I'm Angry with the Predominantly Visible Christian Perspective on Homosexuality

I posted this within a thread in the ATS forums but I thought it would make for a good topic here in the rant forum.

A Perspective from a Socially Conservative Youth Pastor

I am a youth pastor. I have two bachelor degrees in ministry. I will be entering seminary very very soon.

Gay rights should not even be an issue.

1. Even if homosexuality is a sin, it doesn't mean the Christian community should focus on this as any worse than any other sin or struggle. I know pastors who preach against homosexuality and tell homosexuals that they are going to hell and then go home that very same day and look at pornography. It is terrible what the Christian community has done to the homosexual community, and it isn't what Christianity is supposed to be.

2. Think about the story of when the adulterous woman was brought by the Pharisees in front of Jesus. I mean this woman was literally still naked from being caught in the act. How did Jesus respond? He said, "let whoever is here without sin throw the first stone". When all the Pharisees had left and only Jesus and the woman were left he forgave her and simply told her, "sin no more". We must have the same perspective when it comes to the homosexual community.

3. Jesus spent lots of time with tax collectors, drunkards, and sinners of all kinds. He ate with them and loved them. This is also the same approach the Christian community should have towards all people. We are all people who have done terrible things in thought or in action. We are all in the same boat. We are all on an equal playing field. God loves all of us the same no matter what we've done and who we are.

4. If your perspective of homosexuality is that it is a sin then you must also believe a homosexual person can be forgiven. Many Christians struggle with sin all their lives. The addictive sins that come to mind are alcoholism, drug addictions, pornography, lust, and I could go on and on. People who become Christians will often continue to struggle in these areas for their entire life. There will always be the threat of someone who in the past struggled with alcoholism falling back into it again simply because of how addictive it is. A homosexual can have this same type of struggle throughout their life. (note: this pertains to the argument that homosexuals can change from being homosexuals to being straight)

This pointing out of homosexuality as some kind of abominable sin above all sins has got to stop. It sickens me to no end when I see this hypocrisy. If you are a Christian and you are taking this kind of stand against homosexuality then you are going against the teachings of Jesus. You are going against God's Word.

I tried to cover many different perspectives and the arguments from Christians that lie therein. I hope this sheds a bit of light onto the hypocrisy involved in pointing out homosexuality above other sins. I think it is very important to understand the issue of homosexuality in the Christian community before we become so militantly against it.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by Bugman82]

What an incredible and delightful perspective. I am not a Christian but this is the sort of words from Christians that give me a warm fuzzy.

Well done....very well done

-Kyo

" Predominantly Visible Christian Perspective on Homosexuality"

We have a word for that, it's called "homophobia."

Otherwise good list, I commend you for writing it down.

reply to post by Bugman82


Good luck with your position! Good OP!!

You are going way against the tide of Christianity and is the very reason why many of us left it. The hypocrisy is great. Would Jesus be part of something so vile? Or didn't you already answer that question in your OP?

These are questions of conscience, and only you and God can determine if you can be part of it.

Originally posted by Bugman82
I posted this within a thread in the ATS forums but I thought it would make for a good topic here in the rant forum.

A Perspective from a Socially Conservative Youth Pastor

"sin no more". We must have the same perspective when it comes to the homosexual community.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by Bugman82]

Problem with your whole argument is that you use the Bible to back up your argument for "hate the sin, love the sinner."
The the problem is that the "Sin no more." statement precludes any support for or actual active fostering of that sin.

According to the Bible you love the person who commits the sin but in no way support their decision to be a sinner or enable them to continue in that direction.


I'm not actually saying anything pro or con against gays myself.
I'm just pointing out that if you want to use the bible as a basis for your morality you should be straightforward and not pick and choose to suit your agenda.
Can't have it both ways.









[edit on 29-1-2009 by badgerprints]

reply to post by badgerprints


Actually, you are are wrong in your assessment of my understanding.

The fact that we are all sinners and all have sinned precludes the statement, "Sin no more". That fact gives us no right to judge. An example can be found in the statement, "Pluck the log from your own eye before you point out the splinter in your neighbor's eye".

Why then can Jesus make the statement, "Sin no more"? Simply because of the fact that he never sinned. He can tell people to strive towards this idea of not sinning.

What can I do? I can point people towards God's word and hopefully we all will become better people along the way. I can only point towards God word and tell people, "Wow, look at this stuff, let's come together and strive towards these ideas Jesus presents".

I personally have the belief that homosexuality is a sin. However, that gives me no right to be militantly against the homosexual movement considering the fact that just today I struggled with lust and lying and had hateful thoughts towards people. I need to focus on my own struggles before I go around pointing out the wrongs committed by the homosexual community.

[edit on 30-1-2009 by Bugman82]

reply to post by Bugman82

OK, I am wrong in my understanding of your stance.
I must reiterate my point though.

There is a difference between empathy and understanding weakness, versus supporting the sin in an active or enabling manner.

To actively support an activity that you know is a sin seems no less hypocritical that the agressive homophobe or the or the actively public homosexual who push it into the public eye to make a point doing it in a hostile manner.

Anyway, I find both extremes on this issue repugnant. I wasn't really targeting the homosexual aspect of this. I am actually focusing more on what appears to me to be a case of two sided logic on your part.
We can respectfully disagree.

I am not so sure he is actually supporting homosexuality. It seems more that he is being tolerant IMO.

From OP

Even if homosexuality is a sin, it doesn't mean the Christian community should focus on this as any worse than any other sin or struggle.

If your perspective of homosexuality is that it is a sin then you must also believe a homosexual person can be forgiven

This pointing out of homosexuality as some kind of abominable sin above all sins has got to stop

Seems to me that OP is trying to level the playing field. All sin is bad he thinks ((or at least my interpretation))

I don't see any sort of support for the sin itself here

-Kyo

Well,
If the guy had said I'm fed up with people harassing homosexuals it would have been an open and shut case.
Me to.
I am not as sanguine about the Christians are hypocrites line when I see what in my opinion is hipocrisy on his part.
Like I said, we can respectfully disagree.

reply to post by Bugman82



Well said OP and very refreshing to hear.

It bothers me when a statement is made about Christians in general and how we feel or think.

There are many denominations within the Christian community. I was raised in the Methodist church. For many years our pianist was a lesibain. We accepted and loved her.

Over the years I held positions in business end of the church and have witnessed our church assisting gays in the same manner heterosexual people were treated.

I can imagine how the Baptist and Fundamentalist view gay members. It's usually not very well accepted.

We are all sinners. What makes one persons sin greater than another's. Let those who are sinless step forward and put the gays out of the church.

Don't hold your breath for that to happen as there are no sinless humans living on earth.

reply to post by Bugman82


actually the biggest problem I've noticed is that "religious folks" believe that homosexuality is a choice.

It is not a choice,

You don't choose to be born as a woman or man, and you don't choose what you want to like, you just like what you like.

I know a lot of gay people (they are cool) through my fiancee (she has alot of friends), and for them their lives went like this:

As a child, they were "told" many things, but were confused,
In high school that is when they "Figured things out'
and now they are in their 30s and 40s and are living the life they feel comfortable in, they didn't CHOOSE it, they just REALIZED their life;

Personally I wish it was a choice, so that we could deal with overpopulation problems by advertising the benefits of being gay
no kids!
you can do stuff together!
wear each others clothes (i know some couples that do that)!
tax breaks!
etc

hehehe...

I hope that someday pansexuality becomes the norm like it is with animals.
right now pansexuality is taboo even to "the gays" as some "its the year 1500" people like to say

google it if you don't know what it means, its a pretty cool concept, and I believe we just accepted it as a day to day thing before the onslaught of most of todays major religions/superstitions (same thing)

reply to post by Davood


My question to the Original poster..

Point #2..

Are you trying to say that you "forgive them" for being gay????

Isn't that like forgiving someone for being born with only one arm?? It isn't their fault and it doesn't mean they are "broken".

If you meant something else I apologize in advance.

reply to post by Bugman82


You cannot possibly be a youth pastor with two degrees. If this is so I would ask what your degrees are in. It must be humanities..not thinking.
Definitely not history...even Bible history...nor His Story.

The Abomination in the Word is against the sins the nations which surrounded Ancient Israel were doing. There was rampant runaway sexuality of all kinds ..both homo and heterosexualty. They were both considered abominations in the manner in which they carried them out.

Part and parcel of these abominations is the tendency for men to historically define who and what they are by their sexualty and sexual rites in counterfeit of Gods instructions. The Hebrews themselves often got caught up in these abominations...worshiping in the groves and high places in the days and in the valleys in the night. Exactly the abominations the nations surrounding Ancient Israel were doing. The Groves and High places were the Bunny Clubs of those days.
I cannot believe you have two degrees in the ministry and totally avoid this association with what God told and instructed his people not to do...even today as well as in years past. Come out from amongst them and be ye separate...not joining ..but sect..separated from.

The sad truth is that this is a sin or an abomination...both homosexual as well as heterosexual. To define ones self by their sexuality or sexual orientation. Believers are to define themselves by the God who lives in them. 24/7. They are not to define themselves by the standards of this world. Yet you make no mention of this olde teaching. None whatsoever??
I am forced to ask you into what ministry you are tutored?? I am also forced to ask myself the name of your god...for it is not the god of the Bible. IT must be another god. Something which was privily snuck in to most peoples unawares. This is precisely what the pharisees were doing and we have this record in the Word as well.

There is no instruction for a believer..Olde or New Testament to ever define who or what they are by thier sexuality or sexual orientation nor to be tolerant of this..but to come out from amongst them and be ye seperate. They were thus instructed to do this to show that they did not belong to the rest of the world and the worlds standards nor the god of this world.

Forgiveness is between them and God ..not between them and me..I am not God.

Also your quote of the woman caught in adultery ...you misquote here again....even misdirect as do so many preachers today.
There is another message here ..one not often taught by today's ministries.

The Pharisees caught a woman in adultery..in the very act..and brought her before Jesus for judgement. Yet the Pharisees claim to be keeping the Law of Moses in all parts. They caught a woman in adultery ..in the very act. You cannot catch a woman in adultery, in the very act, without catching a man. Yet they brought only the woman before Jesus. Oh ..this terrible woman. The facts are, avoided by you and many preachers, that the Law of Moses says they both shall be stoned. The law the Pharisees were keeping said that women get stoned for adultery and men do not.
That is not the Law of Moses. The Pharisees were not keeping the Law of Moses and were in fact keeping another law...a secret law...and told no one this was happening. They had in fact switched secretly to another god and also told no one. Jesus knew this when he told the woman..go and sin no more.

Come out from amongst them and be ye separate saith the Lord and touch not the unclean thing.

Bugman82,
Which god is it to which you have secretly switched...just like the pharisees...and not told anyone here???
You are teaching and preaching the world position..and not come out from amongst them and be ye separate. This is also to mix leven with unleaven new wine with olde.
Bugman82, Give me the name of the god of this world?? By name please??

Thanks,
Orangetom


[edit on 1-2-2009 by orangetom1999]

reply to post by orangetom1999

You cannot possibly be a youth pastor with two degrees. If this is so I would ask what your degrees are in. It must be humanities..not thinking.
Definitely not history...even Bible history...nor His Story.

I have bachelors degrees in youth ministry and Christian ministry.

The Abomination in the Word is against the sins the nations which surrounded Ancient Israel were doing. There was rampant runaway sexuality of all kinds ..both homo and heterosexualty. They were both considered abominations in the manner in which they carried them out.

Yes, I agree 100% with you that all sin is an abomination towards the way in which God intends for us to live. I stated clearly above that I believe homosexuality to be a sin.

Come out from amongst them and be ye separate...not joining ..but sect..separated from.

I never dissociate myself with this understanding. However, that does not mean we should not minister to them through association in a caring manner.

The sad truth is that this is a sin or an abomination...both homosexual as well as heterosexual. To define ones self by their sexuality or sexual orientation. Believers are to define themselves by the God who lives in them. 24/7. They are not to define themselves by the standards of this world. Yet you make no mention of this olde teaching. None whatsoever??

Where do I say homosexuality is acceptable? Where do I state homosexuality is not a sin? Where do I dismiss God's clear calling for us to be a holy thus separate people? I think you are misinterpreting "acceptance" with my perspective on how we should be correcting homosexuals through ministry.

I am forced to ask you into what ministry you are tutored??

I'm a combination of holiness, Wesleyan, and Mennonite traditions.

I am also forced to ask myself the name of your god...for it is not the god of the Bible. IT must be another god. Something which was privily snuck in to most peoples unawares. This is precisely what the pharisees were doing and we have this record in the Word as well.

My God is Yahweh and you most certainly misunderstand the perspective of my post. My post is purely aimed towards the Phariseeism of Christians in light of how it has treated the homosexual community.

It is the same perspective of ministry that Jesus has in His interactions with people. It is the ministry of caring for the sinner in the midst of correcting the sin.

There is no instruction for a believer..Olde or New Testament to ever define who or what they are by thier sexuality or sexual orientation nor to be tolerant of this..but to come out from amongst them and be ye seperate. They were thus instructed to do this to show that they did not belong to the rest of the world and the worlds standards nor the god of this world.

I don't advise tolerance. I advise a different approach from what the Christian community has been taking in the area of ministry towards homosexuality. You can still be holy (set apart) and interact / associate with people in the context of ministry.

Forgiveness is between them and God ..not between them and me..I am not God.

All sin can be forgiven. It is clear throughout scripture. A homosexual person can be forgiven. I can be forgiven of my heterosexual sin. I simply examined Jesus' attitude and interaction with the adulterous woman. He did not condemn her as the Pharisees would have but rather he gave her the chance to be forgiven.

My post is simply pointing to the fact that Christianity as a whole has condemned the homosexual community as the Pharisees condemned this woman. They drag them out and tell them, "you're going to hell" in many circumstances.

You are completely right when you state forgiveness is between the sinner and God. Just as condemnation is between the sinner and God.

Also your quote of the woman caught in adultery ...you misquote here again....even misdirect as do so many preachers today.
There is another message here ..one not often taught by today's ministries.

I understand the issues of Phariseeism that Jesus continuously teaches about throughout the Gospels. However, there isn't just one message within this passage. The whole passage in and of itself revolves around the issue of hypocrisy. The climax is in the statement, "All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!" This passage breathes the essence of judgment and condemnation that Jesus stands so strongly against.

Judgment that is not acceptable includes:
* Tearing people down for their sin
* Considering a person damned to hell as a result of a sin issue
* Correcting someone when guilty of the same sin
* No mercy involved in the correction method

“You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?”

Orange, to put it simply, many churches today would much rather have pews full of people who sin in a heterosexual manner rather than those who sin in a homosexual manner.

Many people today view a homosexual as automatically damned to hell. They give no chance for redemption. It often times takes much time to escape from the bondage of sin but many don't give that chance to homosexuals. They preach, "HELLBOUND!"

I also state clearly in my post that the main crux of my view centers around the idea of focusing on homosexuality as somehow a greater sin than other sins is a wrong viewpoint to hold.

I simply propose the approach of ministry towards homosexuals is a major problem. Grace and mercy are the gifts of God for us and thus we too should be full of grace in mercy when it comes to our ministry to the homosexual community.



[edit on 2-2-2009 by Bugman82]

Bugman82,

I never dissociate myself with this understanding. However, that does not mean we should not minister to them through association in a caring manner.

Indeed we associate with many peoples in our daily walks in this world. However in ministering to peoples it is a waste of time to minister to those who cannot see hear or understand. Those who have pride of life. This is a dominant trait among so many in this group who identify themselves almost exclusively by their sexual orientation.
It never seems to occur to most peoples that to identify ones self by ones sexual orientation is one of the most sorry fingerprints with which to burden ones self. For people are so much more than mere sexuality. Ironically ..many heterosexuals are just as ignorant of this as are the homosexuals. Also this trait or fingerprint surrounding pride of life is just as dominant if not more so among the heterosexual crowd. Hence it is just as ignorant and sinful for them to do so.
Almost no one including men of the cloth seem wont to teach this to their flocks...that Sexuality is a very poor standard by which to identify ones greatness. Why is this concept almost totally missing from thinking peoples today in the rush to make men great???

In my thinking...people have to be educated to get this naturally stupid that they miss out totally on this concept.

Why do not preachers teach this concept to their flocks??

I have met only a very small handful of homosexuals who can understand and comprehend this concept. These small handfuls will agree that people are so much more than mere sexuality.
The rest will resent what I am saying and then begin the process of labeling one with the various popular names to keep one off the center track or template which is that this group has as it's sole identifying fingerprint ...its sexuality/sexual orientation. Their total claim to fame is their sexual orientation. And people are mostly so far gone today ..that they don't even have enough accumen to realize how strange this is as a method of identification. Hetero and Homo both.

The equally astonishing thing to me is that so few preachers even teach this concept to their flocks.

Those who can see hear and understand some of these concepts are those to whom I will minister..for our task is to "awaken" them to whom and what they are. Most will reject it and turn to the world and the world beliefs and systems. They are dead people.
Those who can hear what is being said...are those who are awakened and alive. It is they who by the Grace of the Lord can be made by Him after His way. They have always been few in number. For the Lord's people have always been a minority in this world surrounded by this worlds "Wildlife."

This sin of defining ones self by ones sexual orientation is also found among many heteros and bears the same mark.

I am not saying here that people do not have sexuality. I am saying that it is not the crux..the everything of who and what they are.

I am also saying that more preachers need to teach this concept to their flocks such that they see that this concept ..defining ones self by their sexuality..is missing from God's Word. It is, however, to be found among the Pagan/Heathen nations and throughout history and unto today

Come out from amongst them and be ye separate and touch not the unclean thing.

I don't advise tolerance. I advise a different approach from what the Christian community has been taking in the area of ministry towards homosexuality. You can still be holy (set apart) and interact / associate with people in the context of ministry.

Good to hear that you do not advise tolerance. I don't advise it as well. For I have learned that many peoples pushing both the hetero and homo positions on sexuality are anything but tolerant. They would have everyone pushing the position of defining who and what they are by their sexuality and sexual orientation. They are not tolerant at all of anyone who teaches anything else.

Indeed, He can forgive a homosexual person as well as a heterosexual. We have the evidence of this throughout His Word. And He will do so for His purposes..not ours. If He desires to bring a homosexual person unto Him He will do the work in them to make them a workman worthy just as He has done with all His people throughout His generations. He will put people before them to awaken and show them The Way.

My post is simply pointing to the fact that Christianity as a whole has condemned the homosexual community as the Pharisees condemned this woman. They drag them out and tell them, "you're going to hell" in many circumstances.

This statement should read..the sexual community as a whole. Furthermore the Christianity cannot condem anyone, send them to hell nor save anyone. This is totally outside of their power and authority. It is all up to Him as to who or for what reasons someone is condemned or saved. Interesting to me that most Christians do not grasp this concept.

Also many Christians do not seem to grasp the concept that "all " deserve hell and damnation. All of us ..without exception. Christians especially. The Lord chooses those who are His and for His purposes to carry His name upon thier lips..daily. For He changed them and draws then unto Him for his reasons, For His purposes will He save them..not for our purposes.

Furthermore..that passage or story of the woman caught in adultery teaches the condemnation of the Pharisees. While it also teaches forgiveness...the story is mostly about the Pharisees conspiring to trip up Jesus in His teachings. They were not at all concerned with the woman caught in adultery. We see this pattern repeated over and over in the Gospels, the Pharisees approaching Jesus in an attempt to discredit him.
Interesting to me that most preachers do not teach this view of the condemnation of the Pharisees or why they were so condemned.
For there is no doubt that Jesus knew the sin of this woman as he knew the situation of the Samaritan woman at the well coming to draw water.
Most preachers do not and will not teach this passage from the view of the condemnation of the Pharisees. Why is this?? They pretty much avoid this concept..yet it is clear to most peoples once it is pointed out to them what the Pharisees were doing or conversely..not doing.

Jesus is not against condemnation..for he rebukes the Hebrew leadership indluding the Pharisees ..over and over again..even calling them a den of thieves and devils.

As to Judgement. The ultimate Judgement is His..not ours. However I have seen many on these threads as well as out here among the "wildlife" use the concept that we are not to judge others. This is false.

We are to judge "Righteous " judgement. For if we do not make judgements we will never know when to put out from the flock. We know not to mix new wine with olde, leven with unleven unless we know to judge.

This is the purpose of most of the rhetoric around the concept of tolerance. To prevent us from making "Righteous " judgement. To substitute, as were the Pharisees, the traditions of men for the Word of God. In this case there is only one "Righteous" For Righteousness is one of His names among many names.

We are to judge according to His Word..not the traditions of men.

These things in your list here are traditions of men

Judgment that is not acceptable includes:
* Tearing people down for their sin
* Considering a person damned to hell as a result of a sin issue
* Correcting someone when guilty of the same sin
* No mercy involved in the correction method

This is phariseeism.

THe "chance" to escape from the bondage of sin is done by Him..not by us Bugman82. We can only awaken them as to whom and what they are if the Lord had done His work in them and for His purposes. If they are in the book of Life. If it is their time He will do His work in them. IF it is not thier time He will not do His work in them.

I simply propose the approach of ministry towards homosexuals is a major problem

Sexuality is a major problem among men and being used to keep men stuck on the path of the traditions of men and away from the Word of God.
To keep men in continual bondage after the traditions of men. It is an attempt to bring back the patterns of the ancient Mystery Religions out into the open once again. To have them dominate the world after thier god.
And much of this is being done by default in keeping the flocks of God's people in continued ignorance about many things, including His Word.

Thanks,
Orangetom








[edit on 5-2-2009 by orangetom1999]