ECON: Surviving the greatest Depression of the 21st Century

i wonder what you'll do when the next generation of seeds won't germinate...

do youse have enough 'Heirloom' seeds (pre-GM seeds)
to sustain ourselves (for a guessed at minimum of 3 crops) until nature starts to correct the man made damage to the staple grains....
and start new strains of natural grains which are not resistant
to bugs, insects, drought & such.


Who is going to organize security to watchover the square-foot gardens?

night-time garden raiders will take the place of convience store thefts/robbery


bottom line... i'm not expecting a 21st century Depression...
I'm anticipating the total collapse of the financial system, and the resulting
collapse of social order into anarchy, chaos, entropy of civilization.


and that's the 'good news'

reply to post by Studio


Thanks SU, I realize that in the beginning there will be panic and raids, there will be a time of reckoning for the masses, a huge wake up call.

But after the storm there will be a time to pick up the pieces and move forward to rebuild what is left.

If you have the crazed idea in your mind that it will never correct itself, then you are driven by fear.

Let me tell you a story about my Grandpa back in the Depression:

Grandpa was a young good looking farm boy, he went out for the evening with some friends and late that night they decided that they were really hungry and wouldn't it be good to find some food.

Well Grandpa said why don't we go to my place and Ill get us a watermelon to eat.

It was a hot Midwest summer night and boy that did sound good to them.

Grandpa had his friends wait up the road and walked quietly into the patch and picked up a ripe watermelon and as he turned, there was a click click from the shadows of a big old walnut tree and his Dad stepped out shot gun in hand and said "Son, that you?" Grandpa wasted no time and said "yes Dad its me".

"What you doing there with that watermelon son?" "I'M just taking it to share with my friends Dad, were all real hungry" "OK son, share your Mellon then get on in the house." "OK Dad, and thanks." "You sure ones gonna be enough son?" And Grandpa walked back to his friends with two big mellons under his arms.

Yes you will have to have night watches, because it will be too much of a temptation to hungry people not to want what you have, but that is just human nature and to be expected. It does not mean you have to 'jump the gun' and go off half cocked at the shadows.


[edit on 30-1-2009 by antar]

Originally posted by antar
reply to post by cornblossom

 

What you describe is the reality of how civilized people respond to an emergency situation. And you do mention the fact that you are not living in a false reality in that you do not expect trouble if the bottom falls out of the dollar and commerce halts.

What is key in your post is the experience which you have in pulling together in crisis for the betterment beyond the small family.

You have already set the stage for cooperation among your neighbors. This does not mean that from now on it is expected or even desired, it does not mean that you have to become bosom buddies and help them pay their rent to make life easier from now on, no.

But what it has done is set the stage for responsibility on all the neighbors parts to see that they are a vital part of the concerted efforts to help in crisis.

The door has been opened and in your neighborhood people responed rather than reacted to the emergency. So follow up with a warm batch of chocolate chip cookies, just a few on a plate to thank those that you were able to help as well as those who helped you. Because in crisis it is always a balance of give and recieve.

Excellent addition to the thread, and I am glad to know you are safe and survived the icestorm.

That's a great idea to make cookies! I just used up all my eggs, but when we go to the grocery on Sunday night, I'll definitely get some and make some brownies and cookies. I love to bake sweets and breads, and that's one of the ways I thank people, so I will definitely take your advice!

I recently had a crisis in my family and had to leave town suddenly. Several people helped us, and when the crisis was over, I made loaves and loaves of oatmeal bread, chocolate covered pretzels, marshmallows, and nut clusters, and then I wrapped everything and gave them those gifts to say thank you.

Last night around midnight, my husband and I got our shovel and cleared a parking spot. Tonight we'll probably clear another one. Every little bit helps, and if everyone works together and does something, it can make life a little easier and less frustrating.

But you're right...I can't help people pay their rent when the chips are down, but there are little things that we all can do to help each other get through tough times and crises.

And that's a great idea you have about giving people seeds! I just got two catalogs in the mail that sell heirloom seeds. I'm going to buy some for me and my husband, but now I think I will also buy some to give as gifts. Thanks for that great idea!

A few people have mentioned they don't see neighbors helping. Yesterday my car got stuck in ice and within ten minutes four of my neighbors where out with shovels and boards. I suppose it depends on the area you live in. I live in a pretty NON populated area. One neighbor even asked if I wanted a few jugs of water if anything was to happen. In return I gave him a box of ammo, mainly out of respect and to say without saying, if he needed help hunting or anything in general, he could knock on my door and rely on me for some help.

If you live in a area where people aren't as friendly. I suggest try being more friendly towards them, some people just don't like to start a conversation first.

reply to post by ecain


Good point, we are all guilty of procrastination. And with our busy lifestyles it is almost a disipline to learn which will only serve in the future. Yes I am also guilty of the same.

As for the sweets posted above by Blossum, OMG!!! Send some my way!

There's a depression,,, where?

Oh right so you thought thats why the governments saying they're gonna have to spend billions on this and that, really people theres no depression going on its its just a very good time for some people to line their pockets and top up their retirement fund and splash out on that new learjet jet they have had their eye on for a while.

lol depression!

reply to post by heretic today gone tomorr

you are talking about "them" not "us". We the regular people are footing the bill for the billions being spent for "them" to line their pockets with, while we tighten "our" belts and purse strings. Do you understand the difference between "them" and "us" and who will feel a depression and who will not?




[edit on 1-30-2009 by worldwatcher]

I live in a townhouse community, it's been about 10 years now, I know almost all the neighbors on my street by names and the ones whose names I don't know, I make it a point to say hello. Our community is divided in with about 8-10 townhouses per "block". I made it a point of getting to know everyone who lives on my "block" on a "personal level". I also know people on every other block in the community too, namely because our kids all play together.

Last summer I shared with them produce from my container garden, thanksgiving and christmas we all exchange baked goods and some of us even exchange gifts. Even though it's an urban area (which has it's set of unique challenges) I definitely feel there is a spirit of community within. Following Hurricane Wilma and the many storms we've seen over the years, the men in my community have always gotten together and helped each other board up houses and clean up afterwards. While I want a bigger house and more yard space, and to live in a rural area, I fear moving because I will lose the value of the community I'm already in. I'm comfortable with my neighbors and thankfully each of them have very talents, and access to a variety of things that can be useful..I've tried to hint and guide my neighbors into my kind of mindset regarding disaster preparedness and as Floridians who deal with hurricanes every year, they have all complied to an extent but as to the "bigger" picture, well that's slowly be painted for them.

@ Stu dio

As for seeds, I've have a large collection of heirloom seeds, bought and collected from others. I also have a very large collection of regular seeds for now. My plan is to constantly be in varying growing stages of the basics that we will eat. When I grow heirloom variety, I always collect the seeds and save, hopefully I can get to a point of where it's becomes a natural cycle. And if all seeds fails or soil or outdoors makes it impossible, sprouting will have to be my alternate.

Who is going to watch my garden? Those same neighbors with whom I've always shared with that's who.. My neighbors don't have time or skills to do many of things I suggest, but I've been giving them edible plants in containers to "decorate" claiming I have too much, while ensuring that they will something to turn to when sitx happens. I've been encouraging them to grow their own food and just last week one of my neighbors came to me with questions regarding growing peppers in containers. I also plan on asking another neighbor to let me plant his empty garden, which I've been eyeing since last summer.... If I am seen as the one with the expertise when it comes to gardening, then I think I will be of value.

While I expect a financial collapse and some degree of anarchy, I feel comfortable with my community being able to work together and hold our own if we have to. My neighbors may not know yet, but I've already made a list of suggestions and plans on how we can protect our community from outsiders and also how we can get out if our community is used against us to keep us confined.

I cannot stress how important it is to know and live well with thy neighbor. Know their strengths and their weaknesses, know what vices they have and how you can benefit from that knowledge. It's the only way to survive any sort of sitx including the deep recession/depression we are already in.

I've mentioned this elsewhere too, but it's very easy to start a stockpile of anything you think you need, just one or two extra item, every time you shop, put it away and just keep adding. It's easy on the budget and in no time you can have a nice little stockpile of necessities. Worried about food, think Ramen noodles, worried about hygiene, buy bar soap in bulk, in hard times, you can use that same variety of bar soap to bathe with, wash clothes with, wash dishes with, even wash your hair with...it's not the best thing for all those purposes, but its a cheap and perfectly fine way to make due.. you guys get the idea...

reply to post by worldwatcher


Oh i read ya loud and clear, but the thing is, where i live i see the same volumes of shoppers in town and shops are still packed and till's are still ringing (or beeping) so unless im the only one who hasn’t been brainwashed yet or shocked into believing every word the government and media say then I’d say everything’s the same,
and i have to face the fact that me is only one and i cant do nothing about what "they" do accept vote for the other guy or girl next time election comes round, but that next candidate is just gonna be another one of the same mould off the production line just a different face and speech.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you watch fox news,
well i don't mean any offence here but to me you sound just a tad paranoid there, sure its great that you stock up on things and have your own little eden to grow your healthies in, but when you say you have a plan to defend from outsider's or to escape if they try to fence you in there, well it sounds a little extreme but if that’s how you feel in today’s world and your doing what you believe is right and gonna keep you and yours safe then more power to ya man

as for me im just gonna keep working in this peice of sh*t dead end job i have and keep saving for that rainny day and live out this pointless life to the max, and i would if i could keep a 12gauge handy for those close encounters lol.

[edit on 30/1/2009 by heretic today gone tomorr]

In the communities of the future every single person will be a valuable asset. Some will have expertise in gardening and others in the sciences and others will be poets, musicians and artists.

Each person will have a unique talent to add to the whole and in the communities of the future people will respect one another for what they can bring to the community. If you have no real talents or abilities, not to worry there will be plenty of jobs available on a daily basis.

No job will be more needed than the next. I for one do not like the idea of killing and gutting an animal, but I have no problem cooking it up and cleaning afterwards, some thing the butcher may not like to do.

The computer geek is going to be as valuable an asset as the hunter gatherers. The medics and nurses will be the only medical help you may be able to get. The musicians, artists, writers, story tellers and poets may be the only entertainment you have for quite some time.

There will be the vulnerable such as the handicap, blind and elderly, as well as the young, and the community will pool their resources to teach the children how to survive and thrive in the new world and take care of the elderly, disabled and blind.

Teachers will be so valuable, but the lessons will be so much deeper and meaningful in the future, and it will take the entire community to raise the children of the future. There will be orphans and displaced, and a few will stop by and you will want them to stay, and others you can feed a bit and send on their way.

Communities will begin to take on a life of their own and within your group, babies will be born, and groups will expand, when a group gets so big, then it is time to break off and begin new groups that still hold the community spirit with the original, and can come back for celebrations and barter or trade. Money will not be a problem as the things that money can buy will not be available. If your community has an abundance of game or agriculture, that is what you become known for, the same with other groups.

People of like minds will join together and although there will be rogue groups that would want to take, you will as a community be prepared.

Soon those groups will begin to drastically eradicate themselves. In the future work will be known as worship, it will be the strength of the community, to live you will have to work. And in return work will enable you to live.

I realize that this is jumping the gun, many stages will have occurred before this becomes a reality, much blood will be shed, many sacrifices will have to be made.

reply to post by heretic today gone tomorr


I barely watch tv anymore and it's been mostly cnbc when I do. Paranoid, yep to an extent, but I also live in a place that gets hurricanes and you have to have evacuation plans.

I have a rifle and the best camping equipment you can get. That is about all I need. When the crap really starts to roll down hill I won't be around long enough to watch the sheep riot, and have the boots kicking down my door.

reply to post by projectvxn


This is why escape routes can be your best friend during the begining if it goes the way we all antisipate. If you can hunker down then good, but there is always a chance that it will not be an option.

This is where neighbors do come together in an important manner. If services and help cannot get to you, it may take a concerted effort on the part of your community to secrure your area during the onset of disruptions.

Look at it this way, the high ranking government officials are not scared or worried, they have made a plan, they know that there could be riots and confusion in the beginning, but they have worked hard to make contingencies for after the chaos ends, that is when they step back in and figure it will be easy to control the hungry people.

But for just a moment stop and think about it from a different angle, one they do not antisipate, one that does not loose the independence of the community during and after the fall.

It may happen in at least two ways, one would be sudden like Oct. 29th 1929, and the other would be a slower more methodical shut down, one that may take months and even years to complete the total shutdown of goods and services, banking institutions and monetary systems.

The greatest tragedy is that they have professional advisors working round the clock to protect the infrastructure, the higher ups. They just assume that the ordinary citizen is going to go bananas. And that is when their FEMA camps and holding places will be opened for business.

I have to go for now, but this 'is' worthy of consideration. Hold in your thought processes the people who have proven to come together in crisis, that is amazing and ripe with all the possibility in the world.

reply to post by project vxn



I think one of the most important things you can do is to read my story on page one about my Great grandpa and how he handled his shotgun during the peak of the depression.

Again pearls of wisdom from the greatest teachers of the last Great Depression. I cannot stress the need to incorporate the elderly, the people who have lived through the first one into your plans for this next one.

Yes my Grandpa is now 93 and vulnerable as his Grandparents were during the first depression. I plan to protect him and my Grandma the same as I will my children. But this cannot be done without the cooperation of our neighborhood. No man will be able to stand alone, no one person can be expected to do all that will be needed to be done on all fronts.

So you say you are ready willing and able to use your rifle? Good that will be needed too, but not just that. And to have the honor of being a shooter during the chaos will be a respected position of integrity and awareness and mental ability, otherwise you would fast find yourself at the wrong end of the gun.

Originally posted by Niall197
Shucks. I fear Grandma's been overdosing on her Prozac again.

Was that line really called for Niall? Those of us who care about whats going on and trying to make a change here in peoples mind sets will know that this is a postive thread. A call to action, and a call to our minds and bodies to prepare for the comming years.

Next time around you should show a little more respect to those working their best to give you something that money can not buy.

I hope that in time you will listen more closely to what she has to say. And filter out that brain to finger deal you have going on.

Thank you Antar for the great thread! Many of us are listening, and listening closely to what you have to say here!
Most the time I let stuff like that slide.. But when I see snide remarks made, I have to jump in and speak my mind..

Your grandmother, what a strong woman! I have much respect for her. And as always you aswell..
S&F from me here.. I just hope more will open their hearts and minds to what you have to offer.. It will serve to help many people on this earth!

Again pearls of wisdom from the greatest teachers of the last Great Depression. I cannot stress the need to incorporate the elderly, the people who have lived through the first one into your plans for this next one.

True words spoken.. We can learn so much from the past. As how many times must it repeat before we understand, years and years later, we fall into the same booby traps as our elders did..
We must learn from them! We must understand so much about how they went about life.. As it will serve us greatly..
These older folks got by with so much less.. And today we sit all cozy and nice with all our "stuff". When at some point when all that "stuff" is gone or doesnt work anymore.. What will you do? Most wont have a clue as what to do.. Unless they take the time to listen, and listen closely!

[edit on 31-1-2009 by zysin5]

reply to post by antar



Oh no. I'm not sure I was clear. I won't be around for this at ALL. If you're standing next to me when the SHTF, you even say "huh?" and you'll be talking to yourself. I'm abstaining from the stupidity that will take place. I have not the luxury of grandparents. Believe me I wish I did. But both are in Cuba 6 feet under, on both sides. The best I have is my experience from Costa Rica and my Cuban parents. Both of these places are like living in a constant Great Depression. Poverty in the extreme is something I'm used to, and well prepared for. The only people I fear for are those my age and younger who have never had to deal with the kind of poverty America is about to face. I'd argue that no one really is. Unless you came from one of the worlds' crap holes like I did.

Right now would be a good time to make friends with people from the 3rd world.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by antar

 

Right now would be a good time to make friends with people from the 3rd world.

I'd have to say "no it wouldn't" on that one and suggest that EVERYONE that isn't already to get up off their chunky butts and get a job (for those who don't have one yet)and start getting fit and battle ready physically and mentally, learn your rights, stop taking drugs and drinking excessively, stop being racist, forget about religion and start focusing your faith and belief where it really counts on the people around you and encourage them to do the same, get yourself outta debt and stay away from taking credit/loans from banks and lenders, cos whats more important, that nice new big hd screen or getting one step closer to being debt free?
i know most people on ATS will have a debt of some amount and whilst you owe money they own you.

But even more important your kids, start getting the next generation clued up on the real world instead of them having to learn the hard way or in the worst cases TO LATE or not at all like most of us will have done, stop taking your kids out to McDonald's every day get them to exercise and take part in judo and karate teach them the meaning of money and that saving up is a good thing instead of spending it before its even in your pocket and don't let them waste their youth on sitting in front of the TV or playing computer games all day and night, and unless your a complete momo make up some homework for them don't wait on school giving it to them and go through it with them,
cos if you just let them run wild and spoil them before you know it they're 16 and giving you the finger and staying out all night drinking and fighting and like allot of kids these days in trouble with the cops.

like i said in an earlier post "What Depression?" just get on with it and make sure you got you and yours covered.

[edit on 31/1/2009 by heretic today gone tomorr]

Originally posted by worldwatcher


While I expect a financial collapse and some degree of anarchy, I feel comfortable with my community being able to work together and hold our own if we have to. My neighbors may not know yet, but I've already made a list of suggestions and plans on how we can protect our community from outsiders and also how we can get out if our community is used against us to keep us confined.

I cannot stress how important it is to know and live well with thy neighbor. Know their strengths and their weaknesses, know what vices they have and how you can benefit from that knowledge. It's the only way to survive any sort of sitx including the deep recession/depression we are already in.


I've mentioned this elsewhere too, but it's very easy to start a stockpile of anything you think you need, just one or two extra item, every time you shop, put it away and just keep adding. It's easy on the budget and in no time you can have a nice little stockpile of necessities. Worried about food, think Ramen noodles, worried about hygiene, buy bar soap in bulk, in hard times, you can use that same variety of bar soap to bathe with, wash clothes with, wash dishes with, even wash your hair with...it's not the best thing for all those purposes, but its a cheap and perfectly fine way to make due.. you guys get the idea...

Thanks World Watcher, you truly live up to your name in this post. At the risk of getting a warning for excessive quoting, I will address the above paragraphs.

When you take time to actually make contingency plans for the total economic collapse, rather than indulging in fantasy about how one is going to run around haphazardly gun in hand shooting their way to freedom from oppression, you are the absolute hope for the future.

For every World Watcher that is silently and subtly steering the people around them, I applaud your higher consciousness and for thought. We have the opportunity that was not available to the people of the last depressions, we have communication and an intelligence network of the people. This is the blind card that they know has the potential to change the course of our governments and military actions in crisis.

The more we prepare, the less panic and fear will be present and in its place a sense of getting to work, rather than shooting at shadows when the time comes. In the beginning the main systems for the small group will be food, water, medical and security and a willingness to not only survive but thrive during the collapse. I do not want to rely on the gov. for assistance as it is gong to be over burdened and unsafe to do so.

In crisis, people will define those they trust to lead, and WW, you have the calm and assuring nature to do just that. So by assigning the task lists ahead of time, you will be just that much more of a leader.

We have already felt the terror and fear of what was to come by our research and availability to learn all of the angles before the collapse. Most were busy paying bills, going to work and living the dream. We were studying and working towards having the basics set in place. For us, we will not go through the shock and awe, been there done that, lol.

My Grandparents could wake up tomorrow with their entire life savings gone, and they will not panic, because they have lived through this before and know we have a network of people willing to grow, butcher and protect all of our needs.

One thing I wanted to share is that I keep extra shoes clothes and items the boys have outgrown in a big box in the garage, if in the future I need to pass a coat or pair of shoes down to a little one I can. In turn I could get the parent of the needy to work for a day, I can feed them and give their little one what they need. I can also send them on their way.

We cannot take on every passer by, and we do not have to show and tell what we have, but there will be decent people in need, not all passers by are going to be murdering lowlives.

Also gathering rags from discarded sweatshirts and such will come in handy for wiping everything from fannies to counter tops. Simple sponges for periods. In the old days women used rags as kotex. I keep a big supply for the collapse for personal use. I buy on sale and cheap brands and store. Vitamins on sale are a very smart move as well. Canned baby formula, can get you some hard workers in trade. I did buy tobacco to grow this year for people who need that... I have all the supplies to make my own lye soap, and never throw away the dregs of used soap. I have jars and jars of it to make good soap in the future. It is CHEAP, to get the supplies to make your soap. I don't want to use it now, I like my store bought, but can in stx. Candle wicks, learn to make your own, And buy reusable wax, that can be remade over and over. Cotton T Shirts twisted and spun dipped in wax...

I love that you are giving your neighbors edible plants, that is awesome. I also try to grow every type of medicine, from toothache plant to feminine aids, pain relievers, and even anti inflammatories.

Gotta go for now, thanks for your positive influence. I had a GF come over yesterday and finally had the 'talk' with her, it was great and now I know I have an alliance with another family in our part of the country.

reply to post by heretic today gone tomorr


Very few people know what I do. So I will let you in on the secret. I have ties to Nevada State and local governments. I get things done and I make my voice heard. And I usually have a few thousand signatures authorizing me to speak for them. I'm not a quiet guy, I smoke, drink and screw, and I make sure the representatives know it because that's the vast majority of the population. There are things people are concerned with in between smoking, drinking, and screwing that they worry about. Like why the county, city, and state is cutting funding for police, firefighters, schools and higher education by 35 to 45% when we could just tax our gold mines and fund all of it. We don't tax the mining association. Meaning that we produce 82% of the country's gold and make not one bloody cent on it. It is the same with silver and copper. ZERO.

I'm a solutions oriented kinda guy. I look for the best possible solution to a problem. The last thing we want to be doing in Nevada is cutting education and basic public services. Parks and Rec could be cut entirely because they have a huge budget surplus in the tens of millions.. We don't need Parks and Rec right now we need police, firefighters and schools. There are some ridiculous excesses in the way we pay out overtime(In some cases you don't even need to show up to work). Those thing can be dealt with to eliminate the waste of ten million a year.

The state is currently trying to make a recession into a depression by cutting and cutting and only in the places that matter rather than raising in the places no one talks about. I talk about it. My suggestion is, if you don't want to deal with a SHTF scenario then get up and make a difference. Dive right in. No experience needed. You get loud enough and they can't ignore you for long.

reply to post by projectvxn


Darn, now you are no longer my best kept secret! Born on a mountain raised in a cave...

We should engage in a heated debate at some point in the future.

I am attempting my first this next week, but anytime after that would be great. You pick the subject as it sounds like your an old pro!