Scientists Not So Sure 'Doomsday Machine' Won't Destroy World

Originally posted by Thinkmore
This is exactly why the uneducated common man should not attempt to divine the meanings of scientific papers and articles.
Most people lack critical thinking skills and common sense. They see a phrase or word they understand, and start jumping to conclusions based on their current base of knowledge. Which is usually nothing.

I am in full agreement. There are a lot of people here saying that "scientists lack common sense." This statement is absurd. Scientists, especially physicists, have to take rigorous logic courses since it accommodates both science and mathematics.

Originally posted by GeeGee

Originally posted by Thinkmore
This is exactly why the uneducated common man should not attempt to divine the meanings of scientific papers and articles.
Most people lack critical thinking skills and common sense. They see a phrase or word they understand, and start jumping to conclusions based on their current base of knowledge. Which is usually nothing.

I am in full agreement. There are a lot of people here saying that "scientists lack common sense." This statement is absurd. Scientists, especially physicists, have to take rigorous logic courses since it accommodates both science and mathematics.

And how many times do we hear scientists say we got it wrong and we had to rethink our theory’s. Scientists developed the LHC and it broke first time. They might be right about the black hole but the machine failed. What if it fails at the wrong time.
Wooops “I wish I could do that again”

Originally posted by majestictwo
And how many times do we hear scientists say we got it wrong and we had to rethink our theory’s. Scientists developed the LHC and it broke first time. They might be right about the black hole but the machine failed. What if it fails at the wrong time.
Wooops “I wish I could do that again”

Scientists are not some superhuman creatures, they're human just like the rest of us, and thus are prone to making errors. Creating a black hole that will swallow up the Earth is just not that simple. It requires tremendous amounts of energy that cannot be harnessed by anything we possess today. Accidents do happen, but people need to realize that scientists make mistakes just like anyone else does. If we were to halt all scientific study for the sake of paranoia, the world would remain a mystery forever and technological progress would come to an end.

Originally posted by GeeGee

Originally posted by majestictwo
And how many times do we hear scientists say we got it wrong and we had to rethink our theory’s. Scientists developed the LHC and it broke first time. They might be right about the black hole but the machine failed. What if it fails at the wrong time.
Wooops “I wish I could do that again”

Scientists are not some superhuman creatures, they're human just like the rest of us, and thus are prone to making errors. Creating a black hole that will swallow up the Earth is just not that simple. It requires tremendous amounts of energy that cannot be harnessed by anything we possess today. Accidents do happen, but people need to realize that scientists make mistakes just like anyone else does. If we were to halt all scientific study for the sake of paranoia, the world would remain a mystery forever and technological progress would come to an end.

But surely in this case you can't afford an accident

Black holes could last minutes

Perhaps longer who knows, all I'm saying is we don't know and its risky

Originally posted by majestictwo
But surely in this case you can't afford an accident

Black holes could last minutes

Perhaps longer who knows, all I'm saying is we don't know and its risky

You have to consider two things:

1) If these black holes do actually occur, they would be tiny (subatomic scale). Which means they will have no effect on matter because of a very, very weak gravitational influence. The most likely outcome is that they will either not occur or decay via Hawking radiation.

2) The universe pounds our atmosphere with cosmic rays constantly. These particle collisions are several times more powerful than the LHC. So, if particle collisions do indeed create micro black holes, they must be happening in our atmosphere. Since we have not been sucked into a black hole yet, we can either conclude that these black holes evaporate quickly or that they do not occur.

[edit on 4-2-2009 by GeeGee]

Originally posted by GeeGee
You have to consider two things:

1) If these black holes do actually occur, they would be tiny (subatomic scale). Which means they will have no effect on matter because of a very, very weak gravitational influence. The most likely outcome is that they will either not occur or decay via Hawking radiation.

2) The universe pounds our atmosphere with cosmic rays constantly. These particle collisions are several times more powerful than the LHC. So, if particle collisions do indeed create micro black holes, they must be happening in our atmosphere. Since we have not been sucked into a black hole yet, we can either conclude that these black holes evaporate quickly or that they do not occur.

[edit on 4-2-2009 by GeeGee]

Here we go again

Nobody can say for certain what gravity a micro black hole has and the very simple reason is they haven't seen one. Also the whole Hawking Radiation thing has more than a few peer reviewed papers disputing it and absolutely no evidence to back it up. In fact I'd say there are more scientists against it than for it.

As for the whole particles colliding in the atmosphere I don't know how many times it's been said it just isn't the same thing.

Lets just put it this way the particles do not lose speed in space (mostly due to the fact that they are all going in the same direction away from the sun) so if they do collide and possibly make a black hole it shoots away at close to the speed of light, at that speed it's quite safe for it to fly right through the earth because it will always have escape velocity.

Now in the LHC we are forcing the particles into head on collisions which isn't what is happening in the atmosphere and if they hit right they will lose that vital escape velocity. If it helps just remember its simply banging two things together imagine a bullet hitting a bullet.

In space the bullets just glance of each other but in the LHC they could hit straight on and then the earths gravity may be able to play a part.

So due to the head on collisions and the possible speed loss anything that comes into existence "micro black holes" or otherwise has a real chance of being caught in Earths gravity and being unable to escape.

Probably not explained as well as I'd like but I'm trying to keep it understandable.

The way I see it is it's either a tiny risk or it's inevitable to happen hopefully the first.



[edit on 4-2-2009 by Teknikal]

Originally posted by Teknikal
Lets just put it this way the particles do not lose speed in space (mostly due to the fact that they are all going in the same direction away from the sun) so if they do collide and possibly make a black hole it shoots away at close to the speed of light, at that speed it's quite safe for it to fly right through the earth because it will always have escape velocity.

Not really sure how you think this would be safe. If this is what is happening then many of those particles by now would have flown off as you say and would have collided with one of the other planets or moons in our system. Imagine the number of black holes being formed if what you say here is correct. They would have smacked into say, Jupiter, slowed down, sucked in mass and become bigger already. So I'm not really sure it's creating black holes. Or of course they are evaporating as predicted.

Ahh well i wish they'd fix the damn magnets in the LHC and get the baby fired back up! Can't wait to read some of the papers that are written on the results they find.

[edit on 5-2-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


"So I'm not really sure it's creating black holes. Or of course they are evaporating as predicted. "

I think it is creating "black holes" elsewhere...

Not in our dimension, but in another or perhaps somewhere in our local area that we are currently unaware of - this is where the extra energy is coming from.

Remember how the LHC could not be turned off, even with the power turned off? This is why.

*Tekinikal is right in his assessment. Like two bullets colliding, they neutralize (in theory) each others energy and would then both be equally affected by Earth's gravity. If the bullets were particles and the collision created a "black hole", it would have nowhere to go but down....

Remember the helium leak? That is where it came from.

Let’s suppose that a black hole is created that last only a moment for arguments sake a micro second. Then there is a chance that the next may last longer lets say two microseconds. That would indicate that they are not constrained but time, we may find that they could last for minutes which is what some are concerned with.

Okay if a black hole forms that lasts for minutes then that will be okay I presume if the LHC magnets keep it contained.

So here’s the thing what if it didn’t evaporate and remained we would have to rely on the LHC to keep it there – or am I missing something?

reply to post by majestictwo


Well, it is good to see you guys thinking for yourself instead of just quoting others and repeating the same old dribble about fear, what if it goes terribly wrong and science in general.

Here something for you to chew on;
What if a black hole is simply mass spinning faster than the speed of light?
What if dark matter is simply matter in motion faster than the speed of light?
What if the theory that nothing can exceed the speed of light is simply a misread of nothing can be seen exceeding the speed of light.

Just a thought, have fun!

black holes faster than the speed of light
archives.cnn.com...


[edit on 2/5/2009 by eaganthorn]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Not really sure how you think this would be safe. If this is what is happening then many of those particles by now would have flown off as you say and would have collided with one of the other planets or moons in our system. Imagine the number of black holes being formed if what you say here is correct. They would have smacked into say, Jupiter, slowed down, sucked in mass and become bigger already. So I'm not really sure it's creating black holes. Or of course they are evaporating as predicted.

Actually it's quite simple if by chance Black Holes were created in the atmosphere the sheer speed of them would mean they would pass straight out of the solar system and no planets/moons gravity would be able to compete. Who knows theoretically they could pass right through Jupiter and pick up a little mass but they wouldn't be there long enough to be any danger.

The danger really comes from the loss of speed and if Hawking Radiation exists or not. I think probably it doesn't but I'm still hopeful there will be no black holes as only some theory's predict them at the low energy's of the LHC.

That's ridiculous they spend there money on this but can't even cure cancer

You know, I have said all along that if they really knew the results of what they are trying to do, they would not need to do it. Our entire universe was supposedly started by the same pinhead tiny exlposion that they are trying to create, so what is there to stop it once it starts? And why, why in the universe, do we need to know anyway????????

Really think about the scale of this for a second.

Nothing humans build is foolproof. This thing is gigantic and has immense power. What if something does go wrong?

Even then, what if it goes right and kills us all anyway?

All along this project has sounded like a million shooter Russian Roulette on a global scale.

Sure, there is an overwhelming chance the chamber will be empty.

But there is that tiny chance that the shot will be fired.

Why even taken that chance to erase billions of people and billions of years of growth?

reply to post by fooffstarr


Hmmm, 144,000 scientists dedicated their entire lives to this project VS the fear from a handful of high school drop outs and GED studs.
Yes, lets think about the scope of this problem.
[sarcasm]You may have something there, lets close it down before its too late.[/sarcasm]

[edit on 2/7/2009 by eaganthorn]

[edit on 2/7/2009 by eaganthorn]

reply to post by eaganthorn


I like your sig by the way good info, just thinking what if Pi is not 3.14 in another dimension?

Now lets suppose all the scientists you give credit to all have their math correct. Cross checked calculated recalculated. How do they know that their math is correct at this quantum level.

You cannot be sure

Originally posted by Exuberant1
Remember how the LHC could not be turned off, even with the power turned off? This is why.

I'm sorry, when did this happen?

Originally posted by Exuberant1
*Tekinikal is right in his assessment. Like two bullets colliding, they neutralize (in theory) each others energy and would then both be equally affected by Earth's gravity. If the bullets were particles and the collision created a "black hole", it would have nowhere to go but down....

Remember the helium leak? That is where it came from.

No, it isn't. A faulty electrical connection caused a power surge in one of the incredibly large electro-magnets, leading to the fault.

Why regurgitate what other people say as fact? Are people that gullible these days that they will believe anything they read without any critical thinking?

Originally posted by googolplex

Originally posted by QueenofWeird
How much mass is needed to create a singularity with a very small surface? When two particles hit eachother in the collider I assume they will just break up to show their secret ingredients. So how could a tiny object with a monster mass arise?

They won't create singularity, they won't create Black Hole.

When they smash these together all will happen is the disruption of a natural order, all of the chaos will be it trying to restore natural order.

That sound almost ahum spiritual Anyways there will be not enough mass concentrated in one spot to stretch space-time to infinity. That is a good thing, because I don't like black holes whatever mass they may have.

Looks like they goofed again another delay I think that is now the third time they have changed it by a matter of months.

To be honest I wouldn't be at all surprised if they have a similar accident before they try it again instead of making black holes it may be making money holes.

news.bbc.co.uk...

I'm sure we will get the usual replys of how complex it is and there was bound to be issues but seriously in the current financial climate how can anyone justify pouring millions into this thing.