home invasion thwarted by armed citizen.

Originally posted by TheAvenger
It's better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it. .

EXACTLY!
A gun is like a car seatbelt. You may never ever need it, but if the time comes when you do need it, you will be very thankfull that you had it.

Would banning firearms reduce murder rates? A review of international evidence

Our conclusion from the available data is that suicide, murder and violent crime rates are determined by basic social, economic and/or cultural factors with the availability of any particular one of the world’s myriad deadly instrument being irrelevant.

If it were a perfect world, there would be no guns at all, and we wouldn't have so many problems.

But, it's a highly imperfect world, where criminals can get a gun no matter the laws in place.

When someone breaks into your house, you have no idea what their plan is, but you should assume the worst, after all, that person has just committed one crime by breaking in. Who knows what other crimes they are willing to commit? They are quite likely armed too, it would be a stupid criminal who breaks in a home without a weapon, knowing that many people have guns.

Shoot first, ask questions later.

If you don't want to be shot, don't break into peoples houses.

Who cares about the criminals life. Violent acts deserve violent repercussions. Someone once told me that in the middle east if you are caught stealing, they cut off the hand you stole with. I bet they don't have many thieves around over there compared to here. Its people like this who keep you up at night scared for your life. Yes, my playstatation is more important than that criminals life im sorry to say. Yes I do value life. But rapists, thieves, Child molesters, murderers all need to be dealt with. What right do you have to break in my home and try and steal something I worked hard for? You gave up all your rights when you trespassed on my property! To some I may sound cold but where do you draw the line? Is that criminal going to go home and feel sorry for what he did and learn a valuable lesson? Its common sense. If you dont wanna get your head blown off dont go taking what is not yours. get a job a work like the rest of us.

Man i love this kind of stuff and i hope this law is passed and i hope they taske our rights away i hope that my goverment will come knock on my door and take my gun. the corruption will never end we are only human there is no stop to electing a shadow. they are hard to see in the light but they come out in the dark. someday the pot will boil over. no if we have no firearms we will have far better technology when the time comes, for ourselves rather then what the goverment allows us to have because it will be illegal to retain one from the goverment, in wich there will be no limit to what we will make and give to our neighbor. for every action there is a reaction. the more our goverment restricts us to doing the closer we get to being the same level as the middle east pretty soon we will all rely on what things the black market has to offer if it keeps going the way it is. what doesnt destroy us will only make us stronger gentlmen, and ladies


On the other hand colombine for instance or even virginia tech, if guns were aloud in s chools there would have been less people dead because the shooting for one might not have happened due to knowledge that every one in there was armed. 2 if they did shoot someone, then someone would eventualy stop them before taking a mass amount of lives.

I dont want this to come across in the wrong way but I think this is something you Americans have nailed down - the right to defend yourself - and its something you should strive to keep hold of I dont know if this has been covered (I really should read the whole thread 1st but I wanted to throw my 2p in as soon as I saw the 1st few posts) Here in the UK it is possible for someone to break into your house and if you injure them (or worse) or even if they trip up and injure themselves it is possible for them to sue you!! How ridiculous is that?!?! (Just google 'burgular sues victim' and you'll see what I mean)
I had my home broken into a few years back whilst my girlfriend was visiting and a few things stopped me confronting him (call me a coward if you want but I locked us both in my bedroom) 1: I didnt know if this person was armed (I wasnt) 2: I was concerned that if I got hurt or worse my girlfriend would be left on her own and pretty defenseless and 3: It actually occurred to me that if I did confront and harm this burgular I could get into trouble. I sent a text to some friends who came over and we chased the guy out of the house. Soon after the police arrived and we asked them what we could have done to defend ourselves within the law. I can disclose what he said if anyone is interested as its quite useful info and I will use it if the need arises.
We should be allowed to defend ourselves in our own homes with force if we deem it necessary and you guys in the States need to hang onto that right and never let it be taken from you and your constitution!!

Thanks

[edit on 27/1/09 by mrvalleyboy]

While I live in the UK (which makes owning a firearm for protection impossible) I fully, 110% support those in the US who own guns for self defence and the protection of their families.

At the end of the day its quite simple as many people have already pointed out, if you don't want to get hurt then you don't attempt to break into my house. Simple.

I really do not see why some people (do-gooders) struggle to understand this concept and I'm of the oppinion that if they was the victim in said scenario they would change their minds pretty fast.

It is impossible to ascertain the intentions of someone who is attempting to break into your house in the middle of the night, but by the very nature of his actions you can be sure that his intentions aren't good. Again, this is simple, I fail to see why some people don't understand this.

Did you know that in the UK if someone attempts to break into your home and you injured them YOU could be the one sent to jail not THEM?

What?!?!?!?

So a 23 year old man breaks into my house at 2:00AM in the morning with the intention of raping, torturing my wife & kids yet I injure him and I'm the one getting charged?

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD!

The more people stick up for themselves the better, again I keep using the word it's quite simple. If you don't want to get burned then don't touch the fire, if you don't want to get shot/injured/fought against/repelled then don't break into peoples homes!

[edit on 27/1/09 by Death_Kron]

[edit on 27/1/09 by Death_Kron]

[edit on 27/1/09 by Death_Kron]

Yup thats spot on Its one of the most ridiculous interprtations of the law Ive ever come across. IMO it just gives criminals more of an incentive to break into your house Its a win-win situation for them If they dont get caught/injured and they make off with your property they win If they get caught/injured they get to sue you and thus make off with your property (your hard earned cash) and again they win!

Yes Political Correctness gone stark raving bonkers. Next the criminals will be able to sue if theres nothing in our house worth stealing or if we refuse to show them where the safe is for example

And yet gun crime in the UK is at its highest level for a long time maybe highest ever! Go figure huh?! Anyone spot the problem here?

We're all being screwed - the decent people in society anyway!!!




[edit on 27/1/09 by mrvalleyboy]

I am from the UK so cannot really comment on this type of law as it is not something that we have (the pleasure of).
I would be intrigued, however, to get your thoughts on something.

Originally posted by Blueracer
Richard Lopez is lucky he escaped with his life. Maybe that will be enough to make him change his ways for the better.

I understand that it may make him change his ways, being faced (no pun intended) with such a situation as he was but would it also not make these criminals in future turn up at a house armed prior to robbing it?

Originally posted by mrvalleyboy

Yes Political Correctness gone stark raving bonkers. Next the criminals will be able to sue if theres nothing in our house worth stealing or if we refuse to show them where the safe is for example

Haha!

The worrying thing is though that I wouldn't actually be that shocked if this came into fruition.

My mother was telling me the other day, remember when you used to have pieces of glass in cement on top of large walls protecting a premises?

Well apparently theyre illegal now and the burgulars might injure themselves! Barbed wire is also illegal now for the same reason I've been led to believe.

Originally posted by turbokid

Originally posted by Ismail
Well I do find it kind of weird how some americans think it's ok to kill a guy for trying to steal their TV... It's kind of frightening because it shows how much some of you value life. (I.E. less that a TV, whats that, 100 $ for a good one ? )

oh boy, the classic, "let them steal your things" nonsense.

www.cbsnews.com...

dont give me that all they want is a TV crap, you have no idea what people have in mind once they enter your home. What if this happend to YOUR wife or mom, daughters?

I have to agree with turbo on this one.
I will not even let someone steal my chewing gum, it is not theirs, they have no right to take it from me.
If somebody puts my friends or loved ones in imminent danger and I have a window of opportunity to act then I will do so and I care not for the life of the person who is causing the threat.

However, it is NEVER as simple as a lot of people are making it sound in this thread. Anything can happen and the criminals are often extremely unpredictable.

In the UK we have a "reasonable force" law that basically means that we can tackle an intruder but only by using "reasonable force".
Say for example that a twelve year old breaks into my house with a NERF gun. I have a real gun. I use the real gun (or knife, or bat) on the boy. That is NOT "reasonable force".
But what is "reasonable force" ?

Originally posted by george_gaz

I understand that it may make him change his ways, being faced (no pun intended) with such a situation as he was but would it also not make these criminals in future turn up at a house armed prior to robbing it?

Sadly your probably right. The use of firearms to defend peoples properties will almost certainly encourage the robbers to use weapons themselves.

The law needs to be tougher and in my oppinion needs to be changed. Think about this; if someone is caught by a homeowner attempting to break into their property and they physically restrain them until the police arrive.

At worst the offender will probably get a caught for attempted breaking & entering and maybe pay a small fine.

Well what if the offender wasn't attempting to enter your property to steal but rather to kill, rape, torture, maim?

All the guy needs to say is, "Yeah officers, I'll admit I was trying to rob the house" but what if he wasn't?

I know that it also depends on whats found on his person, i.e. if he had porn mags and lubricant in his back pocket it would be look at differently (hopefully)

I actually remember reading a story quite recently about a family who had caught a man in their home, he was walking towards their 13 year old daughters bedroom with a knife, condoms, lubricant and rope.

Think the homeowner got in trouble to attacking the man. I'll try and find a link now.

Okay heres the link people:

www.theindychannel.com...

Forgive me for getting some of the details wrong but it was a while ago since I saw it.

Believe me, if that case had happened in this country, Robert McNally would be serving a prison sentence for murder! Outrageous!!!

[edit on 27/1/09 by Death_Kron]

Yes that totally correct In fact that has reminded me - a guy who lives a few streets away used to have broken glass embedded in cement when I was younger and I remember it looking a very good deterrent and I certainly wasnt gonna attempt getting over the wall (I wasnt gonna climb the wall to get into his property but you know what kids are like)

Eventually someone did try and they cut themself quite badly - 3 guesses as to who was prosecuted, fined and sentenced to community service (dunno what you guys in the states call it sorry - its basically community based work as a punishment) Yup you guessed it - the houseowner He was also ordered to remove the glass from the wall which he did.....although he did buy 3 Dobermen soon after and I dont think he's had any probs since. I wonder then how long it will take for guard dogs to be banned or even put down if they do their job and guard!?

George_Gaz I can tell you what reasonable force is (have a quick read of my 1st post first though)
When the officer who responded to our call arrived we asked him what we can do within the law to defend ourselves. His words were:

"You need to be able to prove that you are protecting your life, the life of anyone with you and your property"

What he then suggested was:

"Give the burgular a good hammering and knock him out cold then get the biggest effing knife from your kitchen, put it in his hand then kick it from him and the guy wont have a leg to stand on in court"

It maybe dishonest (and not entirely straightforward) but if this person is trying to rob you or worse then tough luck I say

Being heavily interested in Martial Arts & Self Defence I have alot of different books covering the subjects and I seem to remember in one of them it does actually say that its legal in the UK to launch a pre-emptive strike

i.e.

It's legal to strike/hit someone first, if your convinced theyre about to hit you.

Obviously its almost impossible to prove unless there are witnesses and its still going to be one persons word vs another.

Originally posted by Thistled

The stats in the UK for death by gun crime is a microcosm in comparison to the US.

We don't have the PROBLEM.

To be honest, I would have to disagree.
The UK's gun crime may be a microcosm compared to the US but in comparison to our island, it is quite drastic.

28 gun crimes committed in UK every day

The spiralling problem with gun culture was highlighted by figures that show 28 firearms crimes are committed in England and Wales every day.
Home Office figures showed gun crimes rose by four per cent last year, the largest increase for three years.

Source - Telegraph

Now the articles highlight England and Wales and you are from Scotland but that is still a part of the UK and so I am pulling us all under the banner.

The UK does have a gun problem because we have no legal way of owning a gun therefore all guns being used are owned illegally.

Next, I know it is not the same, but the UK certainly has a problem with knives. I live in London so can attest to that. All the time on the news another teenager has been stabbed to death. The most recent came a couple of days ago when a teenager was stabbed to death multiple times in the face and chest, 15 years old.

The new figures indicate that in the year 2007-8 there were some 277 deaths from stabbings in England & Wales alone (the highest recorded figure for 30 years). This represents an average death toll as a direct result of stabbings of over 5 for every week of the year!

Source

Originally posted by Reaper106
Respectfully, how do you know what the intent of the intruders was?

I think the problem is that by the time you know, it's too late.

For safety reasons, if someone enters your home by force, you must immediately assume the worst.

reply to post by mrvalleyboy


Man I hate to hear a story like that...I do not call you a coward, quite contrary actually. I am a redneck! I want nothing more than to hunt, kill, shoot, drink(whilst shooting), etc...but you handled the situation correctly, given your position. You had 2 people to concern for their safety, and you managed to do so...Now here is how the story should have ended.

I locked my girlfriend and I in the bedroom. I had her get low in the closet. I grabbed, and loaded my .45 and stood guard..., and either the bad guy comes in or not, doesn't matter. The ability to directly protect yourself will most generally procure a positive outcome...in this scenario he comes in the room-you're safe...or he leaves/scared away-you're safe.

My version would of course be a little different, maybe something like this...

It was a hot, sultry July evening. The lightning bugs were dancing. My girlfriend and I had spent the evening watching Bond movies, and making homemade nacho's, naked... All of a sudden, as if a clock ticked the silent tock, the door burst open. It was Evil Master President Bandit Yomokiuna...I tore off my silken kimono, down to my loincloth, showing off my rock hard legs, and glistening, strong back!I looked him in the eyes...

Well it would be written something like that! It would be cool...basically I would hunt down anyone in my house and fire upon them...! I am all for homeowners, family men, and average citizens having the right to have guns...with some control. I do NOT believe every homeowner, family man, and average citizen should have a gun...

reply to post by daddymax


Thank you Daddy Max - its refreshing to hear that from someone who owns a gun and has your particular opinion on this matter. To be fair everyone who has heard my story has not labelled me a coward. My story did go a little bit along your line - in that I made her hide in the closet and I stood on the other side of the door with nothing but my boxer shorts (that sight alone wouldve put him off for that precious moment hehe) and my girlfriends hockey stick. I would happily have wrapped it around his head had he entered. Although I still think of it from time to time (the hairs on my arm and neck are rising as I write this) and wonder what would have happened had he come in or Id gone out but I try to maintain I did the right thing

Just as a sidenote this person was caught that night and was found to have a great big knife with him - so yes Im glad I stayed where I was




[edit on 27/1/09 by mrvalleyboy]

I fully support this guy, and Tony Martin, the Norfolk farmer jailed for shooting and killing a convicted criminal who broke into his home.

A great middle ground would be genuinely non-lethal stun weapons, which would lay a criminal out for an hour or so, enough to cuff them and wait for the police to arrive. Tasers are, unfortunately, occasionally deadly.

If you break into someone's house you should take the consequences, up to and including death.




[edit on 27-1-2009 by HiAliens]

Originally posted by Ismail
Well I do find it kind of weird how some americans think it's ok to kill a guy for trying to steal their TV... It's kind of frightening because it shows how much some of you value life. (I.E. less that a TV, whats that, 100 $ for a good one ? )

weird? value of life?

i find it weird that someone would prostrate themselves to the point of becoming a victim. it shows that they place no value on their own little world. if you can't fight back, then don't. it will get you killed. but not everyone is a pushover. some of us just cannot sit back and be ok with it.

ok. check this. if someone is coming through your door or window uninvited then they have placed a VERY low value on their own life. maybe i'm a d!ck but i value my life... to include the safety of my family and all that which promotes its harmony... that includes the TV and anyone that watches it. far more so than a fool that thinks he can take it away. anyone that violates the sanctity of a home has offered a declaration of war.

here we have the right to defend our property and person. its not ok to kill a guy over your TV. it is ok to kill him for placing you or your family in danger. burglars are dangerous. the moment a human being decides to become a scumbag and do the dirty, they have placed the value of their life in someone else's hands. that someone being their potential victim or the cops. well... there are only so many cops, and many burglary laws are way outdated so the crooks wind up back out on the street. private citizens are left with little recourse.

i have never had anything handed to me. i have earned everything i have and i'll be damned if i'm going to let some bully or sorry excuse for a human being just walk up and take any of it away. its not materialism, its equality. i wouldn't do it to someone else, and if i did i would expect them to put me out of my misery if i were to get caught.

these cases of citizens fighting back are the exception to the rule. usually the victim never sees justice. many more go unanswered.

i know a guy... his vehicle was burglarized and vandalized several times. the cops don't care unless they catch the creep red-handed and with a ton of loot. time & time again this poor guy went out to his vehicle to find that it had been ransacked. well i had the fortune to be around when he caught one. it was freakin' hilarious. this guy happens to be a martial arts expert. oh man the ass whoopin' he put on that dude was epic. he hit him so hard that stolen goods came flying out the thief's pockets. the moron still tried to pick up the swag while running away. we were going to let it go.... but nooooooo.... a$$hole wants to threaten us with a pistol. so we called the police.

when the cops arrived the thief tried to press charges for assault, but the cops refused to press charges. they told him "what did you expect?" here the vehicle is an extension of the home... this particular guy was so well known to one of the detectives he said his name three times like "billy, billy, billy... what have you done now." that same thief assaulted a sheriff's deputy while in custody and received a broken jaw for his trouble.

im not completely dispassionate toward the blight of urban life. i live in close proximity to it. i understand there are very valid reasons why people become so desperate. grinding poverty is a good start, but its not an excuse. i've been there.

turn the other cheek? well i have exactly two and they were both turned long ago. i've been robbed at gunpoint, shot at, had knives pulled on me, been burglarized... and i'm supposed to pity some thug-life wannabe? for me, that kind of mercy arrives in the form of a .357 magnum.

btw... a tv these days costs upwards of $1000. thats about a month's pay for minimum wage earning americans. in a couple of weeks, cheap television will be a thing of the past with the demise of analog signals.