapon. Seems to me they didn't get any warning.

Mehserle's reaction after the shooting can easily be conveyed as, "Oh ****, how am I going to get away with this", just as easily as the conclusion you've come to.

reply to post by bizone


No.

Originally posted by Agent877

Lastly, all the other officers there and even some civilian witnesses have testified that the shooter told everyone he was going to use his taser, prior to him accidentally drawing his real gun and shooting.

[edit on 31-1-2009 by Agent877]

I haven't read any news pertaining what the civilian witnesses have said. I have read that there have been police officers who have testified that Mehserle warned of Taser use, but that doesn't surprise me. It's a part of the "Blue Shield". Same reason why BART police Chief Gary Gee has apparently encouraged officers to give Mehserle money and books and visit him while he is in jail.

Read about that here: www.insidebayarea.com...

Originally posted by Agent877

For one the officer who shoots draws his weapon and fires it single handedly without taking a shoulder stance. You do that with a taser, not a real gun. Also immediately prior to firing the gun other police who were holding the suspect down jumped away suddenly. This would lead me to believe that not only the shooter, but other officers were assuming that he was using a taser as you don't get recoil from a taser, and other officers wouldn't want to get lit up when the prongs hit.

Also immediately after he fires the police all turn and look, and one officer even walks up to the shooter and shoves him showing a clear non-verbal sign of "what the hell did you do that for". Also a little while afterwards the officer puts his hands to his head as if he's freaking out.

Lastly, all the other officers there and even some civilian witnesses have testified that the shooter told everyone he was going to use his taser, prior to him accidentally drawing his real gun and shooting.

It's sorta open and shut as to what happened here.


[edit on 31-1-2009 by Agent877]

Ummm..actually no.

If you look closely at the video you'll see the officer went to a 2hand grip right before he fired.

Also, the ones say he said that he was going to use a taser are the officer that shot him, and the other officer (the one on Gran'ts neck).

Just so happens the other officer (the one supporting the shooter) is also under investigation for punching Grant out a little bit before the shooting as seen here..

You Tube - Officer Punching Grant

reply to post by Frogs


Well, all of you in support of the officers actions wanted to know what happened before the shooting, looks like the other tough guy cop punching Oscar in the face for at the very worst, mouthing off maybe....like I said, common trait.

reply to post by MegaCurious


I agree... I really hope they don't find this guy innocent... we'll have the L.A. Riots all over again. Stupid California Law Enforcement.

I have only 1 question: Where is the safety on the handgun compared to the taser?

Taser's safety is in a totally different position that the Sig Sauer's:
www.taser.com...
www.fairlawnpd.com...

Compare those two safety switches and tell me that when he grabbed his handgun that he wouldn't have noticed the difference. Both weapons have safety's with different positions and sizes. This guy knew what he was doing.

He just didn't know he was being video recorded.

reply to post by Frogs


"Just so happens the other officer (the one supporting the shooter) is also under investigation for punching Grant out a little bit before the shooting as seen here.."

I can already see what the police state apologists will be doing with that one; By the time it gets to court, poor Oscar Grant will be accused of 'Facebutting' the officers fist....

I agree very much so, it's hard to keep focus during an incident, let alone refuse training and the mistake part is true, unfortunatly the consences here apparently cops arn't alowed to make mistakes.

That's right. Even Steven. If I make a mistake and go the wrong way down a one way street I get a ticket plain and simple. I'm not allowed to make a mistake, your not allowed to make a mistake.

I find it so amazing that police are so conditioned, or like minded that they will defend other officers despite the insanity of the other officers actions.

This guy was no rookie at two years plus countless curriculum ride alongs and training scenarios to condition him to a typical beat down task such as this. If this guy was so poorly trained and on the job then at the very least the liability lies in all of his superiors and trainers. It defies logic that a job that puts the public at such risk only deserves an education and weeding out process that's shorter than practically any other professional curriculum. You want to know what makes a true defender of the people? Watch “300”. When it was decided that a Spartan would become a solder they were trained from childhood up. If they made the cut through all of that process only then were they deemed worthy. Cops these days are like cheap, shiny, Wal-Mart crap that typically breaks a week after you buy it. And yes I’m generalizing. If the few good apples that are apparently out there were truly good they would be doing something about the rest of them instead of arguing that only the middle of the taser was yellow.

The taser is only "bright yellow" in the middle, as stated in earlyer posts the mind is clouded during a confrontation, the victim here IMO is the former officer.

Maybe they should be made completely yellow so even a toddler or police officer can tell the difference. I won't recite the other posts that describe all of the other obvious differences.

This is why I call my friends instead of the police anymore.

Due to my hobby sadly I see police involved with illegal activities all the time. I’m also forced to face off with them all the time. I never loose because I know they always try and bully without legal grounds and you can just call them on it and remind them of the trouble they are getting themselves into. When they call for backup I know I’m doing a good job. There is nothing that gets my goat more than these psychos that think they (or their little club) are above the rest of society. If they want to hand out the "I’m your God crap" then I know I have another BART shooter type and so far I haven’t seen to many variants. Hopefully after I've reamed them out at least they will think twice before they approach the next person with that attitude and choice of skill set. Sound bitter? Try walking a day in my footsteps. The new age cop needs to go and the old school police need to come back.

Be prepared for a disappointing ruling. The saddest thing about this is that when he gets off it will become the default defense for any police officer that decides to murder someone.

By the way, the overwhelming response in this thread shows that ATS consists of intellects that don’t unconditionally accept an officer’s actions because he’s an officer. Star for all the intellects on this thread!!

reply to post by MegaCurious


whether or not he thought it was a pistol or taser, he should be hung in public, televised to the world.

If he genuinely thought he was pulling his taser, he still should be hung, because it is obvious that guy on the ground is not going to move a single inch with a friggin knee on his neck (which is ridiculous as well). Cops have been using their tasers more often then a fat kid eats cake these days.... so even if it was a taser, he should be hung, it is only by this kind of drastic action that cops will seriously consider whether or not to shoot 100,000 + Volts into someones body (which can kill).. stupid cops.

this guy should die.

Someone should tell the victims relatives that it's all ok now, because they figured it out, the killer didn't intend to shoot him in the back. He intended to taze him, but made a simple mistake and apparently that makes all the difference. Like for instance if a crane operator on a construction site mistakenly drops a load of steel on a person walking the street, how can you hold him accountable for his actions. I mean he didn't intend to kill someone, it was just his ineptitude which led to the tragedy. So it's OK...right, GIVE ME A BREAK!!

This cop is gonna walk. I mean, imagine you're on the jury. OK, maybe you don't buy the gun/taser mixup story, but then you're just left wondering WHY did he shoot that guy anyway? There's no motive. The cop has no reason to think he'll get away with it. The only way you can explain it is a mixup or some kind of temporary insanity. Even if you think the guy should be held responsible for his actions anyway, I would pretty much guarantee there will be at least one person on the jury who won't see it that way.

He's gonna walk and there's gonna be riots.

reply to post by Distractions4Nothing


You bring up a GREAT point. Not about the jury but you raise the most important question that NOONE here on ATS has answered yet. I mean 99% of you are saying it wasn't or couldn't be a mistake...so then please answer me this one question.

1. Why would the officer shoot an unarmed, handcuffed man in the back in public KNOWING he will be witnessed by damn near 100+ people AND co-workers? Please explain or give reason?

None of you answered this question...you just judged due to personal bias...now try using rational thought.


[edit on 2/1/2009 by rcwj75]

reply to post by alyosha1981

mistakes are one thing, but mistake when you wield a gun is totally different story.
you better be focused you can kill with the pull of the trigger
there is no saying sorry when the mistake ends in death

i have a cousin that is ATF he is kinda ramboish if you know what i mean

when you choose to wear a gun and everyone around you is not, its up to the cop to be aware of his every action wouldnt you agree?

from what i have seen i didnt see anything getting out of hand just people being sat down and questiond for what ?? what where they doing ? dose anyone here really know what the guy that got shot was actualy doing wrong?

or where they just being picked on and the subjects where acting in a manor that the cops didnt like ?

where they being picked for a good reason?

or did the thing start because of false pretence?
but whatever it was it was the cops job to keep cool its his job to he wields the gun he has the power from the very start

reply to post by tac109

Well said. As a former police officer (who is "former" because he killed a man he was pursuing by shooting him at close range, believing the man to be pointing a gun at him but which was not the case) told me, you have a split second to react to save your life. This incident messed him up psychologically, and he had to leave the force.

Obviously the BART situation was not such a split second, life or death situation. This reminded me of a similar incident I remember.
Another gun/taser mistake incident
Scroll down about halfway to "Officer won't face charges : Shooting of Madera man in police car is called an accident."