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The true cost of smoking

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posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:29 AM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 


Your argument "IF smoking causes cancer, then it would follow that all smokers get cancer eventually. This is not true. It would also follow that non-smokers would not get cancer." doesn't make any sense.

Do the statistics.
Kentucky and West Virginia — where people traditionally smoke the most — have the highest death rates from smoking, a new federal study has found.
Kentucky leads nation in smoking deaths

You can defend your habit anyway you like but the statistics are valid.

64 percent of deaths in people that currently smoke, are directly linked to smoking. 64%

I guess the lucky smokers get hit by a car before they die from smoking related illnesses.



l




posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by Wildbob77
 


I have to share with everybody the fact that my father died in his early forties from cancer. He smoked all his life. When he died I was 9 years old and my sister 10 months. My life after his death was a series of trying to deal with our drastically reduced income household, a mother who went dating frequently, and when she finally remarried after 4 years he accepted my sister because she was cute and very young, but I pretty much finished my high school years living at either this aunt or that relatives house.

The strange thing though is that although my mother never smoked she always scolded me for complaining about my father smoking around us. I hated the smell of smoke, the way it made me cough, the full ashtrays, the smoking over dinner. I was a child and had no right to choose not to live in a smoke filled home. Do you consider this fair?



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:31 AM
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Oops double post. Please delete this one. Though maybe repition might help get the point through.

[edit on 30-1-2009 by Mynaeris]



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:31 AM
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Smokers already pay for children's heathcare, at least in my state they do. So im doing something good along with killing myself.

Eat that non smokers ;-)



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:34 AM
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98% of all statistics are made up. ~Author Unknown

My Favorite:
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. ~Aaron Levenstein



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by Amaxium
98% of all statistics are made up. ~Author Unknown

My Favorite:
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. ~Aaron Levenstein


Do clever quips and bumper stickers make them true? Honestly at least get beyond the bumper sticker responses. Show us where are going wrong. If there are statistics and they are false, there should be statistics that prove it? Or can't smokers do research?





[edit on 30-1-2009 by Mynaeris]



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by Mynaeris
 


My GOD Mynah! Do you take every post in this thread so personally? I am glad you have found passion for a cause but do not let it turn into an obsession. Your posts throughout this thread have proven one thing. You HATE smokers. I get it, I'm sure others get it, if they have read your posts. I was posting 2 quotes I personally find amusing and thought others might find amusing as well.

Get over it!

I have posted my fill for this thread and am now deleting it from my list of threads and will post here no more. To debate is one thing. To maintain civility and decorum maintains the debate remains engaging and interesting.

Peace out.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:52 AM
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reply to post by Wildbob77
 


Trying to force people to stop smoking is stupid. It will not work. You need to do some learning about the psychology of addiction. The way the anti-smokers are attacking this will actually cause more people to start up not less. People without psychology or counseling training should not be involved.

These posts do nothing. Help nothing. Accomplish nothing. They are just outward manifestations of control freaks frustration when they can not control others behavior. Anti-Smokers don't give a damn about smokers and never did. It is all about controlling people and grandeur delusions.

You can go into anyone's life and find reckless behavior. Mountain Climbers, Snowboarders, Skiers and many others risk their lives and their families futures and think nothing of it. Many people die doing those activities and leave behind families and children. They are never criticized even though technically it is just as bad as smoking in every way. These activities are unnecessary and avoidable but I'll bet you a dollar you approve of them? They are addictions to adrenalin. What are you doing personally about that behavior. I know I'm being ridiculous but it is true.

Hound your children about it and I guarantee you they will smoke behind your back because of the hounding.

[edit on 1/30/2009 by Blaine91555]



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by Amaxium
 


I do find it amusing that if you don't like having smoke around you that you are branded as hating smokers. I like smokers , they are just people, I just don't like people smoking around me, especially when I make an effort not to go where people are smoking.

On the other hand your post wasn't trying to be amusing, it was more to say that we are lying with our statistics.

reply to post by Blaine91555
 


I must have misread my intention on this thread - I thought I said numerous times I am all for people smoking, but not for them making me and other non-smokers ( both those who say they don't mind and those that do mind) breathe in their smoke. If I went jogging and never bathed and didn't wear deodorant would you mind if I had my armpit next to your nose on hot days? Would you be okay to have to breathe it in every time I felt I needed to do it?



[edit on 30-1-2009 by Mynaeris]



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by Telafree
Smokers already pay for children's heathcare, at least in my state they do. So im doing something good along with killing myself.

Eat that non smokers ;-)


The taxes smokers pay far exceeds the cost of their health care and have for decades. Its the anti-smokers dirty little secret. The States lied to get the settlements from the tobacco companies and then used none of it to help the supposed victims. They should be prosecuted for lying in court. It is not used to pay for our health care.

If they lost the taxes on smokers tomorrow, they would have to raise taxes on everyone else dramatically. Cigarette taxes make up a huge part of local, state and national budgets. Think they want you to quit, think again. Think they care about your health, think again. It is a cash cow. They spend a little on the extra health care and rake in huge profits from the cigarette taxes. They actually pull in more than the Tobacco Companies do by a large amount.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by Mynaeris
 

Edited to say I did not respond to you????????????????????

[edit on 1/30/2009 by Blaine91555]



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 12:04 PM
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reply to post by Wildbob77

Kentucky and West Virginia — where people traditionally smoke the most — have the highest death rates from smoking, a new federal study has found.


"highest death rate from smoking"...

Hmmm....

How exactly was that established? To date, I have never heard or seen one single scientific study that indicated smoking was fatal at all.... all of these studies indicate that smoking may lead to fatal conditions. Are those statistics including all deaths from lung cancer? Throat cancer? Emphysema? Heart attacks? Indigestion? Jock itch? Smokers having car accidents?

If you're gonna butt heads with me over statistics, let's get a bit more specific, shall we? Having to wrap my head around silliness such as this makes me smoke more.


To Heike: you are right on the money! I personally stuff my own tobacco into my own untreated tubes with natural cotton filters. The taste is soooooooo much better, the cost is a third of what I used to pay, and I do feel better and smoke less since I switched. Next step? Growing my own tobacco from seeds!


To Mynah: Sorry to hear about your childhood. But somewhere down the line, you will have to realize that it wasn't the evil cigarette that did the dirty deeds... maybe it was the chemicals in them, as Heike pointed out, and maybe it was just nature, just his time to go. Who is to say that he would not have died of something else?

May you find peace and acceptance in your life... but I fear you not find it through blaming others for what cannot be changed.

TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by Mynaeris
 


Sorry, I ran on emotion. My apologies.

I did not read far enough before posting. I assumed and should not have.

I'll take the public flogging.


Your place or mine?


I am trying to find a reasonable second line to this post. Maybe that was it.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 12:05 PM
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THIS IS MY UNIVERSAL COMPROMISE!

It's a safe bet most smokers are aware of the increased health risks. People are free to make their own decisions about their health.

Smoker's who annoy people by littering and smoking in inappropriate environments are selfish and inconsiderate.

Smoker's that contribute to the harm that is passive smoking are criminally evil and bereft of decency.

Non-smoker's who piss and moan about smokers' habits should get a life and direct the mind to thoughts more pleasant.

Non-smoker's should also empathise with those who are genuinely trying to quit and cut down. It is often an extremely difficult and drawn out process.

Smokers: wash your hands, bin your butts and smoke with consideration.
Non-smokers: if it's going to bother you, try standing on the other side of the bus stop.
Smokers: wash your hands, bin your butts and smoke with consideration!!

And for those complaining about taxes and user pay's...

...the rationale of why you should pay for someone else' cancer treatment is exactly the same as why the rest of the globe has to pay for the greed and financial irresponsibility of the US: because the system is designed to maximise profit at the expense of basic human needs; needs that are drained from the citizenry. And that means you.*

Australian health care is subsidised to be virtually free.
We encourage sport and fitness.
Our food supply is cleaner and our choices healthier.
Primary school health education is comprehensive.

Importantly, many public policy and civil programs are designed to transcend socio-economic boudaries and help those who can't afford it by spending wisely and ethically from those who can.



*And me. I am already paying for YOUR sub-prime mortgage crisis!



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 12:05 PM
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The best way to end smoking is to make it illegal for anyone who has not reached the age of 21 by Jan 1, 2010.

Existing smokers who are over 21 at that time can continue to smoke.

All others would be prohibited from purchasing tobacco products. If a store sells to people that have not reached the age of 21 after Jan1, 2010 they lose their license to sell tobacco.

No more new smokers. It's not hard to come up with a solution.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 


Thanks for your sentiments - I really appreciate it.. I am really not mad at the world, I did pretty darn good for myself, I have a PhD and pretty good life, but I sometimes wonder if I would have known more about him if he had lived longer. I was too young to know whether he was a clever man, or have him help me with my first date, etc - all I know is that I loved him and he loved me.

For those parents who smoke around their kids, please read what I said earlier, it took me many years to forgive him for leaving me when I needed him most. Don't die on your kids if you can prevent it, let them enjoy the years they have with you to the fullest.

[edit on 30-1-2009 by Mynaeris]



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by theendisnear69
reply to post by LeTan
 


Exactly if they are so afraid of getting lung cancer than they can just move, or ask me to move.

Then they go eat Mcdonalds and forget about how smoking gives you heart disease.


No one ever died from second hand heart disease from living with a Big Mac porker...

2nd line.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by Mynaeris
why is there no smoker on any thread on smoking that admits that second and third hand smoking is a problem? I am guessing because smokers really don't care about us and our rights?


Why is there no NONsmoker on any thread that will admit that car fumes, and all the other crap you put into your bodies are just as bad if not worse than smoking? Face it. This world is full of toxic fumes. And you want to whine about smokers? Its really amazing.. You have millions of cars on the roads. Industry, flouride in your water supply, lead in childrens clothes and toys, and all you can do is say how bad smoking is FOR YOU.

You people don't give a damn about my health. Lets be real here for a moment. You think that somewhere down the line you might be inconvenienced by my smoking.. When all around you is a toxic world.

Give me a break and get off your high and mighty horse. Look around you and the world you live in.. Once you take away smoking whats next? Huh? What will be the next thing to personally inconvenience you.

This is just a tip toe to take away more and more rights we have left.
And we don't have many left and you are going to tread on me?

Non smokers really don't care about health.. Or they would be fighting those other deals that infect this planet.. But no lets run down smokers.
Becasue they are the root of all that smog in the air.

I hope for your sake you don't ever do anything in your life that would inconvenience anyone else.. I sertinly hope you don't litter.. What do you do with all your trash? Don't tell me you put it on the way side so another human can take care of your trash for you.

As its all trash.. Tallkin trash. As you don't really care about health..
Bottom line.. If this was about health issues.. Then you wouldn't be coming after smokers. No this is something else all together.
So be honest and tell us what this is really about..

Would it be a personal agenda?

I know smoking is bad for your health.. I don't give a damn.. IM going to die anyway.. And so are you.. Everyone is going to die..
All those non smokers have just a good of a chance of getting cancer as I do.
If non smokers are so healthy.. Why do so many non smokers still die today?
Second hand smoke is bullocks, and all it does is inconvenience the non smoker.. Its a personal agenda, and has nothing to do with health..

Should we outlaw the sun too? I mean the sun gives people cancer.. So lets build a big dome and block out the sun while we are at it.

The sun is deadly to us.. And will cause cancer.. So are we to block out and Bann the suns rays from comming to earth?

[edit on 30-1-2009 by zysin5]



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 12:33 PM
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reply to post by Mynaeris

Those sentiments are heartfelt and genuine, I can assure you. You may not realize it, but your posts thus far have shown a great deal of inner hatred. Take it from someone who is still beating on that demon.

My father didn't die until I was in my late 20s, but he became an invalid when I was a teenager. His mind was still there in a vegetating body, but it couldn't reach out.

He was a wise, funny, capable, strong, independent man. Never have I heard another person say a harsh word about him. Today I only wish I could hope to fill one of his shoes, let alone both. My life, I am sure, would have been much different had his wisdom and direction not been taken from me so early. It was easy to blame him, but I never did for very long. He didn't ask for that blood clot to lodge in his brain. I know in my heart he would have done everything possible to stop it had he known it was coming. Yeah, he smoked, but it had nothing to do with his sickness or eventual death.

But I don't really remember those days of an old man vegetating away in a hospital bed in the living room, occasionally swaying and staggering as he struggled to make his way to the bathroom unassisted. No, I remember loading wood he was cutting, him showing me how to drive, putting up new fences or fixing the old ones, building a barn, fishing on the river, and him acting silly as he 'played' with the little homemade tractor he built out of scrap iron. I did receive the things he tried to give me, it was just that I hadn't realized it until many years later after he was truly gone.

You appear to have done pretty well with your life, despite the loss. Perhaps you should try counting your blessings. I believe all things happen for a reason. All we have to do is accept that and look for the reason.

If you were 8 when your father left you, I have no doubt that you can remember him. Those memories are his final gift to you. Cherish them, learn from them, and teach those lessons to your sister who was not so fortunate. He is still with you as long as you remember him.

As my daddy still lives in me.


TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 12:35 PM
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English semantics is so very complicated.

The rabies virus CAUSES rabies.
The smallpox virus CAUSES smallpox.
Staphylococcus aureus CAUSES staph infections.

Smoking does not CAUSE cancer. Smoking may TRIGGER the start of the process, but it doesn't cause it. If you dissect a lung cancer tumor, you won't find little particles of tobacco in it.


As well say alcohol CAUSES alchoholism. Some people may, but that's been proven not to be true, since alcoholics can be "diagnosed" from brain scans in early childhood before they've ever had a drink.

You might as well say sugar causes diab .. oh wait .. it does .... never mind.
But how come no one is screaming about the health care costs of diabetics? Hmm? Sure, it's partly genetic but most people wouldn't get it if they didn't eat too much sugar. And some people who didn't have the "predisposition" get late-onset diabetes simply from sugaring their pancreas to death. But I don't hear anyone trying to make people stop eating candy or donuts to save on health care costs.

Funny thing is, cancer is the same way. Yes, I was there for my mother's very unpleasant death from lung cancer. The really sad part is, she never smoked. As someone else said but was conveniently ignored, we still don't actually know what really does cause cancer.

As I said in another thread, you anti-smokers would be easier to take seriously if you were honest. You don't like breathing smoke and you don't like the smell. PERIOD. That's what it's about. Well, hey, guess what, I don't like lots of things I breathe and smell during the course of an average day, but I don't get to make people bathe or not wear obnoxious perfumes or not spray pesticides in my office at work.

What is really happening here is that the so-called health risks and health care costs are being used as a cover to make being anti-smoking politically correct. You smoke haters can feel self-righteous and morally superior and all by dragging out the innocent children being harmed by second-hand smoke (a modern day myth!), the people who are "allergic" to cigarette smoke (guess what, cigarette smoke doesn't have any allergens in it - it's medically impossible to be allergic to cigarette smoke), and all the other stuff. The REALITY is, it's all a big SMOKESCREEN (like that pun?) for

"I don't like SMOKE and I don't like SMOKERS."



Yeah, we get it. We got it a long time ago. But why can't you just be honest about it, like the people who don't like seeing pink spandex in 3X or the people who don't like anything else? Why all the extraneous BS that means nothing except that it sounds good and will make smokers feel guilty if they buy into it?



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