Islam: An intolerant, inconsistent fallacy

The proof is the Quran and thier faith, other than these 2 vairables, many muslims have a hard time proving these so called miracles. As I have stated in threads before, Islam is never questioned for it is a form of habituation, a tradition that definition in the forum of humana.

Why question tradition, for it is what defines us a society..

Alot of my freinds are Muslims, always trying to teach me the miracles of the Quran ( not to convert, but to teach, discuss as freinds ).

lol

Deep

[Edited on 27-5-2004 by ZeroDeep]

I see God relected in Jesus's words of caring for the poor and FORGIVING others instead of killing them. You come across very arrogant and should research other religons and pagan religons that Muhammad gathered info from while creating a religon "that would dominate the Earth".

Im sorry, but the Christian doctrine is a collective of pagan religions aswell. Christianity is also guilty in killing in the name of God.

Deep

There is a slight difference but an important one none the less. If the followers of Jesus actually listened to him 5he crusades would have never happened. When the followers of Muhammad kill it is by order. For example: If a young Muslim were brought to America and went to college and learned abouth many religons and found one better suited to HIM, and then he traveled home with the knowledge, according to Muhammad HE MUST BE KILLED.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 63, Number 260:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Pretty tolerant stuff from a man of Alllah huh.

Those are quite some harsh words, but I too have seen evern harsher vomited by the Bible, it the least to say, is not safe in its own right, for many verses of the Bible are just as graphic and eccentric.

Topical, yes, these were written pertaining to a certain time perioud and demograph. They are not universal, nor are they accepted universaly by secular society as such.

Illmatic67, seems to have let his pride superimpose any sense of cognition left in the man, at one time he would have me believe that the first Sikh Guru was nowhere near a mighty prophet as Muhhamed was, though a quike compare and contrast of the teachings will tell you otherwise. And it also to be noted that, Sikhism is strictly against converting of others, against the sending of missionaries, we have never embarked on holy wars/crusades, and thus lacked the voice to make its prescence known.

Its history by far is the most peacfull, as Islam had waged war on the land and Sikhs had defended the meek.

Deep

[Edited on 27-5-2004 by ZeroDeep]

[Edited on 27-5-2004 by ZeroDeep]

I am not defending the Old Testament either. It is chok full of hatred. Why does the God of the Old Testament tell us that jealousy is a sin when he claims to be a "jealous God". He is not following his own rules. I try to guide my life on the spirit of truth and word and wisdom from the greatest teachers, Buddha, Jesus, Confusious. I do not include Muhammad in that group because he was a : politician, military general, statesman. Budda or Jesus never led their followers into battle to kill in the name of their respective "religons". I think organized religon is dangerous if overblown. Why is Islam growing so fast in American when most of these converts aren't even reading Arabic. How can the Quran really be called a Miracle if a westerner cannot understand it? It would be a miracle if it translated itself for everyone on the planet but sadly it does not and therefore I don't consider it a miracle by any strech of the imagination.

BTW I agree with this point made by a man who denied to be kept a slave.

A great majority of Muslims live in denial. Those who don't are the fundamentalists who are so brainwashed that they actually think that killing is good, bombing is holy, stoning is divine mandate, beating wives is prescribed by God, hating the unbelievers is what God has told them to do, and terrorism will take them to Paradise. Apart form this group that unfortunately constitutes the majority of ignorant masses (see Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc) those Muslims who have come in contact with the humanistic values of civilized world and like it, either know nothing of the ugly truth of Islam or they deny it.


4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers

This is another outright lie. Muslims have lost many wars. The Taliban must be skipping that verse in their reciting as we speak because the "infidels" kicked the # out them.


This is ridiculous. According to this following passage Mother Theresea despite her near perfect life of giving and suffering will burn in hell forever. What a joke.


3:85, If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

That passage bothers me more than any other. This is pure hatred for the human race as only 1 in 7 are Muslim. The God of Islam is no God at all but a figment of Muhammads imagination or lucifer. Why would a fair God throw Mother Theresea into a boiling pit of death for taking care of the sick and needy her ENTIRE LIFE but claiming Jesus Christ as her saviour and not "Allah". That is stupidity on the highest level. I am sorry if this offending muslims but I can't say it any other way. The internet is awesome as I can type these things without the fear of being killed as death is subscribed to those who quesion "Allah". Again, what a joke.









[

[Edited on 27-5-2004 by wooten123]

It's ironic how you rant about how evil Muhammad was and how Islam is a religion of hate without proof but you seek proof of the good things Muhammad did?

Wooten, when you start to think on your own you are going to realize two things:

A) Don't rant about things you don't know about.
B) Once you read Islam by yourself you will look at your previous posts here and laugh at yourself.

Let's begin.

Muhhamad wrote a book saying he is the prophet of a God that wrote the book. No proof, just scare tactics.

How many times do I have to say it? The Prophet Muhammad was illiterate. He couldn't read or write. Muhammad never claimed he was a prophet. If you knew Islam you would know this. When he received his first revelation from God it took him 2 years to actually start preaching the word of God because of his fear of the Quraysh.

He does not want me to question his writings? He still wants me to believe the Earth is flat (you surely cannot convince me that a carpet is anything other than flat, I'm sorry) when that is an outright lie?

Give me the verse where the Earth is flat. Oh, while your at it, you might want to visit this website.

members.lycos.co.uk...

Your God is intolerant of other religons

"Those who believe in the Qur'an, and those who follow the Jewish Scriptures, and the Christians and the Sabians, and who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with Allah: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." Surah 2:62

Please retract that statement ASAP.

Why can't people just admit they don't know? What happens in the afterlife? According to Islam you go to a brothel with 72 virgins, but your only allowed four wives on Earth but the leader was allowed 12 including a 9 year old.

Again, give me the verse... and try not to use an anti-Islamic website.

Oh, Muhammad did marry a 9 year old you are right. It was a custom back then but he did not consumate the marriage until she reached proper breeding age.

I will not "submit" to a God who would throw a fifteen year old Buddist boy into an eternal lake of fire for punishment just because...

Allah wouldn't either, sorry to tell you.

The "Eternal lake of fire" is a Christian concept, not an Islamic concept. Read the Islamic concept of hell before making an igorant statement like that. In Islam, God will throw evil people in hell but then he will hear the prayers of His people in Heaven and he will grant mercy to those in Hell and he will let them into Heaven and Hell will be no more. That my ignorant little friend is the Islamic view of hell.

Can you understand I would rather spend an eternity with a God who accepts me as I am and is full of love and compassion and does not want me to kill but turn the other cheek?

Allah will love you then.

You come across very arrogant and should research other religons and pagan religons that Muhammad gathered info from while creating a religon "that would dominate the Earth". I am sorry you worship a jealous, vengeful, arrogant, intolerant, kindergarden age Allah playing in the sand stating he is all-powerful and makes ants run from armies.

Purely hypocritical statement.

Be careful how you choose your words.

I think that anyone who kills in God's name will burn in hell and it seems a lot of Muslims are doing that lately by the command of Muhammad. Jesus taught me to forgive you and not cut of your head. Get my drift?

The Prophet Jesus (PBUH) taught a lot of things. He taught love, mercy, and passion.

But just because he taught that doesn't mean his followers did the exact opposite.

You want to talk about love teaching read Muhammad's last sermon on Mount Arafat before his army entered Mecca.


I find it purely comical how you claim yourself to be a Christian and yet you hate Islam and Muhammad for no reason. I bet you are one of those people who didn't know Islam until 9-11 and because of 9-11 you swear you know everything about Islam. I think you are a sad person who bashes other people's religions at his expense to glorify his own despite you do not epitomize what the Prophet Jesus taught. So sad.

You, need, to, read.

[Edited on 5-27-2004 by Illmatic67]

3:85, If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).


Am I reading this wrong illimatic? I will not take that statement back as I can see no other way to take this out of context? This statement means all Hindus, Buddhists, Vegans, Humanists, Christians, Jews and the thousand other religons out there have followers on the path to hell ACCORDING YOUR QURAN. Again what a joke.

April 08, 2004
Survey: 81% of Detroit Muslims want Sharia in Muslim Countries

"The Detroit Mosque Study: Muslim Views on Policy and Religion," by Ihsan Bagby of the Institute for Social Policy Understanding, a Muslim group.

On page 37 of the report is this:

Mosque participants were asked, whether they agree or disagree with the statement, "Shari'ah should be the law of the land in Muslim countries?" Shari'ah refers to Islamic law.
Apply Islamic Law in Muslim Lands
Strongly Agree � 59%
Somewhat Agree � 22%
Somewhat Disagree � 8%
Strongly Disagree � 3%
Don't Know � 8%


If accurate, this is extremely disturbing. It means, in effect, that most survey participants oppose democracy in Iraq and elsewhere in the Islamic world, and want to see Sharia oppression of women and non-Muslim dhimmis instituted throughout Muslim lands.

It also raises questions, unanswered by the survey, about what kind of government these survey participants would like ultimately to see in the United States.

Daniel Pipes raises other serious questions about this survey here. Among many other problems, he points out that the survey results are being spun in a misleading way. At FrontPage are numerous links to the sources Pipes cites.

A Detroit-area Islamic organization, the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding, released a survey of Detroit Muslims, A Portrait of Detroit Mosques: Muslim Views on Policy, Politics and Religion, on April 6, 2004. Written by Ihsan Bagby, associate professor of Islamic studies at the University of Kentucky, and conducted in mid-2003, the survey�s key thesis, according to the sponsoring organization itself, is that �The vast majority of Muslim Americans hold �moderate� views on issues of policy, politics and religion.� Bagby also emphasized this point in a newspaper interview: the results, he said, show that �the mosque community is not a place of radicalism.�
Bagby�s study received fair media coverage and some headlines dutifully reflected the official line:

� Detroit Free Press: �Muslims' goals: Be active, be moderate.�

� Detroit News: �Metro Muslims eschew radicalism: Study shows most hold moderate views, want to integrate.�

� Scripps Howard News Service: �Survey Finds Muslims are Moderates.�

In addition, before the study�s release, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the leading militant Islamic organization in the United States, trumpeted the results on its website; and its spokesman, Ibrahim Hooper, lost no time exploiting the alleged results of Bagby�s study. One article describes him pointing �to a new survey of the views of mosque leaders and congregants in Detroit � as an example of the fundamental moderation of U.S. Muslims.�


I don't see 81% supporting Sharia as moderate. Sharia law contains numerous provisions that deny tenets of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Conversion from Islam is punishable by death; non-Muslims are second-class citizens; a woman's testimony is not admissible in her own rape case, and on and on. I document these and more in Islam Unveiled and Onward Muslim Soldiers.

If these Detroit Muslims were truly moderate, they would renounce Sharia.

www.jihadwatch.org...

4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers.

Did I miss something? Your Allah lied to the Taliban because as far as the rest of the world knows the Taliban got waxed. Refute that.

Originally posted by wooten123
3:85, If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).


Am I reading this wrong illimatic? I will not take that statement back as I can see no other way to take this out of context? This statement means all Hindus, Buddhists, Vegans, Humanists, Christians, Jews and the thousand other religons out there have followers on the path to hell ACCORDING YOUR QURAN. Again what a joke.

Truly funny.

Did you even know that Islam was even as religion when it first began? Do you know how old Islan is? What do you think the Prophets Adam, Enoch, and Abraham were? They were Muslim because they SUBMITTED TO GOD.

That is what Islam is. Islam is not a religion. Islam is SUBMITTING TO GOD.

JEWS SUBMIT TO GOD
CHRISTIANS SUBMIT TO GOD
MUSLIMS SUBMIT TO GOD

When born Jew, your duty is to submit to God.
When someone converts to Islam or Christianity, their duty is to submit to God and to live for Him.

That is what it is meant for that verse.

Islam is the unification of the three Abrahamic religions. It's so sad how you are.

Did you even read my previous post?>

Hey. Guess what? You are looking pretty ignorant right now. Buddhists submit to no God=Burn in Hell. Hindus have many Gods=Burn in Hell. Taoist submit to no God.= Burn in Hell. Your Allah is intolerant and you oblviously have no knowledge of other religons.

I did notice how you skipped the Taliban statement. Really no way for you to explain that one huh.

If I were a Taliban I would be pissed at "Allah" as they were defeated easily. I would consider "Allah" a liar.

[Edited on 27-5-2004 by wooten123]

Originally posted by wooten123
4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers.

Did I miss something? Your Allah lied to the Taliban because as far as the rest of the world knows the Taliban got waxed. Refute that.

Allah didn't grant the Taliban anything. Be careful of your blasphemous statements, they will come back to you.

I would say the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT granted the Taliban their rise and decline.

Didn't God tell David to kill, kill, and kill non-Jews who stood in his path?

Didn't God tell Moses to kill a man who picked up a wooden stick on the Sabbath?

Didn't God grant Joshua victory over the Caananites?

Didn't God tell David that he stood invincible because God was watching over him?

It's funny how you mention Muhammad this, Muhammad that without mentioning the OT.

You should be bashing them as much as Muhammad.

Me, I don't have that option. I know God was a good despite Him asking Abraham to kill Isaac. I don't have the luxury to question God's authority. It seems Christians do.

David killed thousands, he's a Jewish patriot and savior.

Muhammad also killed, but he was a loving man who restored the religion of PAGAN RIDDEN ARABIA.

Now I am going to the sports bar to watch the Laker game. I don't want you to think I chickened out. Just post all the things you want and I will knock them out one by one tomorrow.

Originally posted by wooten123
Hey. Guess what? You are looking pretty ignorant right now. Buddhists submit to no God=Burn in Hell. Hindus have many Gods=Burn in Hell. Taoist submit to no God.= Burn in Hell. Your Allah is intolerant and you oblviously have no knowledge of other religons.

[Edited on 27-5-2004 by wooten123]

Ok... Christian you are, correct?

Tell me Mr.Christian guy what will happen to the Hindus and the Buddhists and the Taoists on the Final Judgment?

ANSWER ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to agree with Illmatic on this issue. Islam is the religion of Abraham, just as Judaism and Christianity were. If you look at the theory behind each religion, Judaism is (according to its own doctrine) the rectification of pagan worship of God from a idolatrous to a non-idolatrous form. Christianity is (according to its own doctrine) the rectification of Jewish worship of God from an idolatrous to a non-idolatrous form. Islam is (according to its own doctrine) the rectification of (guess what?!) Jewish and Christian worship of God from an idolatrous to a non-idolatrous form. Now, I myself am a Christian, but I have never felt that I disagreed with Islam or the words of the Quran. I think the only major difference between a devout Muslim and myself is that I believe that Jesus was somehow different from the other Prophets (as, indeed, I believe that other Prophets in the past were also Jesus and were different in kind from the rest of the Prophets), while the Muslim believes that all Prophets have been Prophets on the same footing (although not of the same, if you will, eminence), and that Muhammed (MPBUH) is the capstone of the Prophets, bringing the final revelation.

Now, if you don't agree with the way Islam is carried out in much of the Middle East, then bully for you. I'd be so bold as to suggest that the Prophet (MPBUH) wouldn't like the way it works there either. If you don't like the entire body of the Shari'a law, then I'd agree with you too (although the decision is not mine to make), since I think we can be fairly sure that at least some of the Shari'a law IS NOT traceable back to the Prophet (MPBUH). If you really want to understand Islam, though, why not read the Quran? Just as if you want to understand Christianity, read the New Testament. Then make your own decision about the nature of the faith. But don't blindly quote arrogant readings of the Shari'a and claim that you know what Islam is all about... that's as silly as quoting some statement Tammy Faye Bakker made and claiming you know all about Christianity.

Dear wooten;

Once again! you left me no choice but to reply even if you were not addressing me and thank you for your kind words about me!

You wrote:
Yobel has been professional and courteous, and while he will not be able to tell me why Muhammad messed up and called the Earth flat and Muhammads "God" didn't know something so simplistic.

Why do you think I will not be able to tell you why Allah called Earth flat?
I told you before to be patient as I'm preparing a lenghty answer for all your claims.

Again you misunderstood the verses in the Koran that speaks of the earth.
There are many verses in the Koran that speaks of earth.
You take the understanding of phrases and words in the koran in their literal meaning. I would love to put all the verses and explain them to you but AGAIN, Arabic is a foreign to you.

read the following:

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. Isaiah 11:12

Now do you want me to understand that earth has corners? And if it does, how can an oval shape has corners? Only a flat surface has corners.
I know you going to tell me that God is speaking of west, east, north and south. So me too I have an explanation about the verses that says that earth was flattened!

Another one:

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. Psalm 93:1
You want me to believe that earth doesn't move and can never move?

Another one:

that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?
Does earth has an end? Of course not!

You see my point Wooten!? Don't take the literal sense of the words. I don't !even when it comes to the bible! And I can give a dozen of other verses in the bible that if taken at literal meaning would sound ridiculous!
Let's not do that!

Read this in the Koran The Big bang )

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were once joined together (as one unit of creation), before we split them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? 21:30

Now Mohammad certainly had no telescope at that time nor did he copied it from any other scriptures, or did he?


I hope that all of us can debate nicely without any cursing or labeling so as not to loose focus and learn.

Yobel

I believe every person is judged by their heart and that hell is a scare tactic to keep people in line for political reasons and order. If you truly want to be good and search for the spirit of truth you will find it and it will accept you. The Bible and Quran are corrupted documents and were written by leaders with power and control in mind. Good enough?


Edited to add. There are thousands of other religons besides the Middle Eastern religon. The Middle Eastern religons have killed hundreds of millions more than all the other religons on Earth combined and who has the right to the truth?????

If you want to know my beliefs center around great teachers and native american beliefs (the Great Spirit). I think giving God names like Allah, Jesus, Elohim, just divides rather than unites. It is a stupid fallacy and I really don't think that the great spirit cares which road you take as long as you know He is at the end of your destination. You dig?

[Edited on 27-5-2004 by wooten123]

[Edited on 27-5-2004 by wooten123]

If you believe that, you're welcome to your belief. It's certainly one way to look at the Bible and the Quran. But I don't see it that way, nor do many others. I happen to believe that both of these holy books were inspired by God, and there's another common opinion that the very letters of the books themselves were chosen directly by God. It is every person's right to decide where they sit on that continuum... just don't be a fool by making fun or light of a religion you know nothing about because you don't want to read the book.

I have read the Quran but not in Arabic so I guess that does me no good and the other converts who have read in English are not really getting the jist of the situation either. You are demanding answers so I will demand one, A young Buddhist boy watches his father die because he will not convert to Islam. Should the boy A) Convert and hide his hatred towards the men and religon who did this to his father. B) Tell the murderers to kiss his ass and then be killed and go to a pit of eternal damnation? C) Run like hell. Do you see how absurd this situation is? They would have been better of being LEFT ALONE. That is why I do not agree with any religon or institution that FORCES RELIGON ON OTHERS. I am cherokee Indian and my ancestors were slaughter because they would not "convert". Islam is now going through this pain and hopefully as they are enlighted and quit taking the Quran so seriously they will stop as most Christians have, and I know Jesus spoke from the true spirit but his followers were decieved by satan as are the Islamic terrorists.

Yes Wooten , Mohammad did mary a 9 years old as the other brother told you it was a custom which is still being practiced today.

What about Abraham who married his own sister in the bible?
So if you consider what Mohammad did as a crime of pedophelia, Abraham happens to be the great grand father of mary the mother of Jesus "Your God". The mother of Jesus (your God) came from incest?

From where did Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and others like Zoroasterism etc. emerge? The Middle and Near east and the vast region ruled at one time from Sumer; and it continued to be dominated by that knowledge base and belief system in the thousands of years that followed Sumer's demise. The story of King Sargon, the Akkadian king who conquered Sumer, is an excellent example. They said that his mother bore him in secret and floated him in a basket on the River Euphrates, where he was found and brought up by another family. The Israelite/Hebrews, or rather their manipulating priests , the Levites, later took this ancient story from the Mesopotamian accounts and used it in the story of Moses. The Old Testament is founded on Sumerian and Egyptian accounts,edited and rewritten as required, to create a manufactured history and religion called Judaism. The New Testament is based on symbolic stories repeated over and over in the thousands of years before it was compiled and these relate to a large extent to the Sumerian and Egyptian religion of Sun Worship and Mystery school rituals. Depictions of Isis being the mother god and her saviour child Horus parallels the virgin mary story and jesus.

The New Testament texts, in turn, created a manufactured religion and history called Christianity. King Sargon was a major Sun worshipper and these rulers of the Sumer Empire were given the title, "Son of the Sun". To the Sumerians, the sun was a symbol of 'God' and from this title Son of the Sun or Son of God. Sumerian emperors were also often known as "The One Lord". You find the same story in Egypt because the 2 cultrues were so connected. Then you have your splinters and mutations that spawned from this.





Waddell is correct