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What Crashed in Roswell- July 7, 1947

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posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by mmiichael
Klass was a class act, but far from the only person to seriously question a this and many other UFO claims. Check the later books of leading UFO hunter Jacques Valle sometime.

The problem with Philip Klass in my opinion was not his questions about UFO cases but that he was more a debunker then a skeptic. If he used his debunking "skills" on let's say the official Air Force report on Roswell he would have had a field day. Anybody would...

And regarding Jacques Vallée, he was a great asset to the study of UFOs and a UFO witness himself.

His first two books appear to be in favor of the ET hypothesis, totally different approach then Klass.


In the mid-1960s, like many other UFO researchers, Vallée initially attempted to validate the popular Extraterrestrial Hypothesis (or ETH). Leading UFO researcher Jerome Clark argues that Vallée's first two UFO books were among the most scientifically sophisticated defenses of the ETH ever mounted.


He then apparently changed his opinion, but the thing is he considered another possibility.


As an alternative to the extraterrestrial visitation hypothesis, Vallée has suggested a multidimensional visitation hypothesis. This hypothesis represents an extension of the ETH where the alleged extraterrestrials could be potentially from anywhere. The entities could be multidimensional beyond space-time, and thus could coexist with humans, yet remain undetected.

This is in my opinion a very interesting theory. This also indicates Vallée considered possiblities that were far more "out there" then Klass would ever even come close to consider.


I never heard of "debris of said something being flown to top foreign technology bases of the time to investigate."

I think what Gazrok meant was that there were flights to Wright Patterson and Los Alamos if I remember correctly were the debris was shipped. There were witnesses and possibly even flight logs confirming these flights. I'll see if I can find the links.

What's also a funny coincidence is that General Nathan Twining flew to New Mexico on the 7th of July and remained there to July 11th. Maybe he was interested in the "weather balloon".


In a newly declassified box of General Twining's papers, I found his flight log which shows that he indeed flew to New Mexico from Dayton on July 7, 1947. This was confirmed by his pilot's flight log as well.

www.v-j-enterprises.com...


"Facts are facts"as you say. But some things that are inferred and considered to be facts aren't necessarily facts.

Correct and this is essentially also very true for Klass and CSICOP for example. They still babble on about Mogul balloon train #4, the one that never flew.



This type of conversation gets uncomfortable as I imagine an 80 year old Klass must have found when confronted with a group of dogged UFO experts.

Indeed if you ignore things like the one stated above then such conversations can certainly become uncomfortable.


This is the biggest event in human history.

Why has no one come forward? Where is the convincing proof?

That's the whole point there have been many people that have come forward, many just before they died. And proof well what would be proof?

If you expect crash material or bodies I'm afraid that's not going to happen. And regarding secrecy, the H-bomb was kept under wraps tightly and many people were involved. If the ET presence is real it is rated much higher then the H-bomb I presume.





posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by Fastwalker81

regarding Jacques Vallée, he was a great asset to the study of UFOs and a UFO witness himself.

His first two books appear to be in favor of the ET hypothesis, totally different approach then Klass.

He then apparently changed his opinion, but the thing is he considered another possibility.





Sorry, but Vallee adopts an attitude to keep the door open for other dimensional possibilities for alien existence after he politely concludes the whole UFO establishment is a 3-ring circus.





If you expect crash material or bodies I'm afraid that's not going to happen. And regarding secrecy, the H-bomb was kept under wraps tightly and many people were involved. If the ET presence is real it is rated much higher then the H-bomb I presume.





I know, I know, the Big Bad US military and intelligence is keeping all the UFO information and evidence a Big Secret. It only took a couple years for the A-Bomb secrets to get out despite the ultra-high security.

Nothing leaked and no one's talking about the UFOs 60 years later. Except military officers like the esteemed Col. Corso who seem to be able to remember what he had for lunch on May 12 1957, but no clear details on the saucers or aliens.

Unless the Roswell debris is stored away in sealed boxes hundred, by now thousands of scientists, technicians, routine staffers would have some knowledge of the material and the information yielded.

The default in this type of discussion is the government threatens their livelihoods and lives if they say something.


The world I live has mostly ordinary people and is not the same as the last scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" where the Ark of the Covenant is stored forgotten in some Military warehouse.

Commerce, greed, betrayal, curiosity, self-serving interest, are what makes things happen.


So again, factoring in everything, including various memos, logs of flights, the credibility of witnesses, how human beings behave and how the world works (not the movie fantasy world) I'll take it on faith the Roswell evidence is stored in the sealed US govt secret warehouse with the Ark of the Covenant, the Immortal Angel, the dinosaur, the Demon, the leprechaun pot of gold, and other items they want to keep from the public.


Sorry, I don't buy all those byzantine conspiratorial excuses for lack of proof. If my kid gave me tall tales like this expecting me to buy them I'd whack him.


Mike F



posted on Feb, 11 2009 @ 06:57 AM
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Major Jesse Marcell had initially inspected the site. "major!"......i am sure someone of his calibre would know the difference between a weather balloon/mogul and something not "of this world"

Something big happened here people and we need to remember that.

1ST DAY NEWSPAPER "RAAF captures flying disk"
2nd day "oh, we made amistake its a weather balloon" yeah right !

We may never know exactly what occured, but for sure it was no weather balloon.
Marcell has recieved a lot of flack over reporting what he saw and was the scapegoat in the tin foil presentation photos with Gen Ramey. We need to show some admiration and respect for Marcell as he sacrificed a lot to do what he did in the years following 1947.



posted on Feb, 11 2009 @ 10:49 AM
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think what Gazrok meant was that there were flights to Wright Patterson and Los Alamos if I remember correctly were the debris was shipped. There were witnesses and possibly even flight logs confirming these flights. I'll see if I can find the links.


Actually, specifically, the flights to Wright Field (as it was called at the time) and Ft. Worth.

There is press backup for the flight to Ft. Worth, as Marcel accompanied the debris in the flight, and then appeared in the pictures that are now part of history. (those pics were taken in Ft. Worth, where Marcel is holding up balloon material, which he claims was not the actual debris). So, we know the flight to Ft. Worth is FACT. As for the flights to Wright Field, we have the testimony of the flight crews themselves, and the officers who ordered the flights.

For actual logs, may be tricky, as many records from 1947 were "conveniently" destroyed in a rather infamous records fire. A few years back, Popular Mechanics had an article with a log for Roswell for the day in question. This log showed no activity...which is an "oops" on the part of whomever planted it, as the flight to Ft. Worth cannot be disputed.

Even skeptics (like Klass) assert that Ramey ordered the flight to Wright Field, they just say Ramey cancelled it after the weather balloon photo session. The pilots of the flight disagree...


1ST DAY NEWSPAPER "RAAF captures flying disk"
2nd day "oh, we made amistake its a weather balloon" yeah right !


Yep, I'd still like to know how one mistakes a six-pointed star (i.e. RAWIN target as claimed by the military) for a "disc". It's like mistaking a child's jacks for marbles....and to make such a mistake, you'd have to be missing a few.....

[edit on 11-2-2009 by Gazrok]



posted on Feb, 11 2009 @ 07:02 PM
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It was July 3rd not seventh. It might have been the 2nd, but late at night.



posted on Feb, 11 2009 @ 11:19 PM
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Originally posted by scottishhuman
Major Jesse Marcell had initially inspected the site. "major!"......i am sure someone of his calibre would know the difference between a weather balloon/mogul and something not "of this world"

Something big happened here people and we need to remember that.

1ST DAY NEWSPAPER "RAAF captures flying disk"
2nd day "oh, we made amistake its a weather balloon" yeah right !

We may never know exactly what occured, but for sure it was no weather balloon.
Marcell has recieved a lot of flack over reporting what he saw and was the scapegoat in the tin foil presentation photos with Gen Ramey. We need to show some admiration and respect for Marcell as he sacrificed a lot to do what he did in the years following 1947.




I guess you haven't read through this thread or done too much investigation. Marcel demonstrably supplied incorrect information to enhance his involvement and the importance of what happened at the prompting of UFOlogists.

The Hollywood version of Roswell, with a heroic major involved in covering up the biggest event of all time by the monolithically secretive US intelligence - appeals to some people more than the actual truth.

Aging officer approached 30 years later and told some uneventful transferring of fallen debris of possible political sensitivity was something of great importance. With nothing to lose and something to gainhe goes along with the story ssentially being fed to him, altering what he can remember to fit the wild scenario.

Except for some ambiguous paperwork and dubious reporting, not a scintilla of evidence for solid testimony on what would have been mankind's greatest discovery.

But some prefer scifi-fantasy stories to unglamorous reality.

People like Stanton Friedman make modest livings pushing this stuff, and there are new customers every day.


MF



posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 05:48 AM
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Originally posted by mmiichael
I guess you haven't read through this thread or done too much investigation. Marcel demonstrably supplied incorrect information to enhance his involvement and the importance of what happened at the prompting of UFOlogists.

Maybe he did read through the thread and found like many others that the Air Force story is utter bunk. Then when looking into it more maybe he found out that the people who were actually there told a story vastly different then the crash of a simple weather balloon and the dropping of crash dummies from a plane.


The Hollywood version of Roswell, with a heroic major involved in covering up the biggest event of all time by the monolithically secretive US intelligence - appeals to some people more than the actual truth.

And what would this actual truth be if I may ask?


Aging officer approached 30 years later and told some uneventful transferring of fallen debris of possible political sensitivity was something of great importance. With nothing to lose and something to gainhe goes along with the story ssentially being fed to him, altering what he can remember to fit the wild scenario.

If Marcel was the only officer that made these claims the whole incident would not even be known today. The truth is that literally dozens of military men and civilians told the same story as Marcel. Of course the more plausible explanation is that they are all lying.


And what did Marcel and the others actually gain? The answer to this question becomes painfully clear even when reading this thread. Yes the answer is ridicule. They have been attacked and accused of being lyers even decades after they passed away and the thing is, they didn't even make a dollar.


People like Stanton Friedman make modest livings pushing this stuff, and there are new customers every day.

Ah the money angle.

You seem like an intelligent person Mike so I will assume you are educated. When you went to college the books you read were authored by scientists just like Friedman. Do you really think they wrote these books for free? Did you stand up in your classroom proclaiming: This is bunk, the author obviously made money with this and therefore this cannot be the truth?

Futhermore Stanton Friedman would have made a lot more money if he went on with his career in Physics.


Stanton T. Friedman received BSc and MSc degrees in physics from the University of Chicago in 1955 and 1956. He was employed for 14 years as a nuclear physicist for such companies as GE, GM, Westinghouse, TRW Systems, Aerojet General Nucleonics, and McDonnell Douglas on such advanced, classified, eventually cancelled, projects as nuclear aircraft, fission and fusion rockets, and nuclear powerplants for space.



[edit on 12/2/09 by Fastwalker81]



posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 12:00 PM
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Fastwalker,

Got to do some work today and just not in cut'n'paste mode.

On Mr Friedman, by the beginning of the 70s there were tens of thousands of people in the US with similar or better scientific credentials. We have no idea at what level he worked, how good his performance was, what his specialized area was, etc. There are often dead ends in emerging science where a new technology replaces or what you know, and what you do best is no longer in demand. Unemployment in scientific jobs is not uncommon.

All we know is that he started writing about UFOs in the 70s and has been doing so since.

It's obvious my message has not been conveyed. From what I see, and I think anyone else looking at the weight of evidence - there is confusion and conflicting statements made in 1947, and exacerbated by UFO researchers highlighting some of the evidence decades later but avoiding conflicting information.

We could argue point by point till doomsday. Facts have been blended in with self-serving disinformation and skewed interpretations almost inextricably.

There is a vast networked high level scientific community in the US. 60+ on, no foreign agents stealing the secrets, no rogue employees, no sliver of alien metal. Not a word from anyone who saw, dealt with, handled, analyzed, discussed, the aliens of craft.

You might accept pulp fiction scenarios that US intelligence agents warned all of them that their lives and their families were threatened.


Again. Contact with an another advanced intelligence with the ability to traverse light years in a spacecraft is the single biggest scientific event in our history.

Friedman and the UFO community tell us it's all locked away in a storage facility and being kept a secret. They show is a pile of cherry-picked memos and and interview quotes. They make a buck on a conference circuit, selling books and DVDs.

The top scientists in the world, well connected people on top of whatever’s relevant to areospace and security, know nothing about this and laugh if it is brought up.

It is not even conceivable something of this magnitude could be successfully kept a secret from the scientific world for 62 years.


Mike F



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 10:03 PM
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reply to post by TheMythLives
 


It wasn't a balloon.
Check out Crash at Corona by Stanton Friedman.
The military gathered up the debris and Top Hat UFO
that was damaged. This is where we got Fiber Optic cable.
Back in 1947 they said it looked like horse hair.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 03:22 PM
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Um a few things I wanted to clear up- in one of the threads below someone said that it was a seven year old neighbor child that was with Brazel, no that was his son.- Also the only fluke I can find with the balloon bomb is that the actual recovered artifact was hexagonal in shape, not a spherical disk or cube, also look at Brazels place on a map and look at how far the balloons fuel could get it and how high it actually could fly, also take into account the military existence. I agree that whatever it was it was not ours (U.S.) you are correct, if it was one of ours we would have known it went down, and we would have known where to search, instead pop had to wait until he went back into town to tell the sheriff.-
The Brazel family and my family were friends when this happened, and not once have I heard that an "alien body" was found, Pop said that he saw what looked like a body, my guess is that it was charred or mutilated by the wreck.-
The glyphs on the metal, as said in another post, was probably another language, be it Japanese, Chinese, Russian, German, or what have you. The metal itself is a bit more tricky, the son(I cannot remember his name for the life of me) said that it had a feeling that he had never felt, and that it was different from normal metal, but the only metals country folk were exposed to are foil, and the metal their tools are made of, it could have been a new alloy being tested in aircraft, or whatever you believe it was, he said it was bendable, but different. -
As for Pop Brazel, the Agent took him away for a while, I can't remember if it was 1 day or 3 or a week, but when they brought him back he was a "changed man". -
The 200 yard debris field- this means that it was either going very fast, or it was very big. A balloon just doesn't make sense, Pop discovered it in a trench-like place so the wind couldn't have been very strong, the impact trench I haven't seen so I do not know if it exists or if it was the pre-existing trench that was dug up to recover any underlying debris.
hmmmm, well that's all I can think of for now, I mean no offense to anyone, I am just writing what I know, and what I have been told. Please tell me your thoughts on anything I have written.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 03:38 PM
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A UFO did really crash at Roswell. I don't buy into the official government explanation. What a load of crap the official government explanation is.



[edit on 5-1-2010 by sphinx551]



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