Vatican attacks US abortion move

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Annee

Fine - if that is your belief - then don't do it.

Very Simple.

My belief one way or the other was not my point. I was showing how people spin a very negitive thing to look like something good. If you choose life then it is not "pro choice", but "pro life", so my point is call it what it is...

Pro-choice supports the death or life of a baby.
Pro-life supports the life of a baby.

So calling it pro-death would not make sense, would it?

While I look down on someone who goes through the whole process of an abortion just because they did not take birth control or use a condom, I also do not like the idea of that person now being financially broke the rest of their life or tossing the kid on somebody else to care of.

The idea of killing an innocent "baby" (or whatever you call it) does not turn on a happy switch, I still think it is better for the majority of man kind rather then having a child with parents that do not want it.

On top of being pro-choice, I still think measures need to be taken to teach people that having a kid is no joke - ESPECIALLY if you can not maintain it.

reply to post by Annee

My mom was also a polio victim during the 1951 epidemic. I can't even imagine if she had also been pregnant again at the time - as there were already 3 of us under 5 years old. And my father ran off with another woman because he couldn't handle having a disabled wife. Fortunately her mother - a widow at the time - moved in and took care of us. My mom would have been fully justified in having an abortion if she had been pregnant. Fortunately she wasn't. Walk someone else's life - - before you get all self righteous.

Congratulations to your mother, your grand-mother and to yourself! I do hope your mom is alive today but that may be asking too much for your grandmother although I met a 93 year old lady yesterday who could pass for 70.

Unfortunately, it seems civilizations have to go through this about every 150 years. This too will pass and when it has, we can get on with science, intellectualism and progress, burying these antediluvian proto-Neanderthals where they belong. The dust bin of history.

The Anti-Choice people are BANKRUPT. If their argument was persuasive, everyone would follow their prescription for life and living and there would be no controversy.

Instead, hardly anyone wants to follow those harsh rules unevenly applied. And largely promoted by what I call the mega-church phenomenon.

Then by sly and devious ways, they work mightily to subvert the government to do for them what they cannot do for themselves. FORCE their own myopic point of view on others. Religious bigots. Religiously intolerant.

Originally posted by donwhite
Unfortunately, it seems civilizations have to go through this about every 150 years. This too will pass and when it has, we can get on with science, intellectualism and progress, burying these antediluvian proto-Neanderthals where they belong. The dust bin of history.

It's already full of the innocent unborn disposed of by this sophisticated culture which, on this issue, chooses to ignore science and talk about "personhood" - show me where science has discovered the quality of personhood?

The Anti-Choice people are BANKRUPT. If their argument was persuasive, everyone would follow their prescription for life and living and there would be no controversy.

Not every right argument is persuasive. For the last eight years pleanty in america have felt that way. Convenience is often more persuasive than reason, want more than need.

Then by sly and devious ways, they work mightily to subvert the government to do for them what they cannot do for themselves. FORCE their own myopic point of view on others. Religious bigots. Religiously intolerant.

The slyness and deviousness is all in the arguments that allow the destruction of human life. One prime example is calling themselves "pro-choice" theres deviousness in its most naked form. Science and reason are enough to show abortion is the destruction of one human life by another without reference to religion.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Brian2384

If your ready or not to have a child, if it's just going to be in the way of a career, social life, etc. But what gets me is that men are not involved in this equation until monthly payments are wanted. Then all of a sudden their are two parties involved. Hey, where are my rights? Why don't I have access to birth control? Well, other than condoms.

If you think those are the only reasons for aborting you would be wrong. (yes I did see you added "etc"). There are more complicated reasons - such as mental illness - abusiveness - financial - living situations - divorce - a living child requiring full time attention. Its so easy for outsiders to make idealistic statements - when they have no idea the turmoil some go through in making this permanent choice.

As far as men go. Right or Wrong as a woman/mother/grandmother who understands what women have had to put up with from the beginning of time - I have very little concern or compassion for men when it comes to abortion.

Did you read my posts on government supported mandatory DNA testing for paternity? That's where men need to start.

Yes, I understand that there are many reasons for abortion eg. rape. And you are right that I don't understand the turmoil that some go through. But I also have little concern or compassion for women such as in this picture.

I see it as complete self centeredness. What are your thoughts if the father wanted to have a child? Should he have any say on whether his child completes gestation or not?

And yes, I read your idea on mandatory DNA testing and mandatory financial support or jail. How about the signing of a waiver releasing the man of responsibility when you chose to have a child and he does not? Does that sound fair?

It's tough all over and women aren't the only ones who have to make hard decisions.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick

It's not a tragedy.

Aids is not a tragedy? Killing innocent babies who didn't ask to be born just because you can't handle 9 months of walking around with a larger dress size? and you say I'M BLIND! GET REAL!

You are here arguing for a position you have taken or think you may have to some day, I don't know which and I don't care because it comes from a place that didn't happen when you were born but wouild have been better suited for you if it had because then you wouldn't have to superimpose your negative outlook on the innocent with such shallow and self centered self serving and sophomoric excuses for it.

You're blind statements make no sense

Yeah and sometimes too much alchohol is not enough but having dyslexia is NUF! Talk about not making sense. Here lets ZERO in on your central message where you rest the entire weight of your argument and the naked truth to your skin deep values for what it is you are REALLY advocating here shall we.

. No birth control method is %100 accurate

yeah and no automobile is 100% safe so I guess we should kill all the cars and quit driving them. No toothpaste is 100$ effective in fighting cavities so I guess we should just quit brushing our teeth. No deoderant is 100% effective fighting perspiration so I guess we should all quit bothering to take a shower since we are going to stink anyway.

Only a very small percentage of people using contraceptives get pregnant so I tell ya what! Lets invest BILLIONS into a new system to punish those that fell through the proverbial cracks in the latex and KILL 57,000 of THEM instead of being more educated and investing that same amount of money in alternative solutions. NOOO you want to see it go to places like Planned ParentBlood planning the un-family and running gulags called abortion killinics buying into all this idiotic rhetoric and semantic use of language where Baby is now "fetus" and infanticide is now "abortion" in a sugar coated effort to make killing the innocent much more sterile. I mean really why the hell do you think they HAVE such benign names for things we would otherwise refer to as having the distinction of being another human life worthy of the same rights you and I enjoy.

What he didn't pass the age requirment?

This is in no way similar to HIV AIDS.

(shakin head like a cartoon!) wha! huh! are you trying to imply that I thought gays could get pregnant having anal sex, hence the similarity?

NO I don't think you did moreoever I think you understood the point I was making very well but incase you did not, Ill rephrase as the wordsmithing you are attempting to use here is getting by NO ONE above a 6 year old level of understanding. The logic you used to justify your sexual indescretion and lack of accountability for your actions using abortion as a solution rather than taking responsibility for said actions makes for a lousy excuse to be adding to a growing and insensitive number of people who like yourself have NO business having sex if they can't see what is missing here. It is called GROWING UP! and not making your own flesh and blood DIE for the mistakes its mother made in the name of such noble causes like,, umm ONE NIGHT STANDS! The Rythm method! or the need to just GET OFF! Yeah how DARE some consequence like a living thing get in the way of you getting your freak on!

How DARE someone buzz kill my life and my options just because i didn't know sex is about PRO CREATION! I mean I didn't know babies are born this way I thought the stork did that stuff! So it isn't our fault. So OFF WITH ITS HEAD!

I'm looking at it for what it really is. A choice only to be made by the person who has something growing inside one of their organs. You can have the opinion you like, but you are in no place to make the decision for any woman in the situation.

ya know I took a woman to court many years ago to fight for my rightful biological DNA investment in that womans so called right to choose but I think the double standards woman like you are making to excuse this senseless destruction of human life is tantamount to OJ getting off the hook everytime one of these heinous acts is performed.

While you argue about the miniscule amount of occurances someone raped actually gets pregnant, the fact is it is negligible to say the very least moreover, while your rapist gets in another unlawfull act resulting in a pregnant woman getting murdered, he is likely to get TWO counts of murder for killing the baby too but if YOU wanted to murder the child, then OH NO then it's different then it is about CHOICE and not a capital crime committed.

Your Body Your Body Blah Blah Blah ! You two should have thougt about that before you were set to let your hormones make your lifes choices for you rather than your intellect.

I'm looking at it for what it really is. A choice only to be made by the person who has something growing inside one of their organs. You can have the opinion you like, but you are in no place to make the decision for any woman in the situation.

It's not ONLY about YOU! What the hell do you think you are "I, ME, MY, Incorporated?" I don't know about you but the angst I would have is that YOU killed my kid if I was the father and I would bury you in frivolous lawsuits till you found a better calling in life than to just do what ever feels good with no regard for anyone else but your self.

The child isn't a child until birth? HA HA HA what is it two minutes before coming out of the vagina after nine months? a Paper weight!

reply to post by Mdv2


So for the record are you saying you agree or disagree with the obama administration on this? It's obvious you disagree with the Vatican but as a Christian where do you stand on the issue itself?

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


Abortion is not free will though. Who asks the baby what he wants? Noone, they just murder the child and call it the mother's choice. That kind of reasoning suggests that my wife has the legal choice to kill my 1 year old son. Hey, it's the mother's choice. There's always adoption people !!!!

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


I strongly disagree with you there. Even in the womb that being is an individual that can feel and move, even smile. It takes a monster to commit abortions.

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


And I'm sick of the sick abortion supporters perverting everything in life to better suit their needs. It is a child in the womb, and it is murder. Look up your biology. It's not an egg plant in that womb, it's not an elephant, it's not a computer desk, it's a human life. How in the world can you legitimize saying that a human is not a human as long as it lives inside a uterus?

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


Oh, my God, now you are refering to a human child as a parasite? It's a darn good thing your parents didn't think the way you do.

Originally posted by FritosBBQTwist

Pro-choice supports the death or life of a baby.
Pro-life supports the life of a baby.

So calling it pro-death would not make sense, would it?

Why wouldn't it? It would for those you just said support death and the pro lifers notwithstanding, looking at what is being said here, I'd say that's all of em.

On top of being pro-choice, I still think measures need to be taken to teach people that having a kid is no joke - ESPECIALLY if you can not maintain it.

No you are putting the cart before the horse and it is SEX we have to take more serious and know more the responsibilities of it.

reply to post by Christian Voice


A valid point, if it's not a human being women must spend the nine months of pregnancy terrified of what they're going to give birth to: an elephant, a giraffe, a car - what will it be if its not human????

Strange a pregnant woman knows what she's going to give birth to in nine months if its not human. Why worry about having to feed a child if that's not even what she might be carrying?

Originally posted by Christian Voice

And I'm sick of the sick abortion supporters perverting everything in life to better suit their needs. It is a child in the womb, and it is murder. Look up your biology. It's not an egg plant in that womb, it's not an elephant, it's not a computer desk, it's a human life. How in the world can you legitimize saying that a human is not a human as long as it lives inside a uterus?

yeah who would have ever thougth the most dangerous place for a child to grow up,, would be in its mothers womb

reply to post by Supercertari

The Anti-Choice people are BANKRUPT. If their argument was persuasive, everyone would follow their prescription for life and living and there would be no controversy.

Not every right argument is persuasive. For the last eight years plenty in America have felt that way. Convenience is often more persuasive than reason, want more than need.

Mind or thought control. It seems the staunchest proponents of the "my way or the highway" have an agenda to use whatever means are available to force their will on others. And that is not right.

Gentle persuasion is the only way forward.

Don't ya just love the self righteous.

But now we have an intelligent man in office.

One who so far - recognizes the rights of individuals - and their choices.

Saint, your answers are devious. ‘What has God okay'd?”

**You are sidestepping the fact that there are many passages in your book where god not only “ok’s” killing babies and other, but Commands it!
It seems that this god goes against his word frequently.

Hard thinking=their decision. No god needed. What if in their hard thinking they were asking god what they should do? Oh, I know - against his word. Your god commanding that women’s bellies be ripped open and the babies be dashed on the rocks……What exactly do you say that is? Your god talks out of both sides of his mouth? Sort of “do as I say, not as I do”.
Some example he sets. So we were made in his image…..that becomes evidential.

No, I am not being facetious. Enforced pregnancy is Slavery.

No, life doesn’t “suck” for me. It has been great. You might even say that I have lead a charmed life.
I didn’t say it wasn’t worth living. Death is a part of the life cycle. Accept it. When you are dead you are dead., and you likely don’t even know it. If I had never been born, why would I care?

Aermacchi
Morals are mostly subjective. What is moral to you may seem immoral to me and vice-versa.
I do not believe in any “god”. When I write of such, I do so as a means of communicating with those who do.
You say: “It isn't like it is that much of a burden for her then is it? “
***You are kidding? I take it you are male therefore you don’t know what you are talking about. Tell you what. You get a sack large enough to hold 15 to 20 pounds - of something such as flour. Now you strap this sack onto your front side and at first you put in just one ounce of flour. Now then, over the next 9 months you keep adding flour every day until you have 20 pounds of it. Now you cannot ever put this sack down or take it off, but must carry it 24/7. I’ll spare you the morning sickness. On the last day I want you to tak a strong laxative - one that will give you really bad, painful cramping. When the cramping ceases you can consider that you have given birth. After you have completed this little exercize you get back to me and we will talk about how easy it was.

I really do not care when YOU think life begins. My number one concern is my body.. -- You just try to tell me what to do with it. Now then, is there any other area of my life that you have difficulties with?

And then you have the audacity to state: “If woman want to have so much damn control of their body then I say let them perform their own damn abortion and if they die trying I'd call that "Poetic Justice" and their is no justice like poetic justice. “

***How dare we demand that we own our own bodies. You really come across like a very hateful person. I’ll bet you have those deep creases between your eyebrows, and maybe across the bridge of your nose too.

And you said it again: “I said you have no business having sex NOT you have no RIGHT to have sex.”
****You did say I have no business having sex. So I have a right to, but I should not, because you say so?
Further you say: “it is SEX we have to take more serious and know more the responsibilities of it.”

***Yes, I will agree with you there. Now all we need is for you horny men to remember this when you are with your girl friends and keep your paws off. Sex runs your life. You are the aggressors. You are the ones who most of the time initiate the act. So how about preaching to the men?

Yes, every word you write speaks of a totalitarian mind set.
I agree with you; your are an ogre. And a vindictive one at that.

Aha!, I see part of your problem.. You got ticked off because your wife/girl friend didn’t want to serve as an involuntary incubator. Typical male thinking that just because they get sex that they own the woman. You seem to have been born 1000 years to late for that.
When you made this “DNA investment” was there a mutual understanding that this was to be a purposeful event?

Zero, you are getting really far off there. Your mother may be cramping your style, but is she clinging to your body? Why don’t you just be Pro-choice , quit free-loading and get your own house?

Christian voice, you too are getting off the trail also…..no one is talking about killing a 1 year old.
So, it takes a monster to do an abortion….how about the monster that would enforce pregnancy on an unwilling woman?
Your arguments are getting silly.




[edit on 30-1-2009 by OhZone]

reply to post by Aermacchi

You are here arguing for a position you have taken or think you may have to some day, I don't know which and I don't care because it comes from a place that didn't happen when you were born but wouild have been better suited for you if it had because then you wouldn't have to superimpose your negative outlook on the innocent . .

I don’t know who deserves credit or blame for the current brouhaha over abortion in the US. James Dobson, who I call the Pope of Colorado? Oral Robert’s son, Richard, the young man who has zipper troubles. Jimmy “Cry me a River” Swaggart, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker; Jim who went to jail and Tammy who went to bed with her favorite contractor.

Then there is that elite group of millionaire mega-church owners. Like Florida’s T. James Kennedy, a former Arthur Murray dance with rich old ladies con-man; Robert Schuler of the Glass Cathedral in California who slapped the first class steward for being slow and for which the Glass Cathedral paid $30,000; and Joel Ostein whose feminine like mannerisms make me wonder if he may by half way through a sex change? Not to overlook the strident San Antonio anti gay mafioso-like Rev. Hagee.

I attribute this very smart move to the original founders of the NRBA. National Religious Broadcasters Association. By the late 1970s these guys had a simple plan. NEVER compromise! It must always be 100% for us. Like Bush43's “No Child Left Behind” these fellows did it first, “No Fetus Left Behind.”

Very few people I have met have ever read the decision in Roe v. Wade. I still have a copy of it in my reference file. It is still on-line if anyone cares to speak factually about Roe. 99.44% of religionists don’t care what it says and worse, don’t want to know! For you who either care or are curious, let me explain.

The human gestation period is generally given as between 240 to 300 days. Average 270 days. 9 months. 39 weeks. In 1973 it was considered any infant weighing 5 lbs 8 oz at birth was “full term” and those who weighed less were premature. The Supreme Court divided a pregnancy into 3 trimesters. Well, ok, I know that’s redundant. Each period was more or less 3 months - 13 weeks - in length but varies from woman to woman and from pregnancy to pregnancy.

Before the drugstore pregnancy tests, it was accepted that if a woman missed 2 successive menstrual periods she was pregnant. I’m talking 1973. The first trimester has begun. Then there comes a time when the fetus QUICKENS. That is, the fetus kicks the mother. This is the start of the second trimester.

Then comes the 3rd trimester. The doctor has to guess when it starts. This is usually the 25th or 26th week of pregnancy. It is the time when an infant can live outside the womb. This is in turn largely a factor of fetal lung development. Can it breathe on its own? Modern medical practice can usually keep a 25 week old fetus alive but almost always the infant will suffer physical handicaps and maybe mental as well. Not good.

Roe v. Wade. The Supreme Court said, ”The woman’s right of privacy prohibits any interference with the woman and her physician in the first trimester. It’s up to her if she stays pregnant or not.”

As relates to the second trimester, the Supreme Court said that during the second trimester, “The government can only interfere to assure the woman a safe abortion should she so elect.”

The 3rd trimester was entirely different however. Here the Supreme Court said the states can make ANY REASONABLE RULES REGARDING AN ABORTION. Up to and including prohibiting abortions in some instances.

The HARD Right Wing Religionists knew if they compromised at all, their cause was LOST. No political power. No money coming in. No adulation from the true believers. For the leaders, the life of luxury - private jets - yachts - several houses - would be over before it started.

They were very knowledgeable of their constituency. It is now 36 years post Roe. Through constant haranguing and endless exaggeration and ignoring the very real possibility to stop late term abortions - hey some must die to save more - they have kept up the fight and will never give up. What a waste! And it all made possible by the single issue voter! The Devils bargain!

[edit on 1/30/2009 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Annee

Walk someone else's life - - before you get all self righteous.

You keep missing my point in once you start down a path there is no defined end to it. It’s like freedom of speech; in once you start burning books it becomes hard to say when the burning stop should.

Now you might think abortion are good for mankind and they bring freedom and happiness, but I do not.

Abortions hurts our society more than they would ever help. No woman is proud of an abortion and they haunt them the rest of their lives, Government ends up putting a price to the value of life and offers free abortions just so there isn’t a chance of that baby coming into the world that might cost the state more. Reasons to have abortions get very weak and artificial over the years too. The whole process weakens society as a whole.



[edit on 31-1-2009 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by donwhite
Religious bigots. Religiously intolerant.

Not a single post of mine on this subject has a thing to do with religion. I just see it as morally wrong to pick and choose who should live and who should die, and I don't like putting different values on life.

The majority of abortions are done out of conveniences, doesn’t that bother you at all?

Originally posted by Annee
Don't ya just love the self righteous.

Hmm who is self righteous here, people who feel all human life should have equal value, or those who do not want deal with the responsibilities of their own actions nor the inconvenience that a life they bring into the world would cause them.