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The U.S. and UK Are on the Brink of Debt Disaster

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posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by Leo Strauss


It appears to be something that started with Reagan and kept at a constant rate until Bush Jr got into power then became exponential.




posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 09:02 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 

Read the fine print Jerico...



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 09:03 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 


What evidence??? The bottom had already happened before FDR took over. He put people to work that would otherwise not have had any work until WWII came along. I hear this a lot, "evidence shows that FDR made it worse", WHAT evidence??? Show me???


By middle class I assume you mean working class? Reference Marx for more on that.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 09:07 PM
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reply to post by YourForever
 


Acedotal evidence that doesn't explain why you saw the exact same thing happened in many other countries at around about the same time. Hey I was born in 1980 so maybe I caused it.

[edit on 25-1-2009 by Jacob08]



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 09:11 PM
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my favorite thing about the credit crunch is all these economic masterminds saying -gosh we never thought this was possible, no one could have known! HA well i knew, most the people i know how have half a brain knew and the good people of ATS certainly knew.

The west has been inventing money to buy imports and services from desperate poor nations (desperate and poor because of us) for at least a hundred years now, know what happens to most the food grown in africa? europeans and americans eat some of it and waste the rest! We play silly little numbers games that makes it looks cheeper to do things the complex way, more cost effective to make something like a washing machine which will only last for 2years, etc, etc, etc.


We have laws to make sure everything is done in a way that makes a small group of people really rich, technology made with useful features disabled to protect patents and to prepare the market for the next model -then they even put DRM on it any make you download everything from itunes! (sory side tracked) and EVERYTHING that is produced has to have a clever [retarded]way of locking you into it's brand -i own over a dozern phone chargers none of which plug into anything else i own!

England is a small island which had used up the majority of its resources by the start of the industrial revolution! We have some coal and some oil, a few scraps of cheep metals in hard to reach places and not much else - what ever made us think we could all bury a few tons of waste every year?!? What made us think we could all drive 60miles to work every morning? what made us think we could wrap every single thing we buy in a thick plastic blister pack?!?

For me thats the worst of it, we make things which a designed to be thrown away INSTANTLY - what would be the problem with just packing them all in a box and letting me buy one?

For the love of sense people! People get paid to spend their day watching CCTV of other people working, walking down te street or catching a train - that's insane! The majority of people are milling around doing busy work, adding nothing to the actual production of the things we need - AGGGHHHH These people that do the least get loads of money and waste all of it on stupid, stupid things -a new outfit everyday, a new fitted kitchen although you haven't used the old one since it was fitted a year ago, a new car because the old number plate now says the wrong letter.

This is why we're going down the tubes, we have been opulent and lazy.

i would say its a good thing that its happened but the crazy people who run the world are mental and would rather plunge the whole world into war than give up their rolex.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 09:16 PM
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Originally posted by NatureBoy
my favorite thing about the credit crunch is all these economic masterminds saying -gosh we never thought this was possible, no one could have known!


Like 'no one expected the levies to break'. So is it deliberate? I think so.

And yeah, Reagan the fiscal conservative started the big govt. spending binge. Now he's dead he's recast as St.Gipper lmao.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by WSPfan
What evidence??? The bottom had already happened before FDR took over. He put people to work that would otherwise not have had any work until WWII came along. I hear this a lot, "evidence shows that FDR made it worse", WHAT evidence??? Show me???


Google search, .37 seconds.

newsroom.ucla.edu...

And that was just the first one I grabbed. You ought to give it a try sometime, the search function is our friend.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 09:24 PM
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Hello Hyperinflation. We are in for a interesting times.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 10:02 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by WSPfan
What evidence??? The bottom had already happened before FDR took over. He put people to work that would otherwise not have had any work until WWII came along. I hear this a lot, "evidence shows that FDR made it worse", WHAT evidence??? Show me???


Google search, .37 seconds.

newsroom.ucla.edu...

And that was just the first one I grabbed. You ought to give it a try sometime, the search function is our friend.


Thanks! I never would have thought to look on the Internet for information. Great idea. And tell me more about this Google invention?

Smartassedness aside. These two guys are economists with their own thoughts and philosophies. Depending on their economic school of thought they see things in a different light. These are economic theories being bandied around as evidence. For each "expert" that says FDR made it worse, you can find one that says he fixed it. I don't want to be drawn into the devisiveness if the politics of those times or these. It doesn't matter to me if Hoover or FD caused the Great Depression. It doesn't matter to me if Clinton or Bush caused the Greater Depression. What matters to me is that We The People allowed it to happen. The banks caused it, the elite caused it, the internal American war of Dem versus Republican had very little to do with the root causes of the problem. Most Americans put more true thought and feeling into who they will vote in as our next American Idol than they ever would for who will lead our country. In politics, teams are already picked and sides taken, the only real question is if you will fill the bleachers. That is the problem. Once that dynamic is in place then the powers that be just need to grease the wheels of both sides and there are gauranteed to cover their spread. Sure, I do blame Bush for a lot of this crisis, but he didn't cause it, he just did very little to prevent it. We are all to blame for allow this to happen. We were all to distracted by trying to make our own little lives work to realize the price it would really cost us. This is a class struggle disguised as a petty political struggle. Our economy has been raped. The rapist now acts as our defender, sells us a rape kit, and vows to make sure it never happens again.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 10:09 PM
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Sorry for the above sarcasm and the typos. My phone autospell has vowed to kill a well worded response

My point is I am disgusted and tired of fighting the small political fights when such a big one stands in our way.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 10:19 PM
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How come none of you have commented on the proposed solution...

Inflation.


I find it interesting that Inflation would actually relieve us of the burden of our debt.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 10:19 PM
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Did you know that Social Security at one time supported the average American through old age? Social Security wouldn't even begin to provide the necessary requirements for the average worker these days. So if SS is what you have to provide for your retirement you are in serious trouble. Thanks again to our conservative friends! Not to mention since the Reagan days the conservatives have been borrowing against SS in order to meet their budgets.
Borrow and spend. Borrow from our children and elderly and leave them out in the cold!

Support unions, restore tariffs, repeal unfair trade agreements. These measures will bring the manufacturing base back to the US. It is that simple. Do you want high paying jobs in the US with the profits being reinvested in the US? Then support these measures in fact demand these measures from your representatives!



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by WSPfan

Thanks! I never would have thought to look on the Internet for information. Great idea. And tell me more about this Google invention?


Well, it takes a lot of book-learning to use the Google on the internets machine.


Originally posted by WSPfan
Smartassedness aside. These two guys are economists with their own thoughts and philosophies. Depending on their economic school of thought they see things in a different light. These are economic theories being bandied around as evidence. For each "expert" that says FDR made it worse, you can find one that says he fixed it. I don't want to be drawn into the devisiveness if the politics of those times or these. It doesn't matter to me if Hoover or FD caused the Great Depression. It doesn't matter to me if Clinton or Bush caused the Greater Depression. What matters to me is that We The People allowed it to happen. The banks caused it, the elite caused it, the internal American war of Dem versus Republican had very little to do with the root causes of the problem. Most Americans put more true thought and feeling into who they will vote in as our next American Idol than they ever would for who will lead our country. In politics, teams are already picked and sides taken, the only real question is if you will fill the bleachers. That is the problem. Once that dynamic is in place then the powers that be just need to grease the wheels of both sides and there are gauranteed to cover their spread. Sure, I do blame Bush for a lot of this crisis, but he didn't cause it, he just did very little to prevent it. We are all to blame for allow this to happen. We were all to distracted by trying to make our own little lives work to realize the price it would really cost us. This is a class struggle disguised as a petty political struggle. Our economy has been raped. The rapist now acts as our defender, sells us a rape kit, and vows to make sure it never happens again.


I found a lot of stuff saying it prolonged the Depression, some that say it helped pull the US out of the Depression. Guess it just depends on the point of view. I don't see how big government, massive spending and labelling everyone a victim is going to help.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 10:57 PM
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Originally posted by Leo Strauss
Did you know that Social Security at one time supported the average American through old age? Social Security wouldn't even begin to provide the necessary requirements for the average worker these days. So if SS is what you have to provide for your retirement you are in serious trouble. Thanks again to our conservative friends! Not to mention since the Reagan days the conservatives have been borrowing against SS in order to meet their budgets.
Borrow and spend. Borrow from our children and elderly and leave them out in the cold!



Yep with ya thus far...




Support unions, restore tariffs, repeal unfair trade agreements. These measures will bring the manufacturing base back to the US. It is that simple. Do you want high paying jobs in the US with the profits being reinvested in the US? Then support these measures in fact demand these measures from your representatives!


Really? How did you get to this.

Seriously... how do Unions which encumber business bring mfg jobs back to the states? I was under the impression that was why they went overseas in the first place.

I know that liberals are supposed to support labor unions as far as quality of life goes, but this is the first I have heard it used as something which could bring jobs back to our shores.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 11:10 PM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
Did you know that Social Security at one time supported the average American through old age? Social Security wouldn't even begin to provide the necessary requirements for the average worker these days. So if SS is what you have to provide for your retirement you are in serious trouble. Thanks again to our conservative friends! Not to mention since the Reagan days the conservatives have been borrowing against SS in order to meet their budgets.
Borrow and spend. Borrow from our children and elderly and leave them out in the cold!



Yep with ya thus far...




Support unions, restore tariffs, repeal unfair trade agreements. These measures will bring the manufacturing base back to the US. It is that simple. Do you want high paying jobs in the US with the profits being reinvested in the US? Then support these measures in fact demand these measures from your representatives!


Really? How did you get to this.

Seriously... how do Unions which encumber business bring mfg jobs back to the states? I was under the impression that was why they went overseas in the first place.

I know that liberals are supposed to support labor unions as far as quality of life goes, but this is the first I have heard it used as something which could bring jobs back to our shores.



Tariffs are the key. Tariffs mean that if a Chinese laborer who constructs a toy in China for 5 cents will be charged a tariff for the price difference for the American worker who constructs the toy for $5.00 dollars. These are the unfair trade agreements the Republicans signed to ship our manufacturing base overseas.

Did you know China has tariffs? Japan has tariffs? Korea has tariffs? India has tariffs? In fact most industrial nations with the exception of the US have tariffs which protect their manufacturing jobs. Labor unions support workers rights, environmental rights, worker safety and A STRONG MIDDLE CLASS which forces the upper class to share in the benefits of our production. It is really about sharing in the abundance of our planet. That simple.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 11:21 PM
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reply to post by Leo Strauss
 


Well alright then.. Bring on the Tariffs!

I feel like Lou Dobbs...

I'm guessing that Conservatives don't like the Tariffs because we get into a Tariff war? Where we jack ours up.. they jack up theirs, and then Big Business doesn't grow, but Gov does?

Man... these competing partisan interests really muck things up.

Well, I hope the President I voted for comes through with some bipartisan politics which can effect this.


Thanks for the explanation.


[edit on 25-1-2009 by HunkaHunka]



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 11:32 PM
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reply to post by HunkaHunka
 


You don't create value by borrowing money to buy products from other countries. You create value by gathering raw materials and constructing something of value! A strong manufacturing base creates a strong middle class! China buys our bonds to prop up our currency so that we continue to buy their cheap goods! Funny huh?



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 12:26 AM
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Originally posted by Leo Strauss


The article paints a grim picture of debt to GDP for both the UK and the USA.
www.alternet.org
(visit the link for the full news article)


Debt to GDP during WW2 was 100%+ the US is no where near that level; I agree the U.S. is going to have a debt problem within the next 10 years, but for now people love U.S. Treasuries. Luckily the market can fix this with higher interest rates forcing the government to cut spending and for people to live within their means. The Federal Reserve can only control the short end of the Treasury curve, when people lose the appetite for the U.S. debts they will be selling/not buying the 20+ Year bonds. The Fed can't literally control interest rates, they can only use open market operations to set a target rate. The only facility the Fed actually controls is the discount window.


Originally posted by Leo Strauss
reply to post by HunkaHunka
 


You don't create value by borrowing money to buy products from other countries. You create value by gathering raw materials and constructing something of value! A strong manufacturing base creates a strong middle class! China buys our bonds to prop up our currency so that we continue to buy their cheap goods! Funny huh?


That is not exactly true, the Chinese don't float their currency (fully) while the U.S. does. Low or high rates don't necessarily determine the currencies strength, there is a lot more to it than that. The dollar actually continued to fall as the Fed rose rates to it's peak in 2006. The dollar rose when the Fed has rates at near 0 right now...you can't really simplify the forex market...there is a lot going on, including various carry trades.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by yellowcard]



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka
I'm guessing that Conservatives don't like the Tariffs because we get into a Tariff war? Where we jack ours up.. they jack up theirs, and then Big Business doesn't grow, but Gov does?


Exactly! But it's not just conservatives that have issues with tariffs...

When Tariffs are implemented, almost always, the country you created the tariff for will tariff you equally in return.

It becomes a back and forth game of attempting to stunt each others economy in revenge for being stunted.

What happens in the end is that both countries economies get damaged, and find it difficult to trade with the rest of the world.

This is the whole point behind free trade between nations. Unfortunately, governments keep tossing free trade out the window.

The people who benefit from tariffs? Your government, who receives the revenue from the Tariffs. Who has to pay the tariffs? Your companies.

Tariffs are clearly not the answer here.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by johnsky]



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 01:28 AM
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reply to post by johnsky
 


Ok, but who enforces our rights?

I'd have to say "we the people" Not "we the share holders"


What you say makes sense up until the point where it's based on Government being wiped out for the sake of free trade.

I believe in things like strict regulations from the FDA on anything which comes into our country. I need a strong government to provide that protection because there is no market incentive for businesses to perform that due diligence.

I just don't believe we can rely on business to act responsible with our rights any more than we can rely on Government to be responsible with our money. However, we as a people have a say in how government works, but we don't have that same luxury in the Business world unless we are shareholders.

So now, I have to use Gov as a check against Feudal System of Big Business.

Don't get me wrong, I can definitely see where the tariffs thing is ultimately not a good thing for business and for the economy. And I'm sure it would work one heckuva lot better if the other nations we traded with didn't have tariffs. Maybe that should be the compromise. We will drop all tariffs with any country who will also drop all tariffs, so that we could actually promote free trade instead of acting like it's occurring in a vacuum.

It would be like me being faithful to a spouse who wasn't returning the favor. In the end, I'd just be a schmuck.

I'm all for the removal of Tariffs, but Business has to compromise with us, they can't benefit from an artificial disparity of cost on one side, and then lobby the US gov to remove them on this side, and expect it to be kosher.

What's yer thoughts on that?



[edit on 26-1-2009 by HunkaHunka]



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