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Smoking Banned in Homes-California Adopts 'Hitler's Policy'

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posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by HeikeHowever, the whole "health concerns" thing is nonsense. Respiratory problems are much more likely to be caused by other gases and pollutants; have they been tested for in your apartment and these others? Just because you can SMELL the cigarette smoke doesn't mean it's the cause of your problems. Many other (and far more harmful) gases and pollutants have no odor. In fact, common household DUST is far more likely to be causing your respiratory problems than cigarette smoke. Dust actually has allergens in it; cigarette smoke doesn't.



You do make some interesting points. If this was just foul smells, the open window would address the issue, as it does with cooking odours. The cigarettes however cause respiratory issues. It's nothing else in the enviornment triggering it, I am sorry that you choose not to validate my concerns and other non smokers real life experiences of this, but that is the reality that we live with.

I am aware that dust, pet dandour can all be concerns, but after years and years, I know what triggers what, I know the symptoms that smoking triggers, and nothing else has the same effect.

I am really sorry that you find it hard to believe that smoking causes some people to have breathing problems and other ailments, but that's the reality of it all. I think in past times, people were made ill, but they were afraid to speak out, when they did speak out, no one listened. It's only by getting laws passed, taking business to court, and other lawsuits, that people have finally listened.

See the complaints were there, but just they were not being validated. At the time people did not have the hard research, and were more than likely afraid to speak up. In resent times that's changed, and that is why you have a lot of the laws that you do.

I am sorry to say it, but many non smokers have been hoping for the day where they can live in an apartment, condo and not be affected by smokers. I hate seeing people's rights taken away however, and so maybe the idea in the long run will be to look at buildings that do not allow smoke or other things to pass through walls, vents, pipes, etc.




posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck

Harrassment, we need to sit down and look at your claims with a bit of reality here. You are claiming that second-hand smoke is dangerous to your health, and that it is seeping through wall outlets and cracks in sufficient quantity to adversely affect your health.


Oh my gosh, thanks for dropping by. This should clearify everything.

Not claiming, this is the reality. Thank you for acknowledging this. Where I am others have complained about smoking seeping into thier apartments as well, so it's just not me. I don't know if it's the construction etc, but there are other complaints.



Now, in the apartment next to you are humans who are smoking regularly... I'll even give you the possibility that they smoke as much as I do (proudly does his impersonation of a chimney). They are releasing smoke from the ends of their burning cigarettes, as well as breathing out the same smoke (although filtered) from their lungs. That in itself means they are inhaling the smoke directly and therefore are getting a much larger dose than is being exhaled. Unless, of course, you are arguing that somehow the smoke intensifies by them absorbing the nicotine.


I will say that I doubt it's chain smoking, yet the problems are still the same. The only point I am arguing is my health being affected. I don't know if it's being inhaled, exhaled, don't care. The end result is all I care about.



Now, with the source of the offending smoke in an adjacent room, that would mean that your apartment, if there were no wall whatsoever, would have less of a concentration of smoke than their apartment. Considering the fact that you have a wall, even a porous one, between you, the amount of cigarette smoke that can physically enter your apartment is minuscule. That smoke will be mixed with the air already in your apartment, which I will assume has not been polluted by cigarette smoke from your apartment. That further diminishes the concentration of potential cigarette smoke that could possibly be coming into your apartment.


It's like being from Mars or Venus. Someone can be smoking and others will not notice it, others will be able to notice it but not be affected, and others will be affected by it.



That means we have the following alternatives:
  • You are extremely sensitive to cigarette smoke, and therefore could no doubt make a small fortune by allowing yourself to be used for medical tests for hyper-allergenic reactions. I would check into this, because if you are that sensitive to that small an amount of cigarette smoke, you will drop dead if you ever get within twenty feet of a running car.


I guess the other people in the building complaining of smoke coming into their apartments, must be in the same category, I will let them know right away to submit themselves to science. Actually I have been around running cars and I am fine. Although I don't stand behind running cars in enclosed enviornments for over 8 hours a day.


  • The real culprit is not cigarette smoke from the next apartment, but rather any of a number of different airborne toxins that may be permeating the atmosphere since you chose to live in a city environment. (Oops, sorry, forgot only smokers actually choose to do things... my bad.)


  • Though there could be other culprits, after years and years, I have been able to illimiate the other culprits and hone in on this one culprit. Thanks again for having the ability to understand this, not.



  • Your apartment building has huge fans installed inside the walls that are pushing smoke into your apartment.

  • You have developed a nicotine magnet that is drawing the smoke into your apartment, leaving the one next door with the smokers in it nice and clean.

  • There are dead bodies next door to you mummified in all the cigarette smoke, which must be so thick as to be considered a solid rather than a group of airborne particles

  • You like to complain, and this is the best you can do for right now since your life is so great in every other way.

  • You're making this whole story up to get attention.


    Yeah, I call BS on this one too.

    TheRedneck


  • That's right me and other non smokers just make it up to get attention. The other people in the building are probably just attention getting fiends as well.

    You can call it BS, or whatever you like, the point is, smoking causes health problems for others. Smokers do not have the right to affect the health of others. You addiction does not have the right to ruin my health, when I did not ask for it.

    You can live in denial all you want, but the reality is, our voices are getting heard after years of struggle, and being made ill from other people's addictions. These laws are being passed because more and more people are willing to fight for their rights to be healthy. If some smokers respected this, these laws would not be needed. People could probably have talked it out and found ways to respect each other, and solutions to suit each others needs. Instead you come up with arguments such as these, which ignore the reality of what is happening, and so non smokers are left with no choice but to take the actions they have been taking for the last several years, and which you are now seeing the affects of. So really it's smokers like you, that have brought this up on the others.

    Still I don't like to see people's rights taken away, and I would be more than happy to look at other alternatives.



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 10:37 PM
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    reply to post by Harassment101
     


    There is a "poor man's" test method to see if in fact you have cig smoke comming through those electrical outlets and the walls themselves.

    Take a roll of white toilet paper and tape a single layer around the outlet, leaving a hole of course for your plugs. Let them sit there for a few days.

    Then after a few days, remove them and see if the other side of the toilet paper is brown in color, not black or grey, but brown.

    This will tell you if in fact you got the next door neighbor's cig smoke leaking through the walls and out through the electrical outlets.

    BTW, how old is your apartment building?

    If you see a light grey or dark grey shade, that is NOT cig smoke, but in fact old outdated, asbestos saturated insulation that will be far more of a pressing issue of a health hazard than any cig smoke you have ever been exposed to, or ever will be exposed to.

    Cheers!!!!

    [edit on 30-1-2009 by RFBurns]



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 10:38 PM
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    reply to post by Harassment101
     


    You've obviously never sat next to a smelly overweight person in an airplane. It does affect my health sitting next to them, their body odor is so strong, I get ready to puke and do feel ill. I can only get up to go to the back of the plane only so much. At least when a smoker lights up, I can just move a few feet away. I'm not saying a person who doesn't shower is actually going to destroy my health and kill me but it's the discomfort of the situation is what I was getting at. But this example you quoted from my post was not the point and is obvious you didn't get it. Someone lighting up near you will not kill you. There are things out in the world that could kill you off a lot more quickly and more painfully. You've let the anti smoking campaign really warp your brain didn't you? I think you need to look at things unbiasedly.

    I've known lots of people who've smoked old and young. Not to many with respiratory issues and lung cancer. My grandma smoked till she died, and guess what? no lung cancer, no breathing problems. One poster wrote that when the baby boomers were young, they had to grow up with everyone smoking up the living rooms. Is everyone from that generation dead from lung cancer. I personally don't smoke, I think it's disgusting and don't like to be in a smoke filled room. But guess what, I respect the fact that they smoke and I just move away from it. You don't have to move far, just a few feet. I've also never told anyone that they should stop, it's not my place to do it, they are grown adults they know the risks of it and can decide for themselves if they want to continue it.



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 10:40 PM
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    Originally posted by Heike

    You know, I really really try to be courteous and polite and discuss the post - and the issue at hand - rather than the person posting. But it's getting tough here


    Likewise, yet we must continue on.


    You're posting "real life examples" and expecting me to take them at face value. Okay, here's one for you. My friend Sharon has an adult daughter. Said daughter has severe asthma. Sharon has fibromyalgia and other health issues which prevent her from working full time, so about a year ago she had to move in with her daughter. In warm weather Sharon smokes outside, but in cold or otherwise bad weather she smokes in her bedroom with the door closed. And the daughter, severe asthma and all, is serenely unaffected by Mom's SHS in spite of the fact that there's nothing between them but a closed bedroom door and Sharon smokes like a chimney.


    I am going to not comment on smoking parents in homes with children, just to keep on topic here. That's great. Maybe the construction of the home is good, maybe your friend does not realise that other harm might be caused. If I had a child in that condiction, I would never risk exposing them to smoke, to each their own. Not all problems happen at once, they accumulate over time, and get worst with exposure, so she might not be affected now, but give it time. Then she might never be affected, why take the risk with your child?



    And as "evidence" I present to you the hundreds of thousands of us baby boomers who grew up in homes with smoking parents and have NO respiratory problems. No asthma, no COPD, no lung cancer. WE were fine watching TV in the smoke-filled living rooms of our childhood, apparently because no one had yet told us how harmful it was. Or are today's kids just so much weaker and sickly than we were?
    There's some real life FACTS for you, not biased research that WANTS to get the result that second hand smoke is harmful.


    Many others did. i grew up with a friend, not a baby boomer, dad smoked, and she was sucking on a puffer from little school.



    My Dad has prostate cancer and every one of his seven siblings has died of cancer. But guess what, neither of their parents smoked and only one of his brothers did. My husband's family, on the other hand .. they all smoked and none of them have cancer or died of it. Oh, and my Dad's family didn't grow up in a big polluted city either, they were raised on a farm in the boothill of Missouri. Go figure.


    I know people that are like that, smoke their whole lives, never got cancer, what people fail to realise is that what affects on person one way, will affect another person a completly different way.

    I am pretty healthy and active, most things don't bother me, but cigarette smoke does. When I say bother, i don't mean the smell, I mean the problems that come with it, problems that I don't have, when not being exposed to it. This is years of testing this, it's the cigarettes.



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 10:45 PM
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    Originally posted by RFBurns
    reply to post by Harassment101
     


    There is a "poor man's" test method to see if in fact you have cig smoke comming through those electrical outlets and the walls themselves.

    Take a roll of white toilet paper and tape a single layer around the outlet, leaving a hole of course for your plugs. Let them sit there for a few days.

    Then after a few days, remove them and see if the other side of the toilet paper is brown in color, not black or grey, but brown.

    This will tell you if in fact you got the next door neighbor's cig smoke leaking through the walls and out through the electrical outlets.

    BTW, how old is your apartment building?

    If you see a light grey or dark grey shade, that is NOT cig smoke, but in fact old outdated, asbestos saturated insulation that will be far more of a pressing issue of a health hazard than any cig smoke you have ever been exposed to, or ever will be exposed to.

    Cheers!!!!

    [edit on 30-1-2009 by RFBurns]


    I really don't know the age, but I do know that there have been complaints filed about the cigarette smoke, coming in via walls.



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 10:50 PM
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    reply to post by Harassment101

    Still I don't like to see people's rights taken away, and I would be more than happy to look at other alternatives.


    Then let's give you the benefit of the doubt and look at other alternatives. You claim you have eliminated all other possibilities. While I will assume you are sincere in this statement, you should know it is virtually impossible to completely eliminate all possible allergens from an area of air, especially one that is not enclosed and continually filtered (as in a hospital quarantine unit).

    Could a previous tenant have had pets? Pet dander can get into as tiny a crevice as cigarette smoke, and can easily cause allergic reactions.

    Could there be a hidden cockroach infestation inside the walls of the apartments? The little buggers are common, and they also can cause severe allergenic reactions (mainly from the dust off their feces).

    Could you have become sensitized to the smog level around you? It does happen.

    Is it possible that the HVAC system is blowing something into the apartments? That would explain why a lot of the tenants are affected as you claim.

    Could there be a problem with an older building product degrading? Asbestos was used quite recently compared to the average age of most buildings. They still discover asbestos in older buildings even today fairly regularly. And asbestos is only one older building material that can cause problems. The wiring used in older buildings used an insulation material which can degrade over time and release harmful gases. These gases are not odoriferous, but they are toxic (ironically, they are released by the heat of the wires they surround).

    My last post was simply to point out that your claim, while it may to you appear valid, simply cannot be true. It is not physically possible for one room containing smokers to have such a wide-spread and severe health impact on other rooms adjacent to it, without everyone in the smoking room literally being smothered to death in the denseness of the required fog to produce such an effect. No one could survive there.

    I am not doubting your health concerns, but from everything you have described, the culprit is definitely NOT cigarette smoke. I would suggest that your time would be better served trying to locate the actual culprit and not in chasing shadows.

    Even if the shadows are politically correct.


    TheRedneck



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 10:54 PM
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    reply to post by Harassment101
     


    I suggest doing the test becasue if there is draft going in between the walls and your saying you and other tenants smell cig smoke, then obviously that building is not of recent construction and most likely does have that old, and very toxic asbestos insulation in the walls.

    Asbestos, is not just an insulation, but also a fire retardent material. After it ages, usually 10 or so years, and due to construction faults, if draft gets into it, then you also got other contaminants that will "stick" to this asbestos insulation, along with the cig smoke elements. You could be smelling 10 plus year old cig elements along with far more toxic elements that naturally are within asbestos.

    Ever wonder why construction workers wear air filter masks when pumping in that type of insulation or laying out normal fiber insulation?

    Its becasue both contain very fine glass strands. Once both types of insulation ages, they "let go" of some of those fine glass strands and into the air you breathe, forced through those outlets by any draft air reaching the insulation from cracks in the outer walls or by simple "creep" of construction that occurs in any structure.



    Cheers!!!!



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 10:56 PM
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    Originally posted by itinerantseeker

    You've obviously never sat next to a smelly overweight person in an airplane. It does affect my health sitting next to them, their body odor is so strong, I get ready to puke and do feel ill. I can only get up to go to the back of the plane only so much. At least when a smoker lights up, I can just move a few feet away. I'm not saying a person who doesn't shower is actually going to destroy my health and kill me but it's the discomfort of the situation is what I was getting at. But this example you quoted from my post was not the point and is obvious you didn't get it. Someone lighting up near you will not kill you. There are things out in the world that could kill you off a lot more quickly and more painfully. You've let the anti smoking campaign really warp your brain didn't you? I think you need to look at things unbiasedly.


    Underweight people can smell bad also. Let's not pick on people due to their weight. Many people struggle with weight problems for years. Look at Oprah, up and down with her weight.

    Let's just focus on BO, yes well if Body Odour is that strong, then I can understand this. I have had people come on buses, who maybe did not have places to shower and then in that case it can be bad. Did you ask to move? See in a senario like that, I would see if I could move. Or see if I could switch to the outside isle, to not bother the person, who might already be embarrsed about their BO, or not even realise it.


    I think you have missed the number of times that I have stated, that I have walked away from smokers. This is about smoking in apartments where you can not walk away.

    Hey all too familiar with things that can kill you far more quickly. Look up the term Gang STalking sometime. www.GangSTalkingUnited.com...

    I have not let the anti-smoking campaign blind me, I am all too aware of the dangers of smoking, and the problems that go with it, for smokers and non smokers alike.



    I've known lots of people who've smoked old and young. Not to many with respiratory issues and lung cancer. My grandma smoked till she died, and guess what? no lung cancer, no breathing problems. One poster wrote that when the baby boomers were young, they had to grow up with everyone smoking up the living rooms. Is everyone from that generation dead from lung cancer. I personally don't smoke, I think it's disgusting and don't like to be in a smoke filled room. But guess what, I respect the fact that they smoke and I just move away from it. You don't have to move far, just a few feet. I've also never told anyone that they should stop, it's not my place to do it, they are grown adults they know the risks of it and can decide for themselves if they want to continue it.


    I know people who smoked in the past their whole lives, and never got sick, but then there are others, who are dying in their 30's and much younger, everyone is different. I don't tell people what to do. Again I have stated, that if smoking made people's brains fall out, and if they still wanted to do it, I would try to talk them out of it, but would not stop them.

    I don't want to stop people smoking in their homes, I do want to stop them from contributing to the ruination of my health.



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:02 PM
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    reply to post by TheRedneck
     


    It's non of the above, it's winter, people don't want to go outside or on balconies to smoke anymore so they smoke in apartments, and some of the kids smoke elsewhere. So residents have made complaints about it, cause it rises up into thier apartments.

    I don't know why people think walls stop this stuff, it does not. I also don't think it's just about poorly constucted buildings. There are people even in modern buildings and it's the same problems.

    To work together to stop this, apartments would have to create a smoking room, which is a fully ventilated area, maybe glassed off, that does not let the smoke rise up, or to the sides. That's the only thing I can think of, or seperate apartments.

    Someone could make a lot of money by creating a portable smoking room, one that keeps smoke in, and obsorbs the odours, and chemicals.



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:08 PM
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    Originally posted by RFBurns
    reply to post by Harassment101
     


    I suggest doing the test becasue if there is draft going in between the walls and your saying you and other tenants smell cig smoke, then obviously that building is not of recent construction and most likely does have that old, and very toxic asbestos insulation in the walls.

    Asbestos, is not just an insulation, but also a fire retardent material. After it ages, usually 10 or so years, and due to construction faults, if draft gets into it, then you also got other contaminants that will "stick" to this asbestos insulation, along with the cig smoke elements. You could be smelling 10 plus year old cig elements along with far more toxic elements that naturally are within asbestos.

    Ever wonder why construction workers wear air filter masks when pumping in that type of insulation or laying out normal fiber insulation?

    Its becasue both contain very fine glass strands. Once both types of insulation ages, they "let go" of some of those fine glass strands and into the air you breathe, forced through those outlets by any draft air reaching the insulation from cracks in the outer walls or by simple "creep" of construction that occurs in any structure.



    Cheers!!!!


    The problem is it was fine till recently. I suspect it will soon correct itself again, but for other people, this problem is 24/7 365 days and many have children, can not move, or take legal actions, and so suffer with it. They miss time off work because the smoke causes a whack of ailments in some that it does not in others.

    People just really don't understand this, and then they get upset thinking that people are trying to take away their rights, but many are just fighting for their right to have a smoke free future.



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:11 PM
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    Originally posted by Harassment101

    It's non of the above, it's winter, people don't want to go outside or on balconies to smoke anymore so they smoke in apartments, and some of the kids smoke elsewhere. So residents have made complaints about it, cause it rises up into thier apartments.

    I don't know why people think walls stop this stuff, it does not. I also don't think it's just about poorly constucted buildings. There are people even in modern buildings and it's the same problems.



    Not true. I live in an apartment complex. These buildings were built in the mid 1980's. I have a neighbor to my right, to my left, across the hall, and below me. None of them smoke. And none of them have complained about smelling my smoking or my wife's smoking. And these apartments are very well insulated. We live in Wyoming, where the wind blows regularly around 50mph and gusts up to 70+ mph. No one complains about smelling cig smoke eminating from the wall outlets.

    And these apartments do not share air conditioner or heating vents. Each one has its own heat and air unit.



    Originally posted by Harassment101
    To work together to stop this, apartments would have to create a smoking room, which is a fully ventilated area, maybe glassed off, that does not let the smoke rise up, or to the sides. That's the only thing I can think of, or seperate apartments.

    Someone could make a lot of money by creating a portable smoking room, one that keeps smoke in, and obsorbs the odours, and chemicals.


    That wont work. Some of us like to smoke a cig just before bed time, or like to be sitting in our recliners in our underwear watching a good movie. Some of use like to have a cig right after a meal at the kitchen table.

    It wont make anyone money, it would cost everyone money because there would be no way the apartment would take on the cost of constructing a special room, plus maintain the venting system. All of that cost would get passed on to all of the renters, smokers or not. You would end up paying for a room through your rent that you will never use or go anywhere near.

    It would be better for your apartment manager to have the venting system cleaned and checked, have the outside walls checked for cracks that would allow draft air to go through them, as well as have an asbestos test done on the entire complex.

    I bet they find that building not exactly up to EPA recommended standards for multiple dwellings.



    Cheers!!!!



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:11 PM
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    Go lady! People need that type of spunk running around.

    Here's my thinking, and I do NOT smoke.

    If its your house, you pay the bills, then you do what you want inside of it. If it's bothering your neighbors whatever your doing, then be smart enough to cut it out. If anybody outside the doors of your house and hear, smell, or know whats going on then it is a disturbance and they do have the right to call the cops if it is arrguably troubling to them.

    Secondhand smoke, is bad. Any smoke is bad. But personally I'd rather have a smoker smoke in their home, rather than come outside to my fresh green enviroment and let out all of their own toxins. Itd be great if cigarettes were no longer sold, but as we all know, money shall always come out on top in the end.

    Personal rule though: Never date a smoker
    and this is where I contradict myself: If I were a smoker, I WOULD smoke outside to not smell up my house.


    So there are many different perspectives on that matter.

    But I do not believe any place has a right to tell you that you can do this or you can do that. Can you lift your own hand or does somebody else do it for you? Does someone wipe your butt for you? Do you work day in and day out to pay YOUR bills or to pay others who are too lazy to get off their big arses and would rather take the 'helping' money? Assuming nobody else does your work for you, then nobody else should make your decisions for you. Simply put.


    Conmi!



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:17 PM
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    Originally posted by Harassment101

    The problem is it was fine till recently. I suspect it will soon correct itself again, but for other people, this problem is 24/7 365 days and many have children, can not move, or take legal actions, and so suffer with it. They miss time off work because the smoke causes a whack of ailments in some that it does not in others.


    That suggests something wrong with the building, not caused by smokers. There is something that on certian times makes air go from one unit to another, ie a draft. Perhaps originating in the roof venting and then down into the walls.



    Originally posted by Harassment101
    People just really don't understand this, and then they get upset thinking that people are trying to take away their rights, but many are just fighting for their right to have a smoke free future.


    You already have a smoke free future. No one is forcing you to sit in a smoker's home or room. You cannot hold a smoker responsible or take away their right to smoke becuase of the apartment buildings lack of clean air vents or bad construction and drafty units.

    But in reality, you will never have a smoke free future. You can wipe off the face of the planet every single smoker there is, and you will still find that your breathing in far more toxins from exausts and contaminants from factories and refineries and other natural sources.

    The world's problems are not the fault of smokers nor is it the smokers fault that people have health problems. And smokers are not the guina pig to be singled out just to have someone to blame.

    If your really concerned about your health, than you need to expand on your search for the source of the problem and not take the quick easy pick on route because you just might overlook the very core of what is in fact the cause of the problem.



    Cheers!!!!



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:18 PM
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    reply to post by Harassment101

    You may not believe this, but I really joined this debate to try and help you figure out what was wrong. I have worked construction for many many years during my life. I also have a strong background in chemistry, both from college and from private study/experimentation. Add to that an honest desire to see others not suffering, and yeah, I butted my nose in to help.

    But statements like this:

    I don't know why people think walls stop this stuff, it does not.
    are simply asinine, to be bluntly honest. A proper wall (2x4 pine stud construction, insulated, with either sheetrock or paneling, built to National Building Code standards) will indeed stop any detectable influx from the other side. That's not cheesecloth you're hanging pictures on.

    The wall plugs, if they are up to code (or even close to it) are solid plastic with tiny openings for the wires and spring-action 'doors' over those openings to keep the wires in place. If they are still using older wiring, then you have sheet metal boxes with conduit attached and absolutely no holes for air to get through. All the entrances for the wires are either conduit connectors or at least sealed with box clamps. Even if this wasn't the case, any insulation inside the walls would stop the movement of air through said wall; that is the very PURPOSE of insulation, to stop air from escaping so it can insulate.

    So, my question to you becomes, do you want to alleviate your stated health concerns, or do you want to complain about smokers next door? And if you still want to just complain, are you serious about your postings, or is this some game to you?

    This is ATS. We deny ignorance here.

    TheRedneck



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:28 PM
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    reply to post by TheRedneck
     


    A fellow construction enthusiast! And as both you and I know, an aged building's insulation sags and forms huge gaps in those walls, especially that old style free-floating insulation that not only sags, but compresses at the bottom of the wall and becomes nothing more than a pile of worthless junk that also acts like an accumilator of dust, allergens, bugs, dirt, grime, and even releases some of its glass fibers into the huge gaps that are now allowing draft airflow.

    Once again TRN makes the obvious valid ponts.



    Cheers!!!!

    (offers TRN a smoke)



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:28 PM
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    Originally posted by skeptic1
    reply to post by asmeone2
     


    Won't happen; brings in way too many tax dollars.

    But, these days, nothing surprises me or would surprise me. It isn't like we are a free country any longer......

    Conservative? By banning smoking in apartments/condos?? That's a more liberal agenda....all the conservatives I know smoke like chimneys and drink like fish.


    [edit on 1/29/2009 by skeptic1]


    Neo-liberals anyone?

    Could this be their day / years of destiny with Obama leading the path just like GWB with the neo-cons?



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:37 PM
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    reply to post by RFBurns

    Yeah, did several years with the construction thing... built my new workshop myself, from the holes in the ground to the paint on the window sills. Now if I can get enough $$$ up to continue building on my house as well....

    But yeah, that old insulation can get pretty nasty after a few years. What you didn't mention is that when it sags, it opens those holes in the upper half of the wall, where there are no outlets, and gets denser down where the outlets are. If there is a draft as he is suggesting, there can't be a lick of insulation inside the wall and he would be able to see through the holes.

    I'm thinking some sort of heating system problem, since it apparently only started during the winter months. There can be some nasty stuff hiding inside those vents, and the contaminates would be spread to the entire apartment complex.

    Hey, I just thought of something... maybe the manager is sitting downstairs blowing his smoke into the air return so he doesn't get caught smoking in the lobby.


    (accepts the smoke)

    TheRedneck


    [edit on 30-1-2009 by TheRedneck]



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:43 PM
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    Originally posted by Harassment101
    Hey all too familiar with things that can kill you far more quickly. Look up the term Gang STalking sometime. www.GangSTalkingUnited.com...

    I have not let the anti-smoking campaign blind me, I am all too aware of the dangers of smoking, and the problems that go with it, for smokers and non smokers alike.


    You're being gang stalked, too? So, maybe it isn't about evil neighbors trying to kill you with their smoke, maybe it's the gang stalkers.


    Honestly, you're making claims that are flat out not physically possible. I'm not saying that you don't dislike the smell of smoke, but your health just isn't being "ruined" by it. People have offered advice, solutions, and other perspectives and you are ignoring them and I can't figure out why. Do you want the problem solved or not? If you aren't willing to even look for a solution, in favor of continued whining, what is it that you want?

    You can't claim that you don't want to take anyone's rights away and then in the next sentence say that they don't even have the right to smoke in their own home because it irritates you. That is hypocrisy. Have you considered moving if it is "ruining" your health so badly? If not, why not? Your neighbors are not doing anything illegal by smoking in their home, so you are out of line to tell them they can't. Your rights really don't trump theirs in this case.

    I said this in the other thread, but it fully applies here, too:
    On top of all the hypocrisy and flat out fanaticism in obsessing over new ways to take away the rights of smokers based on junk and/or monetarily biased science and wildly exaggerated anecdotal "evidence" of how they are on the verge of keeling over dead every time they even get so much as a hint of a whiff of smoke, they are excruciatingly patronizing to boot.

    I don't know about anyone else, but for me personally, it just makes me that much more not interested in even listening to any perspective they might have to offer. If someone has something that they want me to know, being a patronizing hypocrite is the fastest way to get me to tune you out and light up another for a nice puff so that I can irritate you as much as you irritated me.

    If the anti-smokers really cared about our health and wanted us to "think about the children", as they claim, they ought to think about losing the patronizing hypocrisy first. The victim attitude would be a fantastic second.

    Take care,
    Cindi



    posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 11:57 PM
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    Here are some facts I've been digging up.

    The gas of primary concern which causes problems from cigarette smoke is carbon monoxide (CO). Carbon monoxide is also emitted by car exhaust and other forms of combustion such as burning wood in a fireplace. Now for some facts:

    The EPA allows concentrations of up to 9ppm (parts per million) of CO in outdoor air. Values less than 4.5 ppm are considered good quality air. OSHA allows workers to be exposed to as much as 35 ppm for up to 8 hours in the workplace. For comparison, the average smoker's exhaled breath may contain (on average) 8 - 16 ppm of CO. This is, however, the exhaled breath exhaled directly into a container, not after being dissipated into room or outdoor air. Another study I found showed that levels of CO from a person smoking one cigarette in the confines of a car were about 0.33 ppm. By contrast, some recent numbers from St. Louis showed their outdoor air concentrations of CO to be around 3 - 5 ppm.

    So here's the fact: in a very small confined space with a person who's smoked 3 cigarettes one after the other, the level of CO in the car would be about 1 ppm. One third of the exposure you'd get from taking a nice walk outdoors in St. Louis.

    So do any of you GET what we're saying yet? If the ppm of CO from the smoke that leaks into your apartment from 2 adults smoking in the apartment next door bothers you (I can't find good numbers but it would HAVE to be less than 1 ppm considering the much larger cubic air space of an apartment than a car), then you should be having MAJOR problems from the CO levels outdoors which will be HIGHER than what they are inside your apartment!

    Or put another way, if you claim that the second hand smoke from a person smoking a cigarette in the car with you (0.33ppm CO) bothers you and the outside air (3 - 5 ppm and as much as 9 ppm CO or more on "bad air" days) in a city doesn't, you're lying. There is MORE ambient CO in outside city air from car exhausts and other combustion than there would be from a person smoking in your apartment with you! OSHA considers exposure of up to 35 ppm in the workplace to be acceptable, but you're having problems with 1 ppm or less? Sorry, but that's tough to believe.

    So tell us again how the air in your apartment has enough CO from the people next door smoking to bother you, but outside you're okay? The FACTS - the numbers - say different. And oh, by the way .. standing next to your gas stove or fireplace exposes you to a much higher ppm of CO than standing next to a smoker does.


    Now before you say "well maybe it's not the CO," .. what else could it be? The other major components of cigarette smoke (i. e. tar and nicotine) are solids, not gases, and as previously mentioned they are heavier than air and fall to the floor or ground quite quickly once they cool off. If anything is leaking into your apartment, it would have to be a gas, and the gas would have to be carbon monoxide if it's from cigarette smoke.

    This also points out that while standing next to a smoker outdoors or in a very large air space (like a mall) might be unpleasant due to the odor, it won't hurt you; you couldn't possibly get enough ppm of CO to affect you unless you're literally sucking in his breath. And, in fact, you COULD literally be inhaling what he exhales and STILL not get enough ppm of CO to exceed OSHA standards.

    Yeah, it can make you cough. So does inhaling anything that contains particulates (ANY kind of smoke, like wood smoke or cooking smoke) or is irritating. Do you stop using toilet cleaner because it makes you cough if you get a whiff? I thought not.

    Speaking for myself, you see, it isn't that I don't care about impacting your health, it's that the FACTS and common sense tell me that I'm NOT really having any negative impact on your health. You don't like the smell, but it's not hurting you, not any more than outdoor air in any big city does. If I believed that it's actually hurting you, I would be very concerned. But the facts tell me I'm not; you're just using the bogus "health concerns" argument to avoid the "annoyance and sensory impact" of the odor of cigarette smoke. Unfortunately, we all have to put up with unpleasant odors sometimes.

    *Heike wanders off singing "that ain't no rose, roll up your window and hold your nose .. Deaaaadd skunk in the middle of the road .. stinkin' to hiiiiigh heaven.."



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