Should Christians do away with the Bible?

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by justamomma

 

How is the Old Testament G-d different from the New?
second line>here.

How is He the same? In Isaiah as well as other prophetic books of the Tanakh, it repeatedly says there is only one G.d and one Saviour (that being G.d too) and there is none beside Him.. specifically He says there are no other gods beside Him. Yet Jesus is worshiped as a god and the LORD G.d... also which, in Isaiah, there is only one LORD... that being G.d as well ... thus, not much room left over for a man god in the Tanakh. sorry!

[edit on 28-1-2009 by justamomma]

Isaiah 45:
2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Thought I would include one of the MANY references to such since Christians seem to pretty much keep their nose in the latter part of their book and only refer to the TAnakh when it can be fit in with their view!

reply to post by justamomma


But in Genesis, G-d said "Let us make man in our image."
There are NOT 3 Gods or two, but one.
The Trinity is not very complicated. Paganism just ran with it!
Jeshua was the only Begotten Son.

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by justamomma

 

But in Genesis, G-d said "Let us make man in our image."
There are NOT 3 Gods or two, but one.
The Trinity is not very complicated. Paganism just ran with it!
Jeshua was the only Begotten Son.

NO.. He was NOT the only begotten Son... the Tanakh.. on which Christians claim to be getting their prophecies, has already filled that role.. thank you! It did *not* say Jesus.. yeshua.. jeshua.. or any other variation the Christians like to newly name their god.

It said quite clearly the only begotten Son was Israel.. it left no room for the interpretations of the hellenistic view points.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by justamomma]

The Jews have their place in the heart of the Father and in time, after the antichrist, they will have the TRUE messiah!

Originally posted by Clearskies
The Jews have their place in the heart of the Father and in time, after the antichrist, they will have the TRUE messiah!

And our Saviour is clearly G.d! the ONLY saviour! not a man! there is no man/god! it is a pagan view.. not the view of the Tanakh!

[edit on 28-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma


Obviously, Israel didn't save me.
(I have sent them money though, for immigrants)


I'm not going to argue with you here.....

[edit on 28-1-2009 by Clearskies]

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by justamomma

 

Obviously, Israel didn't save me.
(I have sent them money though, for immigrants)

The ONLY promises to save mankind were:

1) The covenant made with Noah to never destroy mankind from the earth... thus the covenants with Israel.. you see it as a blessing and it is.. for you all!

2) As far as a gentiles soul.. if they choose to abide by Isaiah 56.. they can save that as well...

But unlike the Christian's point of view.. should they not.. the only fate their soul will meet is death.. not eternal hell fire.


Edited to clarify

[edit on 28-1-2009 by justamomma]

Sheesh! Time to start enjoying your life NOW people! Quit seeking something that doesn't exist! The future does not exist now.. and neither does the past. Live your lives NOW... if you want to save your soul, the answer is clearly laid out in Isaiah 56 and Ezekiel 18: 20-28.

Quit seeking forgiveness and start seeking the Truth!

reply to post by justamomma


I just thought i would ask a quick question how do you feel about Isaiah 53 specifically verses 4-12?

Originally posted by countduckula24
reply to post by justamomma

 

I just thought i would ask a quick question how do you feel about Isaiah 53 specifically verses 4-12?

This is speaking of what is commonly known as .. the suffering servant.

Why it isn't Jesus?

1. vs 3.. not Jesus.. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

He had more close companions and followers than almost all of us here combined.. and just look at the masses who now worship him as a god.

2. vs 4.. not Jesus.. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

There have been more men who have gone though MUCH more for those they love than Jesus did; borne WAY more grief than Jesus did; carried far more sorrows than Jesus did.. he had family and friends thoughout his supposed ordeal, no? .. He had more than I did during my lowest point of life, and others can say the same. He was not smitten of G.d; smitten of G.d means your soul... not your body!! Have you been smitten of G.d? Have you literally felt the weight of the emptiness of the world on your shoulders and yet the seperation of G.d? ... the words Jesus said do not even convey what that emotion REALLY feels like... try being rejected bt G.d and ALL mankind.. that never happened to Jesus.. ever!.. LITERALLY rejected by the world.. Jesus was and has NEVER been UTTERLY rejected by all men AND G.d at once since the time he has been in existence.

3. vs 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Not Jesus! this is speaking of the soul.. it has to be.. not a physical thing. this is the atonement of Jerusalem (seen in ch 52) by a small remnant of the house of Israel that was sent into the world as a scapegoat ALIVE!!! the bloodline having gone out into the world gene pool (as noted in vs 14 and 15 of chapter 52)... that is torture! to know you belong to something and someone and yet not know who.. to constantly be in a state of panic because you feel lost... the picture of this was the scapegoat ritual... see, when the whole of Israel offered up atonement for their sins as a nation, it was not a sacrifice.. they would yearly take a goat and lay their sins on that goat and send him out ALIVE into the wilderness... thus, the picture was drawn up for what we see in chapter 53 of Isaiah. The portion of David's blood that was sent out to find and redeem the lost sheep of Israel and then to redeem Jerusalem

vs 6. is "speaking for Jerusalem" and the lost sheep of Israel .. not the gentiles.

4. vs. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Not Jesus! Jesus opened His mouth quite a bit, no?

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

And the biggest clue above.. who shall declare his GENERATION.. it is talking about a bloodline and not ONE man!

9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Jesus had fun with the sinners. He seemed to feel right at home with them in fact. Ever not fit in with the wicked? Ever not want to condemn but seriously... your heart just wasn't there and you stick out like a sore thumb? Ever feel lost among when you look around and everyone just is going about their vain lives (as they are entitled to do) and you just felt so fiercely out of place? neither did Jesus.

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

And the above we can see that even IF (and the if is null and void because the description does not fit Jesus) it *was* Jesus, Jesus is NOT THE LORD... for the LORD took pleasure in bruising the suffering servant... yet didn't the LORD supposedly tell him "this is my son in whom I am well pleased?" ... so logic simply says that 53 is not speaking of Jesus.

And the suffering servant's SOUL is what is the offering (NOT A SACRIFICE) for sin... he shall SEE his seed, he shall PROLONG his days. That is not Jesus

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

He shall SEE the travail of his soul and be satisfied.. the suffering servant does not die... the suffering servant knows that he is walking through the fire and the suffering servant takes it.. ALIVE... for out of it will knowledge be gained and w/out knowledge, the suffering servant knows that Hosea 4: 6 will come to pass for the lost sheep of Israel.. so the suffering servant walks though.. eyes wide open , mouth shut.. through the affliction and gains knowledge to share with those he loves.

Hmmm.. not blind faith.. KNOWLEGE! That is the path to salvation.. and yet, we are told to blindly worship and have faith in this man.. where is he? Where is the knowledge that he shares that shall justify the many?

Doesn't say faith that shall justify the many!

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

How has Jesus' soul been poured out unto death. His physical body, sure.. but his soul? I don't think so. None of this fits the picture of Jesus that was painted in the NT. None of it.

But never mind lost sheep!

G.d did not leave us lacking of the knowledg of who the suffering servant was... oh no! and the name was not Jesus! Yeshua! or Jeshua!

Isaiah 49: 3 clearly shows the servant talked about in the next few chapters...

3 Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

reply to post by justamomma

anyway...afterall that waffle, back to the sayings of Jesus, What kind of bible would we come up with today?.

reply to post by Boogley

Boogley, you would probably be interested in IVAN PANIN,
(www.thehypertexts.com...)

an agnostic who ended up becoming a christian due to finding a MATHEMATICAL underlayment or structure in both the OLD and the NEW testament.

There is a lot of scientific truth in the Bible, such as mentioning the stars, being like the grains of sand in their number, now our scientists have told us that their are BILLIONS of galaxies with BILLIONS of stars, and a lot more.

See my post on the Why did God want men's foreskins thread also.

God said he would PRESERVE His word for us. He knew that modern people would one day be able to confirm the astonishing accuracy of it with SCIENCE.

Even Jesus offered to let THOMAS feel his wounds to PROVE he was the risen Lord, because he knew some people need to have proof.
Of course, we that believe by FAITH are doubly blessed to have the PROOF that the Bible contains.

Rather than doing away with the Bible, it might be a better idea for them to expand it to include all of the associated texts of the time, so that perhaps a clearer view of the overall "Christ" experience can be appreciated. Maybe gather up this stuff and incorporate it to see what kind of picture it presents:

www.earlychristianwritings.com...

It might seem a little dangerous to people who are trying to reach "perfection," or see the Bible as the perfect word of their god (and it is only our own human weakness and imperfections that prevent us from understanding it).

And some people need to have everybody believe everything exactly the way they do. Mostly because it helps them feel like they're right, and not just a dope who believes in crazy stories for no good reason.

But nobody really owns the Bible. So anybody can do whatever they want with it. They might have to disassociate themselves with a particular religion or sect. But that's the chance you take when you reach out for that Forbidden Fruit. You might get kicked out of your fool's paradise.

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
reply to post by justamomma

 

anyway...afterall that waffle, back to the sayings of Jesus, What kind of bible would we come up with today?.

Huh? What are you meaning to ask me? I subscribe to the Tanakh. Jesus has nothing to do with what I subscribe to.

Originally posted by Nohup
Rather than doing away with the Bible, it might be a better idea for them to expand it to include all of the associated texts of the time, so that perhaps a clearer view of the overall "Christ" experience can be appreciated. Maybe gather up this stuff and incorporate it to see what kind of picture it presents:

www.earlychristianwritings.com...

It might seem a little dangerous to people who are trying to reach "perfection," or see the Bible as the perfect word of their god (and it is only our own human weakness and imperfections that prevent us from understanding it).

And some people need to have everybody believe everything exactly the way they do. Mostly because it helps them feel like they're right, and not just a dope who believes in crazy stories for no good reason.

But nobody really owns the Bible. So anybody can do whatever they want with it. They might have to disassociate themselves with a particular religion or sect. But that's the chance you take when you reach out for that Forbidden Fruit. You might get kicked out of your fool's paradise.

Thats a nice way to look at it, maybe have all gospels/texts loaded and you print off the version you like ?

reply to post by justamomma



And Im happy for anyone to subscribe to whatever they chose, but as I said in the post, Ill leave the Old testament out of this (genuine apologies for calling it this)
Its interesting your thoughts, maybe do a thread on it? From what I can see your using your scripture as a source to disprove Jesus as the saviour described in Judaic Texts.

I should have perhaps posted; "Should we revaluate the current prescribed New Testament that excludes many many valid writings of peoples experiences with Jesus and start again"...and see what they come up with
Its more to try and get people researching and thinking about the concept of God instead of being indoctrinated and believing. I am in NO way saying you are wrong, nor I am I saying Christians are wrong. Questioning what you have been taught is very healthy, even if you end up where you began.

I strongly hesitate to write what I believe as I'm not sure anyone is really interested and they will only try and convert me to whatever they think. I will say. I would never take anything written that long ago literally anyway, but that's just me. To me its not ALL the word of God, rather man's interpretation of a being so past our possible understanding that I personally would never put pen to paper and say "God said or God is" This Creator would not pick certain people and say the rest are not chosen, that's just quite childish actually, Cultures do this I suspect as a way of saying I have Divine ordained right to have this land/power and that's when a whole lot of fighting begins
" I'll destroy you, God said he chose us,....Not is was ours, Get our of here, Its actually really ours " People because of fear, will fight someone they do not know or who has done nothing to them, because the fear of being wrong about what they have been taught is so strong, they will die for it....anyway, Keep going guys, this is getting interesting....

reply to post by justamomma

It seems you know the Old Testament, or at least you know how to pick and choose from it, but I'm curious, have you read the New Testament?

Since you are cherry picking through the Old Testament to try to prove that Jesus Christ was NOT the Savior, here are a few Old Testament prophecies to think about, that Jesus fulfilled.

what is a prophecy? It is God speaking through a servant-a prophet-to describe a coming event long before it happens. There are over 400 prophecies in the Old Testament which point to the coming Messiah and to His life and death. Jesus Christ perfectly fulfilled every single one of them. The odds of someone doing that who was not the Messiah are too great to even figure. It is impossible.

Isaiah 7:14 says, "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel." Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary.

Micah 5:2: "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of there shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old; from everlasting." Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Also prophesied were events like John the Baptist preparing the way, Jesus teaching in Capernaum and Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a colt.

Psalm 41:9 even foretells Judas' betrayal, "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

And Zechariah 11:12 perfectly predicts the payment Judas would receive, "And I said unto them, if ye think good, give me my price thirty pieces of silver."

Jesus' death on the cross was prophesied to the smallest detail.
Isaiah 53 spoke of His sacrificial death paying the price for the sins of all. Psalm 109:25 tells that He would be mocked by those who watched. Psalm 34:20 records the miracle that would happen when none of His bones were broken. Psalm 22:18 says that people would gamble for possession of His clothing. Psalm 31:5 contains the words that Jesus said when He committed His spirit into His Father's hands. Isaiah 53:12 says that He would plead for the forgiveness of those who persecuted Him. Amos 8:9 records the darkness that would follow the death of the Messiah. As I said, there are over 400 prophecies that Jesus perfectly fulfilled. This evidence of His Lordship is indisputable.

From the book of Matthew, New Testament

17So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel

reply to post by sezsue


Who is cherry picking? Do you really want me to put those verses BACK into context for you?? You may have not done so with the NT, but all those verses from the Tanakh have a context that *you* are NOT posting. lol

I grew up in the NT... sunday morning and evening services I was required to attend as well as Wednesday night services, prayer group and visitation on Thursday nights, and attending the same christian school from pre-k to graduation.

So.. yeah, I'd say I was versed in the way of the NT. Was a very difficult process to unbrainwash myself to see the Truth in the section that we DIDN'T get fed much of.


[edit on 28-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
I should have perhaps posted; "Should we revaluate the current prescribed New Testament that excludes many many valid writings of peoples experiences with Jesus and start again"...and see what they come up with

Its more to try and get people researching and thinking about the concept of God instead of being indoctrinated and believing. I am in NO way saying you are wrong, nor I am I saying Christians are wrong. Questioning what you have been taught is very healthy, even if you end up where you began.

I love this!! I completely concur with your efforts.. but would not the first way to get people to think about why they believe something, in this case at least, be to prove that their premise doesn't even support their beliefs?

I do concur though. I certainly have more respect for people who do not blindly believe in ANYTHING than those who do and then try to force it on others through guilt, shame, fear, and LIES!

As I have repeatedly said.. never follow what I say as far as your beliefs go. I am but a teensy weensy fraction of mankind. If someone says they believe because *I* said it.. then they do not KNOW the truth at all..

I have a thread on exactly what you intended your thread to bring forth. I like yours as well.. Just to make it clear.. I am not trying to prove G.d to anyone or the Tanakh.. I am here for exactly what you stated the point of your thread to be.

Edited to add: BTW, I do not believe that G.d is bound to the Tanakh.. In fact, I came to know Him outside of first.. just recognized His work in the Tanakh.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by justamomma]