Islam: An intolerant, inconsistent fallacy

Originally posted by Solarix
This is not from a christian or jewish perspective; I thought I would get that out of the way to begin with.

Is Islam a religion where you have to check "free-thinking" at the door and embrace a tyranical, murderous, intolerant worldview?

IMO: YES!

1. How can the Koran be the infallable word of God when it contains nonsense like the earth is flat and the sun moves around the earth.

2. How can it be said that Mohammed was a loving and compassionate man yet he killed, robbed and sadisticly tortured people. ie: a man was murdered for making fun of Mohammed in poetry.
Also, Mohammed tortured and punished some by chopping of their arms and legs, burning out their eyeballs and killing them slowly in the harsh elements of the desert.

3. Why do Muslim claim that Mohammed was a liberator of women when it is taught that women are:
a) inferior to men
b) must obey their husbands - or be dealt with harshly
c) Mohammed said that hell was filled with women due to disobeying their husbands
d) Husbands can beat them because Allah promotes this in the koran.
e) Have no essential rights like child-custody and the right to divorce.
f) Court testomony is worth only half of the testomony of a man.
g) She has no autonomy, first her father controls her then her husband.
h) Allah wants them to stay at home and not to came out.
i) They are forbidden to join ceremonies such as funerals.
j) The Koran speaks only towards man as if woman arent full human beings.

4. How can Muslims say that Mohammed was a perfect human-being or even a good man and his example should be followed when it is known that he did a 9-year old girl when he was 53?
Don't many muslims follow this example because the best muslims should follow the Sunna?


5.How can it be said that Islam is a religion of peace and love when the koran teaches that non-believers are forbidden to be friends of muslims and in fact the koran promotes killing them and otherwise abusing them?

Sheesh!

Just by the title of this thread, I think one can assume that somebody's got a bit of a prejudice problem...

OK, so here I go, trying to make a good comeback for what you said!

1. "The world is flat nonsense"....yeah ummm let's see that was only considered SCIENTIFIC TRUTH at a point in time, so go tell all of the people that lived during that time the world is round, you'll be the one considered stupid. Plus, look at the bible. It basically says knowledge comes from trees and when bushees catch on fire you can talk to God. Why aren't they ALL nonsensical?

2. Mohammed was a murderer? Did he personally chop off people's legs? Or was it his overly-passionate followers? I'd like to see some backup for your statements. Regardless of their truth value, it would still be nice to know that you aren't pulling this out of your ash. maybe some actual quotes from the Koran or possibly some commentary by a noted literary critic? Eh? if you don't, then I could run around saying Moses was a child molester without proving it.

3. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but NEVER have I heard Mahommed been called the "liberator of women." Sounds more like a title Ellen Degeneres or Mellissa Etheridge. But seriously, where did you get that? Now, last prophet of God, the true and final word of God, and the messiah. Those are names I HAVE heard. Oh, and don't single out the Koran my friend. Go look at jsut about every book of ancient text. Oh, and half of the laws you spat out were laws right here at home (or at least, my home). Yes friend, the good old US of A. Women's testimony was alwys only worth half of a man's. And since when did Allah tell women not to come out? i would like some proof, because I'm stubborn.

4. OK, once again, I'd like some proof. And don't tell me to go researching, these are your claims. Sure, to me, a 53 year old and a 9 year old seems pretty screwed up, but news flash! There is no universal code of ethics or an understood moral law. Different cultures, different morals. Look at it man: cannibalism, slavery, capital punishment, etc. etc. etc. Different places, different morals. But hey, you could throw away the whole paragraph I just gave but the question still hangs....WHERE DID YOU GET THAT FROM?

5. Wow...so does Judaism. it's not surprising. hey! Go read a line from Revelations in which it basically says all non-believers, murderers, thieves, blah blah blah shall be cast into the fiery pit of Hell. Now that seems a little drastic doesn't it? Throwing a simple non-believer in the same horrible fate as a murderer. They ALL promote violence towards those who don't believe.

Basically, your claim is lame. Get some proof and maybe I'll at least consider it...

but probably not.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
It is Islam Countries that have oil as almost their only Indutries. It is Islam that has the highest birth rates on the planet. It is Islam that has a mortal enemy, the hate of which it will not let go of. It is Islam that is expanding in all parts of the world. It is Islam that thinks I'm the Infidel. It is Islam that has no respect for what I might choose to worship. This is how it affects me and why I am concerned. Though I hold most religions in equal contempt, Islam is the very dangerous one right now and is worth disscussing.

It the Islamic countries that have oil, that is why a instigated holy war is currently being waged, so that control of the land of with the oil can change hands. So it's their fault the geography of their land blessed them with oil? I don't get it? what's the point? Just because they have oil, they need to do what??? Change their beliefs?

You say it's Islamic countries that have the highest birth rates. Why not say it's Black countries, or African Countries? I say it is IMPOVERISHED THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES IN THE CONTINENT OF AFRICA that have the highest birth rates. A few years ago, it the was Indians and Chinese who had the highest birth rates, was there a religious conspiracy then? High Birth rates are directly correlated with the standard of living and economy of a country, not just the religion.

And no other religion has a mortal enemy? What about Christianity? Aren't all the naysayers and non believers which basically cover all other religions the mortal enemies in a sense? Isn't that why there is the need to convert the world? Which other religion besides Christianity, went to strange lands and forced their beliefs on others? Have you seen any muslim or hindu missionaries sent to every remote location on the world to convert people? NO.

No Islam, doesn't think you are a personally an Infidel.
It is our government and it's blind followers who wage wars and interfere in natural progress of a people and their religion that are considered the infidels. Islam the religion is not attacking you personally or endangering your life. This is not a holy war people, do you not know the real reasons why Bin Laden hates the U.S and the policies that the U.S upholds that makes them want us out of their affairs.

Why can't you people not see that there are extremists in every single religion. It is wrong to condemn an entire religion because of the extremists. You only need to look at history in general to see that at different times, there is a different bad guy and they come in all races and religions. Your governments are creating this holy war for you not Islam the religion.
I personally blame British Imperialism for the majority of the problems we face today.

So you people understand where I am coming from with this, let me first say again I am not a Muslim. I am related to Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Atheists, you name it, I have known it and been exposed to it. I come from a family with extreme religious tolerance for others. I come from a country which saw years of religious intolerance between Hindus and Muslims. My family was personally affected by these clashes. You Christians claim holy war and make it a global scale, which it isn't. In other parts of the world, these issue are dealt with within a community and a country. The radicals on each side do see the errors of their ways, or they are replaced by their followers who see the errors of their ways. This problem is not a global scale issue, and making this into a Holy War and Jihad is the work of corrupt individuals trying to bring all people down and wreak havoc upon all societies."

It is useless to argue this issue, when your minds are not open to see the truth that laid infront of your eyes. Us here, who oppose your opinions, provide you with links to read, ask you to read the koran for yourself...again i stress you will see it is the same as the other so called holy books...i've said my say...peace out

[Edited on 4-14-2004 by worldwatcher]

Originally posted by American Mad Man
IMO, this thread does nothing to promote ignorance - if anything it is DENYING IGNORANCE. Like this place is supposed to. The fact is that Islam IS the most represive. The FACT is that Islam IS the only one to promote TERRORISM! Name one Christian or Jewish sect that promotes death of ANY KIND IN THE MODERN ERA. You can't! The FACT is that Islam is used by many people to justify the unjustifiable.

I believe that Islam hit me preatty hard when I saw a bunch of Islamic practicing people on CNN CHEERING when they found out about 9/11. If something like that had happened in the Middle East, would the Christian world stand in applause? NO! The first thing that would have been done would be to organize some kind of relief fund!

As far as their women go, it concerns me that they can be stoned to death on an accusation! Yes, women elsewhere are mistreated - but who do you think stands out as being BY FAR the most ill treated? I'll give you one guess.

Why can't people just realize that THE WAY ISLAM IS PRACTICED IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS BACKWARDS AND BARBARIC! PERIOD! It does not mean that Islam it's self is bad, but it's evolution in it's followers over there is!

Terrorism...a questionable term being used in these times...the early Americans committed terrorism against the Indians, then they committed terrorism against the British. Because they're methods are not same as the Americans with smart bombs and tanks doesn't make resistance, terrorism. Modern Era of other religions promoting killings and partaking in killings...how about the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland, England, that area....what about the radical jews in Israel that promote killing and terrorism? Governments had intervene in all those situations...but they did happen.

CNN may have shown arabs celebrating, and yes I too agree that was wrong, no deaths should be celebrated. Don't forget though that the majority of Muslim nations and their people condemned the 9/11 attacks. Once again you let a minority of extremists control your entire perception of a whole religion.
But what about the soldiers who go to a bar and celebrate after dropping 500lb bombs...Just because they don't show it on CNN or FOX, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Weren't you celebrating in your home when Baghdad fell and when the first bombs hit Iraq.. Don't lie, most Americans were happy at that time when we thought that there was a real imminent threat from Saddam. You may not see Christians applauding or Jews celebrating, but remember media is biased and if Arafat was to knocked off, I am sure they were will be celebration, maybe private, but never the less some will be celebrating.

Maybe the women issues in Islam stands out because that is what the media is showing. But what about the millions of Hindu women who were forced to commit suicide and lie on the funeral pyres of their husbands until it was banned. What about the millions of Hindu women who are beaten, burned, treated horribly because of their culture? These women are also forced to cover themselves, and walk behind their husbands and show humility and respect infront of men.. Again because you don't see it, doesn't mean it is not happening.

As per your last statement... if the Middle East is so backwards and barbaric, why are we so anxious to be involved in their affairs? Why isn't the natural evolution of a people, religion and culture allowed? Why do we need to enforce our idealogy on them? And what about the rest of Africa and all the other third world countries?

Worldwatcher, I tend to look at things not in terms of individuals. I look at trends and the things that affect large groups of people. As I said before, I don't believe Islam is doing anything that other religions are not also guilty of. However, most of those other religions are coming around. They are evolving and adapting to new conditions. However bad the status of women has been in the past in Christianity, for example, it is much better now. In my opinion, Islam is not adapting.

I am not religious at all and am not attacking Islam from the point of an opposing religion.

I stand corrected on my statement on Birth Rates. Let me be more specific with my statement. Yes, impoverished African Countries have higher birth rates, but these countires mostly do not have the exportable wealth of the Oil Rich Middle Eastern countries. This makes them ineffectual to cause harm on a global scale. They also have an extremely bad AIDS epedimic that will counter their high birth numbers. Check the birth rates again and you will see that except for the impoverished African nations, the Islamic countires have birth rates 2 to 3 times those found in the any of the Western Nations.

For many different reasons (population, fear of cultural change, fear of women's rights, fear of scientific refuting of dogma, etc....) Islamic populations have to expand, while keeping Western Culture out at the same time. They will expand into Europe because the appeasing Europeans will probably let them.

I'm not saying there are little old mullahs in Mecca that have all this planned out on a sandtablet, but given the nature of humans and given the rapidly changing geopolitical, economic, and cultural factors, I think Islam is a very dangerous, and destructive force to Western Civilization. They really don't have much choice unless they come to terms with secularism and give up some of their control mechanisms.

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by Ambient Sound]

In stead of making a brand new post on this subject, I decided to use the Spiffy New Boolean Search Engine. (Winks at Seekrof...)

If you belive that Islam is some tolerant religion, you have been lied to. The number of "evil" stuff in their religion is great. However, I have no points off the top of my head. But, I do have one website that can point you to some of it. The man who did this has been studying the religious text of Islam and shows a great number of examples of how "evil" this religion truly is.

www.prophetofdoom.net

I personally loved the terrorism and war sections...

As it sits in this modern day world, the way that Islam is practiced by the vast majority of it's followers it is the most intolerant of the major religions.
______________________________
Kinda like durring the crusades when the christians KILLED every muslim man woman and child? And when the muslims took the city back over, they spared the christians inside.

Or in WWII when the CHRISTIAN NAZI's killed 6 million Jews.

Yea, it is only Islam that is intollerent. Last I checked, the big three religions have been killing themselfs since the beginning.

You cannot quote one part of the Quran, without reading the whole thing

There is going to be a lecture on Islam on May 17 and 19, put on the Muslim Student Alliance at my school, and I'm planning on going to it to learn a little more about the softer side of Islam. I MIGHT take notes and report it back to this thread.

Originally posted by Wgatenson
Or in WWII when the CHRISTIAN NAZI's killed 6 million Jews.

In actuality the Nazis bordered on Atheist or more occult/Wagnerian friendly than die hard christian.

Salaam Aliekum all,
It seems today is Islam Bashing Day?
Please brother and sisters d not judge a religion by its people, Look:
Islam is the religion given to the whole of humanity so that they may be save, not just by praying, but by actions also!
Muslims CLAIM to follow Islam, so some of them do a good job but some of them dont.

Its like Christians, Some people CLAIM to follow Jesus(pbuh) and call themselves Christians, some of them do a good job and some of them dont!!

Its that simple, if you want to look at CNN Muslims, then that is fine, but then i could be an idiot also, and start to look at Aljazeera Americans and i to would have a bad impression of American's.
God Willing, one day these so called Muslims will be stoped and put down for there bad deeds and making Islam look like a bad religion.
You must also take in that the Media likes to point at minorities and make it seem like its the Majority of people!

It took 2 years of my life just for me to decide that Islam was the religion i should follow!
I know i made the right decision!

Salaam (peace)

Guerilla

The largest concentration of Muslims reside in Indonesia... not the Middle East. While we hear of violence in Jakarta every now and then, isn't it a coincidence that the place that doesn't even have the largest concentrations of Muslims gets them labeled as violent and 'born on the back of war'?

I do so hate when people assume religion as a reason for war... and I hate it even more when people believe it and use it as a reason to stereotype an entire culture.

I've never seen a better way of putting the perspectives we have on eachother - CNN Muslims, Aljazeera Americans ... very nice. Very nice indeed.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have right over you. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and comitted helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to commit adultery.

O People, listen to me in earnest, whorship Allah, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadhan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to. You know that every Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. You are all equal. Nobody has superiority over other except by piety and good action.

All I can say about the bible and the Koran is, both books are a little bit of fact surrounded by a large amount of fiction..
like mass spin

Guerilla all I have to do is look at your avatar and that tells me everything....
"Islam will "DOMINATE" the world".............

Read the information in the below thread/link to find out what Extremist Muslims do to non-Muslim blacks, and how France helped....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

About the deeds that Mohammed did while he was alive, other members, myself included, have posted information of the things he did. You can find links if you search for them. To give you an overview Mohammed did attack caravans, supposedly he just killed one man and took the rest as slaves, except that sometimes he would kill everyone in a caravan, guess he felt like it.

At one time he executed 700-1000 jews after they were captured and he took one girl from them of 9 years old as a wife. According to the Quran a man can only have up to 4 wives and if he can provide for them, but Mohammed had 12 wives and even he said that he had gone against many of the mandates in the book he wrote.

If you want to find out, do a search, it is in ATS and on the net.

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Solarix
This is not from a christian or jewish perspective; I thought I would get that out of the way to begin with.

Is Islam a religion where you have to check "free-thinking" at the door and embrace a tyranical, murderous, intolerant worldview?

IMO: YES!

1. How can the Koran be the infallable word of God when it contains nonsense like the earth is flat and the sun moves around the earth.

2. How can it be said that Mohammed was a loving and compassionate man yet he killed, robbed and sadisticly tortured people. ie: a man was murdered for making fun of Mohammed in poetry.
Also, Mohammed tortured and punished some by chopping of their arms and legs, burning out their eyeballs and killing them slowly in the harsh elements of the desert.

3. Why do Muslim claim that Mohammed was a liberator of women when it is taught that women are:
a) inferior to men
b) must obey their husbands - or be dealt with harshly
c) Mohammed said that hell was filled with women due to disobeying their husbands
d) Husbands can beat them because Allah promotes this in the koran.
e) Have no essential rights like child-custody and the right to divorce.
f) Court testomony is worth only half of the testomony of a man.
g) She has no autonomy, first her father controls her then her husband.
h) Allah wants them to stay at home and not to came out.
i) They are forbidden to join ceremonies such as funerals.
j) The Koran speaks only towards man as if woman arent full human beings.

4. How can Muslims say that Mohammed was a perfect human-being or even a good man and his example should be followed when it is known that he did a 9-year old girl when he was 53?
Don't many muslims follow this example because the best muslims should follow the Sunna?


5.How can it be said that Islam is a religion of peace and love when the koran teaches that non-believers are forbidden to be friends of muslims and in fact the koran promotes killing them and otherwise abusing them?

i do not know where did u get all these facts, did u personally read the Koran itself? or did u get them from someone or somewhere? as far as i know, most of it are not true. As a Muslim, for all my life i've never heard of prophet Muhammad chopping hands or burning eyes or whatsoever. He was never cruel to others, even when he was praying and sumbody threw some dog # to him, he did not do anything to the guy..even to his uncles..who were againts him for being a Muslim for all his life..they were always do something serrioulsy bad to him, but he did nothing to them..physically or mentally..

and Islam never forbid their believers to have friend from other religions..seriously..that is totally not true..i have a lot of nonmuslim frens..close frenss..and for the part that "Koran promotes killing and abusing them" is only for nonmuslims that are against the muslims- againts here means, ppl that are violence towards the muslims..physically..people do have the sense of wanting to protect their religion isn't it?..

well, i seriously think that if we want to know sumthing we should ask to those who are knowledgeable concerning to the particular subject or whatever..asking does not bring any harm does it?

As much as I dread stepping into this arena, I'm gonna just to say this.

To me, every religion has truth in it. And every person should have the ability to find these truths and know for themselves what is right and what is wrong. Those who cannot descern for themselves what is right or wrong are caught in a conspiracy, one that hides the creator in rules and regulation, in an attempt to control the masses, and who is in control of these masses? Extriemists who twist words for thier own agendas.
Christianity has them, Islam has them, almost every large religion has them.
To point the finger at an entire group of people and say because you believe something I do not, you are all murdering, womanizing, controling and manipulate is not only DUMB, but dangerous.
It feeds into the extriemists views and gives them more power.

Perhaps instead of finding differences, you should first find common ground with your fellow man, and focus on that.

If you cannot find any, then it is you that has the problem, and you need to take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror.

Originally posted by Agent47

Originally posted by Wgatenson
Or in WWII when the CHRISTIAN NAZI's killed 6 million Jews.

In actuality the Nazis bordered on Atheist or more occult/Wagnerian friendly than die hard christian.

how do you know that most of the people in control of the arab countries are not just like the leaders of the western countries...they only claim they are devoted to the socialy accepted religion in their country....

The leaders are the ones breeding hate in their countries forcing their people to fight wars they wish not....

From reading this thread the way nations breed hate through propaganda works quite well as you maybe able to tell by reading most of these intolerant media loving bush ass-suckers hilarious statements trying to justify their own hatred that they are not even sure where it came from other that the b.s. they see on t.v.

[Edited on 20-5-2004 by McGotti]

Originally posted by daYo

i do not know where did u get all these facts, did u personally read the Koran itself? or did u get them from someone or somewhere? as far as i know, most of it are not true. As a Muslim, for all my life i've never heard of prophet Muhammad chopping hands or burning eyes or whatsoever. He was never cruel to others, even when he was praying and sumbody threw some dog # to him, he did not do anything to the guy..even to his uncles..who were againts him for being a Muslim for all his life..they were always do something serrioulsy bad to him, but he did nothing to them..physically or mentally..

and Islam never forbid their believers to have friend from other religions..seriously..that is totally not true..i have a lot of nonmuslim frens..close frenss..and for the part that "Koran promotes killing and abusing them" is only for nonmuslims that are against the muslims- againts here means, ppl that are violence towards the muslims..physically..people do have the sense of wanting to protect their religion isn't it?..

well, i seriously think that if we want to know sumthing we should ask to those who are knowledgeable concerning to the particular subject or whatever..asking does not bring any harm does it?

I don't think you have read well the Quran ( Koran, Kuran) or you have been misguided. Even illmatic has said that its true that Muhammed did kill people, even after they were captured. Muhammed himself wrote that he was a sinner and had gone against many of the mandates of the Koran.


"[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. "

You can find the above in a copy of the Koran at.
www.kuran.gen.tr...

These links tell of the verses in the Koran that are hateful and violent against all non-Muslim people. One is a Christian link, the other is a Hindu link.

www.truthtree.com...

pages.prodigy.net...

Check the verses that are in those two links with the link that i gave above of the Koran.

It is true that there are moderate Muslims that will not think of this, but the truth is that Islam was founded as Islamic extremism, not just Islam.

Althou is true that some other religions see women as second to men, I am not aware these religions are so violent even against their faithful women. Cutting a girl's clitoris at 5 years old and such or stoning them to death or killing them in a public execution if they are thought to be unfaithful to their husbands. Any religion that condones and advocates killing of non believers is actually a religion of evil.

Islam is a sham and if any true Muslim wants to break from the brainwashing, prophetofdoom will help. He demonstrates how Muhammad twisted the Jewish scriptures and how he and his followers have road the religon train to stupidity.