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Schools can expel students that 'seem gay', appeals court rules

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posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 01:28 AM
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reply to post by DimensionalDetective
 


Faith isn't about personal belief. That would be selfish. You can't belong to a religious institution without your personal beliefs in someway blending or contradicting with those of your peers. Faith is about submitting yourself to the political association, the larger social construct that is embodied, though not entirely necessarily, in the Church, but mostly in society in general, which ultimately fosters the development of safe social traditions. Trust me, Christians are more in tune with the ultimate reality of God than they were two thousand years ago. They essentially believe in something just because they can. They're much like today's hippies. Anyway, that's besides the point... These traditions I described are 'safe' because they do not tend to delineate from standard cultural mores, and so the "best" qualities (according to the Church and society in general) are safely replicated from one generation of people, and their thoughts, to the next generation. In a sense, by opening a flaw in the structural integrity of that society (that dogma-contradicting behavior is perfectly acceptable), the members of that institution begin to feel betrayed by your choice. In their perspective, it's as if you are personally rejecting each and every one of them. Now, while that might be their fault, it doesn't matter. If that's the case and "they" are deluded, "you" shouldn't be in that school in the first place. If you really have true faith, if you're a real human being: you wouldn't be going to a Catholic private school.

Also, the scenario that you provided is very improbable and inaccurate. It's also misleading to the general public. You have a responsibility, if you are at all educated in the matter, not to disseminate information that despite being substantiated with scientific evidence, is so insignificant that it's distribution straddles the realm of unethical. Just because it's possible you shouldn't run the risk of some claims turning into massively popular culture (the general public has a tendency to repeat such claims, and in this case the scenario you provided is easily replicated because of its apparently mass appeal) to believe in things such as genetic sexual preference, regardless of the biological and chromosomal mechanics of an individual.

Homosexuality can appear in a variety of ways in an individual's life, but the probability of an absolutely distinct genetic characteristic, which causes an anatomically adult male to be attracted is so low that such a scenario can not be reliably modeled to the point where you could say it as casually as you just did now in your post, as if it were a sufficient example to repute your claims. It just isn't and you're just ignorance, even if you aren't particularly ignorant. It's an unsustainable argument, even though it is probable.

What you should probably say, and this is much more ethical, is that homosexuality can emerge in so many ways, especially in youth, even though it isn't fully realized until adulthood. Mostly it is psychological. Don't be politically correct here. What really bugs me is that people often use something which has a psychological basis interchangeably with something that has a mental deficiency or a psychiatric basis. That is totally wrong. Everyone has particular psychological preferences. That doesn't make everyone crazy. It also DOESN'T invalidate people's life choices. Just as many, and probably the majority of (considering all the divorce rates) heterosexual couples might not necessarily know why it is they are together, that doesn't invalidate the reasons of those who are fully cognizant of their decision to marry. All choices are biologically reducible. But that doesn't invalidate a couple's decision to marry, gay or not. The marriage grows into one bounded by love, not social arrangement, or due to biology.




posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 01:30 AM
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reply to post by DimensionalDetective
 


Since this is a private school they can do what they want.

As a Christian school they have the right to expel anybody that does something that goes against Christian doctrine.

Being a Lesbian is not right and you are NOT BORN that way. Choosing to be "gay" is a sin ..... give me a break.

If you can be born gay can I be born a murderer or rapist or thief? Can I break the law and say that I can't help it because I was born that way and must be allowed to do whatever I want? The answer is "NO"!



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 01:31 AM
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reply to post by DimensionalDetective
 


Faith isn't about personal belief. That would be selfish. You can't belong to a religious institution without your personal beliefs in someway blending or contradicting with those of your peers. Faith is about submitting yourself to the political association, the larger social construct that is embodied, though not entirely necessarily, in the Church, but mostly in society in general, which ultimately fosters the development of safe social traditions. Trust me, Christians are more in tune with the ultimate reality of God than they were two thousand years ago. They essentially believe in something just because they can. They're much like today's hippies. Anyway, that's besides the point... These traditions I described are 'safe' because they do not tend to delineate from standard cultural mores, and so the "best" qualities (according to the Church and society in general) are safely replicated from one generation of people, and their thoughts, to the next generation. In a sense, by opening a flaw in the structural integrity of that society (that dogma-contradicting behavior is perfectly acceptable), the members of that institution begin to feel betrayed by your choice. In their perspective, it's as if you are personally rejecting each and every one of them. Now, while that might be their fault, it doesn't matter. If that's the case and "they" are deluded, "you" shouldn't be in that school in the first place. If you really have true faith, if you're a real human being: you wouldn't be going to a Catholic private school.

Also, the scenario that you provided is very improbable and inaccurate. It's also misleading to the general public. You have a responsibility, if you are at all educated in the matter, not to disseminate information that despite being substantiated with scientific evidence, is so insignificant that it's distribution straddles the realm of unethical. Just because it's possible you shouldn't run the risk of some of yours claims turning into massively popular culture (the general public has a tendency to repeat such claims, and in this case the scenario you provided is easily replicated because of its apparently mass appeal-along the lines of "it's genetic there's nothing we can do about it" this really goes hand in hand with all the hollywood gay rights proponents) to believe in things such as genetic sexual preference, regardless of the biological and chromosomal mechanics of an individual.

Homosexuality can appear in a variety of ways in an individual's life, but the probability of an absolutely distinct genetic characteristic, which causes an anatomically adult individual to be attracted to a member of the same sex is so low that such a scenario can not be reliably modeled to the point where you could say it as casuallyas you just did now in your post, as if it were a sufficient example to repute your claims. It just isn't and you're just spreading ignorance, even if you aren't particularly ignorant. It's an unsustainable argument, even though it is probable. It only hurts the progression of the discussion.

[edit on 29-1-2009 by cognoscente]



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 01:36 AM
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Yeah, that should teach them for being born that way!
Or, being honest with themselves about who they're attracted to.

... gah... religion just gets dumber every time I look at it.



I really do try to see both sides to all arguments... REALLY I do... but this is just too far.

Grow up, and realize some people aren't EXACTLY like you.

You're supposed to be compassionate and welcoming towards people who are different...
... or does that only apply to Atheists and Jesus?


Yeah. I don't see any examples of that from the religious crowd.
It's just Atheists and Jesus.


Ironyyyyyy

[edit on 29-1-2009 by johnsky]



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 01:37 AM
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What you should probably say, and this is much more ethical, is that homosexuality can emerge in so many ways, especially in youth, even though it isn't fully realized until adulthood. Mostly it is psychological. Don't be politically correct here. What really bugs me is that people often use something which has a psychological basis interchangeably with something that has a mental deficiency or a psychiatric basis. That is totally wrong. Everyone has particular psychological preferences. That doesn't make everyone crazy. It also DOESN'T invalidate people's life choices. Just as many, and probably the majority of (considering all the divorce rates) heterosexual couples might not necessarily know why it is they are together, that doesn't invalidate the reasons of those who are fully cognizant of their decision to marry. All decisions can be placed within a framework of infinite biological reducibility. But that doesn't invalidate even one couple's decision to marry, gay or not. The marriage grows into one bounded by intense emotional, communicable bonding and the experience of intimate physical interaction, whether sexual or not. It especially doesn't require the consent, or have to be legitimized by traditional social arrangements, mores or traditions, or due to some conceited notion that the "biological stock of the species is at stake...as if we need more babies anyway..."

Just as during the Industrial revolution, when agricultural societies could sacrifice a larger proportion of their farming base by relegating their tasks to machinery, and thereby freeing people to be more creative in their scientific, commercial and economic pursuits, now too have we entered a new age of human exploration. Just as the early industrials were emancipated from their farmsteads, which had for so long kept them subservient to the harsh environments associated with millenia of agricultural slavery, we in a post-industrial information society, are now capable of exploring our emotional and social appetites in any way we choose. The functions of the traditional human institutions can be relegated to a core base of conservative minorities, and even their functions can be slowly replaced by new technology, whether through stem cell research, cloning or through the use of automata and motion controlled, artificially intelligence machines. It's increasingly becoming no longer socially and functionally relevant to adhere to strict gender and sexual identities. Such a system serves no more of a function that the perpetuation of ancient social institutions such as the Church and nuclear family.

We need new faiths, new moral codes, new social freedoms. In the process we will become more creative, more productive and live happier, wealthier lives.

[edit on 29-1-2009 by cognoscente]



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 01:42 AM
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Originally posted by johnsky
Grow up, and realize some people aren't EXACTLY like you.


How true...not everyone is GAY or wants to be GAY, or wants anything to do with GAYS or their lifestyle...so as you said...grow up and get over it..NOT EVERYONE wants to accept that behavior or sexual orientation...so why is it GAYS can say grow up, GAYS can protest and demand that others accept THEIR beliefs...yet straights who want nothing to do with them are [INSERT NAME CALLING HERE].

Just get over it...if your gay..be gay, if you think your gay..whatever...stop whining and shut up. Go find a school that will accept you for who you are. Go find friends that will love you for who you are...etc....and stop thinking the world owes you something...and accept that GAY will never be fully accepted by everyone. Thats THAT!!



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 01:45 AM
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As a private religious institution, this school has the right to inforce their own rules/guidelines/codes/morals/values/etc.

People should know what is and is not Christian behavior. If people don't know about that then Christians have done a poor job in living a holy life.

Homosexuality is against Christian doctrine and this school has the right to expel any student that violates the beliefs the school has.

Another poster said you are born "gay" but I do not believe that. I believe that people that "choose" to be gay want that excuse so people will accept them and think that it is normal to be that way.

It wasn't until the late 70's or early 80's that homosexuality was removed from the mental health disorder diagnosis ..... (it is gross and not normal is you ask me) ..... why would one guy want to do anything to another? (yuck!) ...

Anyway this school can expel any student or faculty/staff that violates their code of conduct.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by nazarenec
Another poster said you are born "gay" but I do not believe that. I believe that people that "choose" to be gay want that excuse so people will accept them and think that it is normal to be that way.

It wasn't until the late 70's or early 80's that homosexuality was removed from the mental health disorder diagnosis ..... (it is gross and not normal is you ask me) ..... why would one guy want to do anything to another? (yuck!) ...


Really? Then did you choose to be straight? Did you actually have a dilemma in your teen years where you had to pick between males and females to pursue? For some reason, I doubt it.

Your last comment is just immature. It's equivalent to saying "eww, how can people eat Sushi? Just so disgusting and foreign!"

No one chooses their sexual orientation.

[edit on 29-1-2009 by GeeGee]



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 02:43 AM
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I’d like to know more about this policy because, honestly, this Christian/religious bashing isn’t getting us anywhere.

What’s wrong with giving this school the benefit of the doubt until more info is released?

Everyone knows that a common theme at private religious schools is their enforcement of sexual standards and I doubt that the school policy literally reads “…expel students who seem gay…”

I think these two girls were probably counseled several times concerning their public conduct but instead of respecting the school they probably thumbed their noses. This may have forced the school into expelling them. After all, I’m sure straight students face expulsion for continually breaking the code of conduct, why shouldn’t gays?

And again, I could be completely wrong, I’m not privy to the details of the case, but I’m not condemning anyone just because of an inflammatory .line.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 02:45 AM
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reply to post by Roufas
 


It takes some serious denial and or ignorance to say America is not a land of freedom. How would they deal with a seemingly gay student in a an Iranian madrassa , oh I forgot Ahmadinejad informed us there are no homosexuals in Iran. Our public school system goes out of it's way to celebrate diversity, because you have the freedom to choose in America you have the option to send your kids to a more progressive private school than a christian academy.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 03:22 AM
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Originally posted by GeeGee
Really? Then did you choose to be straight? Did you actually have a dilemma in your teen years where you had to pick between males and females to pursue? For some reason, I doubt it.

Your last comment is just immature. It's equivalent to saying "eww, how can people eat Sushi? Just so disgusting and foreign!"

No one chooses their sexual orientation.

[edit on 29-1-2009 by GeeGee]


I guess under your belief system it should be legal to have sex with animals and even children for that matter, cause hey, the person was born with a sexual preference for animals or children right? Or is this one of those cases where it's only right if it fits into your belief system?

I have nothing against gay people, in my mind they are just as free as me and have the right to have sex with any other consenting adult they choose; but come on, stop trying to make excuses for why they are gay. They are gay...period. It doesn't matter why. The only thing that is accomplished by making excuses for why they are gay is opening the door for predators to use a similar excuse. Most gay people (notice I said most and not all) do not have children, so I don't reckon they would much care about that; however, the rest of us do.

Religious rights are protected under the first amendment. Whether or not we agree with them. If you start trying to exclude their protected rights, you have just opened the door to loose the ones that you personally care about. Is this really what you want?

[edit on 1/29/2009 by DarrylGalasso]



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 03:39 AM
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Originally posted by rcwj75
How true...not everyone is GAY or wants to be GAY, or wants anything to do with GAYS or their lifestyle...so as you said...grow up and get over it..NOT EVERYONE wants to accept that behavior or sexual orientation...so why is it GAYS can say grow up, GAYS can protest and demand that others accept THEIR beliefs...yet straights who want nothing to do with them are [INSERT NAME CALLING HERE].

Just get over it...if your gay..be gay, if you think your gay..whatever...stop whining and shut up. Go find a school that will accept you for who you are. Go find friends that will love you for who you are...etc....and stop thinking the world owes you something...and accept that GAY will never be fully accepted by everyone. Thats THAT!!


Great post, I could not have worded that any better.

We owe these people nothing other than equal treatment UNDER the law. And the law guarantees religious freedom, so they can either accept this, or they can cry about it to the point where the majority of the population begins to question if they are worthy to have equality themselves. Everything is not about what the gay, black, or any other group wants or believes. If you expect your beliefs to be respected, you must in turn respect the beliefs of others. So if a group is unwilling to accept another group, they have no rights of acceptance either. It's really just that simple. Respect others if you desire to be respected yourself.

Again great post man.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 07:48 AM
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It is a private school so it can do what it wants!



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 07:54 AM
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reply to post by DimensionalDetective
 


How could they prove a student was or wasn't gay? I myself am not gay but I've never had a girlfriend in my life to prove otherwise. Likewise I know of gay men who have married and had children before coming out as gay.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 07:55 AM
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a couple of points:

first, no one should force beliefs upon another - be they religious, political, social or whatever. Patience and understanding go a long way; and even people with opposing views can live together and accept their differences if they choose to.

second, while church run institutions claim freedom to form their own beliefs because they do not get direct government funding, they do get relief from paying taxes, a significant benefit; and they get all the social benefits paid for by taxes -- roads, utilities, law enforcement.

They cannot claim to be above the laws of the society they are apart of. Law should always trump religious belief whenever the two don't align.

Religious freedom is not without limits.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by Venit
One thing that particularly disturbs me about this is the 'seems gay' part, and by the looks of the previous comments it's a common concern as well as the bigotry displayed by the private school.

Don't they realise the bullying this could cause, the repression of feelings of those there that are 'in the closet' as it were? This is going to cause a lot of children to be incredibly messed up in the future that attend that school.

If they cared thatmight be a concern. As it is, th school not only wouldn't care, but would most likely privately encourage such behavior in der to "Fix" the "Broken members of the congregation" In short, they don't care what damage might be caused.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 08:08 AM
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It seems to me that some organizations are going completely private to create they're own little warped world of law and justice. A school on the other hand is very scary, not in the sense of terror but as a metaphor to explain how these places can become typical "mind controlling" communities or make people very jaded and warped.

The student's must adhere to the teachers and the teachers form laws, if this becomes a trend you could see a good place to harbor a clash for humanity in 10 to 20 years. With the way technology is going i would not be hardly surprised to see Lutheran and Evangelical try and create something "odd" from it.

That's just shooting the cap gun so to speak, its just a thought.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 08:12 AM
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Originally posted by skeptic1
It is a private institution that gets no public funds. People pay to attend this school and the school can make whatever rules it wants.

I may not like it, you may not like it, but guess what?? No tax dollars, no government funding goes to this school. It is their call.....no matter how disgusting some of us find it.

By that logic it would be ok for a private school to require a strip search of all students entering or exiting the campus.
Just because they're a private facility doesn't mean they can break laws.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 08:20 AM
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reply to post by Bugman82
 


Excellent post, Bugman. As a lay leader, I am deeply troubled by the hypocrisy not only from some members in my own church but from many Christians in general. Jesus himself addresses the issue of hypocrisy over 20 times in the Gospels.

As for a private school determining who can and who cannot belong in their institution, it is their right. I will never disagree with that. I may disagree with how a private institution views specific issues, but I will never stop defending their right to set their own rules as long as it does not involve physical or psychological abuse.

Whether or not the student in question is gay does not matter. If this student is filled with the Holy Spirit, spreads the good news, and most of all "loves God" and "his neighbor as he loves himself," then this should be a very happy Christian, content in the generosity of God's grace and mercy.

~Pray for peace



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 08:26 AM
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LOL, this is really funny, they can kick someone out because they are "precieved" as homosexual. I would love to see their guidebook for that!! It would be a stereotype guide for sure! I mean really, how can they tell-for sure-. This is ripe for a lawsuit when they kick someone out. Lets see the school stand before a judge and list out the reasons they thought someone was Gay, that would be a real hoot!!!

But Judge, He is skinny, likes picking flowers and you should see him swish when he walks!!!

But Judge, She wears her hair short, wears sensible shoes and is stronger then the boys!!!

I love bigotry in the name of the Religion.



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