Vatican attacks US abortion move

onereply to post by Supercertari


I never said "human life" was a grey area. I said Abortion was morally grey.

I don't believe killing a person is a morally grey area. If you want to argue this than please refer to my previous post.

I am Jewish. I do believe in God, or a God, or the God (however you would like to word it, whatever makes you happy), and I don't believe that people should just be allowed to get abortions because they don't want a kid. However, I do believe that people in this world have children in a state of their life when they should not have children. I believe that these people have children and end up doing terrible things to them. These people abuse them and abandon them because their religion says they must keep these children.

The truth of the matter is that no child is certain until they are born.

Abortion Law is an arguement made up by modern day Christians. In the 613 laws (613 Mitzvot) decreed by Moses, not one says a thing about ending the life of an unborn child.

Abortion Law is a grey area.

Abortion is a choice. Whether it be the right choice or not, it is a choice, and it is not the publics choice to decide!

I want to be mad that you simply thought I was saying that life is a grey area, but I can't. Just understand I don't think abortion is the right course all the time, but I do believe that in America, quote un-quote land of the free, a women should be able to choose what she wants for her body and herself. She risks her life to give birth, and it is her decision.

[edit on 30-1-2009 by Zenic]

I'm glad you weren't mad at me as my comments were not directed at you, they were directed at the sophistry which surrounds this question from the pro-abortion rights lobby.

The "save the child from a cruel life" angle is another piece of sophistry where people set themselves up to pronounce on the quality of a life that will, if aborted, never have the chance to have any quality of life.

Moses did not need to make a specific law against abortion as the prescriptions against musder were quite plain and Judaism had yet to be infected by the sophistry of the graeco-roman world. It was in response to this practise as manifest in the Civilizations of the time that early Christian theologians universally condemned the practise of abortion and have done ever since.

Abortion Law is not a grey area because once it is a legalized practise it has made a definitive decision that the human life of the person within the women is expendable. The question of when "personhood" begins is given a statuatory answer whether people say it is "above their pay grade" or not their decisions and actions presume in favour of it not.

No person, no matter their gender, should presume the right to decide wether another life will be allowed to continue to exist or not. The States primary, and perhaps only, purpose is to protect the common good in terms of a persons "life, liberty and estates" the sanctioned action of abortion deprives the human life in the womb of all three.

(Double Post)

[edit on 30/1/09 by Supercertari]

Ah Jeez!! I am not sure why you people that defend the right to choose bother. It is my opinion that most that are against it have absolutely nothing better to do with their time then to stick their noses where they do not belong. I don't know what it is about trampling other people’s choices or rights but its getting extremely ridiculous. I would like to know when their going to grow up and develop a brain and worry about what their doing instead of the guy or gal next door... what it is not enough attention from mommy or daddy? Did you get picked on in school by the bully and no one helped you or cared?

When are you going to finally step down from your morally astute religiously righteous all knowing pedestal and start letting people make their own choices? If it does not affect you physically why do you care? If it affects you mentally or emotionally then guess what? Who cares it's up to you whether you let the latter bug you it's your brain use it and worry about yourself. I mean come on are your lives so sad that you have to go around looking for people that don't believe that way you do and start you own personal crusades? GET a LIFE!!!!!

There are way more important things going on in this world then being so petty and pushing your pettiness and religious beliefs on others when the others didn’t ask you for your opinion in the first place. It makes me sick that people even protest this crap. Protest the corrupt governments that screw you out of your life’s work. Protest corporations for stealing you blind and selling your jobs off to foreign works as slave labor. Protest all the banks and bankers for stealing from your kids and grandkids!!

Seriously it's like a select group of the population cares more about what others do then the welfare of their own lives and that of their families. If IS NOT YOU LIFE LEAVE IT ALONE AND WORRY ABOUT YOURSELVES.

It we wanted to hear preaching we would go to www.holierthenthou.org or attend church with all the other religious fanatics on all those various days of the week that they go to that rubbish. I mean hell if I really wanted to hear it or anyone else for that matter it’s even on TV. This is a Conspiracy Forum not a religious site for you to preach on there are plenty of those on the net.

WHO CARES WHAT YOU THINK. It's neither your body nor your life so why do you feel you have to stick your nose in other peoples business. The mother gets to choose what comes out of her body when she wants it. If she wants to abort it's her choice and is on her conscience.

And last but not Least you have absolutely no right to even grip about this topic unless you actually go out of your way to take care of the millions of kids that could have been aborted but instead are stuck in the system with no one but the government to take care of them!! I’ll bet 1 maybe 2 of the people on this board actually adopted one of these kids most would never think of it as long as you get to satisfy some moronic moral need to trample on others live because you believe more in some book then in reality.

It’s no wonder this world is falling to $h1T, it’s because there are way too many busy bodies and I’m morally superior to you so do what I say idiots running around complaining about what other private citizens do instead of using that energy to fix the only world they have to live in.

I applaud all you that fight for individual’s rights to choose their own path in life...Bravo!!!!!

By all means flame away as I have disagreed with your opinion as it is my right and Personal CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for that interesting little rant, allow me to point out what’s hypocritical in it for you:

Originally posted by Aleksander
I don't know what it is about trampling other people’s choices or rights but its getting extremely ridiculous. ... what it is not enough attention from mommy or daddy? Did you get picked on in school by the bully and no one helped you or cared?

Aborting human life is the trampling of other people’s choices or rights in its most absolute form it is removing from them their life and their choices and their rights. I fortunately have had more attention from my parents than the half hour’s attention these children receive when they are dismembered and hovered out of the womb. I speak to help those for whom so many do not care.

GET a LIFE!!!!!

Yes, that’s what we are trying to do, ensure these children get to enjoy their lives.

Protest the corrupt governments that screw you out of your life’s work. Protest corporations for stealing you blind and selling your jobs off to foreign works as slave labor. Protest all the banks and bankers for stealing from your kids and grandkids!!

Yes, I do indeed protest a world in which human lives are disposable if they jeopardise the pursuit of the mighty dollar.

Seriously it's like a select group of the population cares more about what others do then the welfare of their own lives and that of their families.

The culture of death is one which threatens and corrupts the whole of society, from me individually, through the family and into the broader community.

This is a Conspiracy Forum not a religious site for you to preach on there are plenty of those on the net.

Indeed it is, I already referred to Kissinger’s NSSA 200 and the policy of the US to export birth control and abortion to ensure the US continues to enjoy its disproportionate share of the world’s resources. You may have missed that.

The mother gets to choose what comes out of her body when she wants it.

Does she? Can she choose money to come out of her body like a slot machine – if she can there’s the credit crunch fixed!

because you believe more in some book then in reality.

Scientific reality has been noted on this thread but again its easier to ignore when you can engage in a rant about such ephemeral concepts as “personhood”, “rights”, “choice” etc. Abortion is the ending of an innocent human life

It’s no wonder this world is falling to $h1T, it’s because there are way too many busy bodies and I’m morally superior to you so do what I say idiots running around complaining about what other private citizens do instead of using that energy to fix the only world they have to live in.

Indeed there are, one of them is President Obama who has decided to fund interfering in other countries family planning and birth rates.

I applaud all you that fight for individual’s rights to choose their own path in life...Bravo!!!!!

Thanks for that applause, though it shouldn’t deserve it really all we are doing is trying to allow those children the right to continue on the path of life begun at conception.

By all means flame away as I have disagreed with your opinion as it is my right and Personal CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!

Enjoy that and don’t forget to thank your mother for giving you the opportunity to do so by not having you aborted.

Originally posted by 5thElement
Sorry for not answering your questions.

Q: How many God has created ?

A: ZERO

I think this answers about all of them

My documentation says:

"So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind." - Genesis 1:21

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." - Genesis 1:27

"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." - Revelation 4:11

"Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things." - Ephesians 3:8-9

Originally posted by Supercertari
When human life begins is NOT a grey area. Here's what science says:

Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc

The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote
Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins

Good facts representative of the textbooks I'd studied for my biology degree.

Anyone can find someone - even a professional - especially on the net - who agrees with them.

Fact is - science & doctors are just as much at odds as when life starts as any other group of people.

Finding someone who agrees with your point of view - means nothing. Except that you found someone who agrees with your point of view.

reply to post by Annee


I'm afraid you are simply wrong in this assertion, human life begins at conception. The debate vis-a-vis abortion is when people introduce the concepts of viability and "personhood". About when human life begins there is no question.

Originally posted by Annee
Fact is - science & doctors are just as much at odds as when life starts as any other group of people.

Not so much, it's in the textbooks. Some scientists and doctors may disagree that it's okay to kill the baby, but we all can agree it was living and is now dead.

Young children often have difficulty characterizing things as living or nonliving. For example, they tend to describe anything that moves as alive. They also do not yet understand the cycle of life (birth, growth, death), and therefore classify as nonliving anything that has died. In science, living is used to describe anything that is or has ever been alive (dog, flower, seed, road kill, log); nonliving is used to describe anything that is not now nor has ever been alive (rock, mountain, glass, wristwatch). Over time, students will begin to understand that all living things grow, breathe, reproduce, excrete, respond to stimuli, and have similar basic needs like nourishment. Older students may even realize that all living things are made up of cells.

- www.teachersdomain.org...

Fifth grade science here. Live in your nebulous world of confusion if you like, but for the rest of us the definitions are clear.

[edit on 30-1-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Brian2384

If your ready or not to have a child, if it's just going to be in the way of a career, social life, etc. But what gets me is that men are not involved in this equation until monthly payments are wanted. Then all of a sudden their are two parties involved. Hey, where are my rights? Why don't I have access to birth control? Well, other than condoms.

If you think those are the only reasons for aborting you would be wrong. (yes I did see you added "etc"). There are more complicated reasons - such as mental illness - abusiveness - financial - living situations - divorce - a living child requiring full time attention. Its so easy for outsiders to make idealistic statements - when they have no idea the turmoil some go through in making this permanent choice.

As far as men go. Right or Wrong as a woman/mother/grandmother who understands what women have had to put up with from the beginning of time - I have very little concern or compassion for men when it comes to abortion.

Did you read my posts on government supported mandatory DNA testing for paternity? That's where men need to start.

Originally posted by Annee
If you think those are the only reasons for aborting you would be wrong. (yes I did see you added "etc"). There are more complicated reasons - such as mental illness - abusiveness - financial - living situations - divorce - a living child requiring full time attention. Its so easy for outsiders to make idealistic statements - when they have no idea the turmoil some go through in making this permanent choice.

Here we go then back to the side-issues on the question of abortion rather than dealing with the fundamental and only real question that it should involve: does anyone have the right to end another human life?

If you think they do then let's look at your list of subsidiary reasonings:
mental illness - may we euthanize the mentally ill to save them the trauma of their illness?
abusiveness - would you support the death penalty in dealing with the abusive?
financial - can we kill the poor to free them from their choiceless lives and save them the suffering that accompanies their poverty?
living situations - can parents kill another child that is perhaps five years old? A five year old costs more to keep than a baby and maybe by the time the new one is five they'll be better able to afford it.
Divorce - may we kill the party at fault to save all the expense of dividing the assets etc?
A living child requires full time attention - should working mothers raise their children while they have maternity leave and then kill them when its time to get back to work?

If your answer to any or all of these questions is "no" then please explain to me how you can justify the taking of another human life for these reasons through abortion?

As for the gender issue, allow me to speak up for the disproportionate numbers of female children aborted in less developed countries and in migrant cultures in the developed world. Or should that be a mother's choice too whether she wants a girl or a boy?

[edit on 30/1/09 by Supercertari]

Originally posted by Supercertari
reply to post by Annee

 

I'm afraid you are simply wrong in this assertion, human life begins at conception. The debate vis-a-vis abortion is when people introduce the concepts of viability and "personhood". About when human life begins there is no question.

No Supercertari - I'm not.

Science/professionals - - have never agreed when life begins.

If you are arguing from a god perspective - - as far as I'm concerned that is a non-argument with no basis in reality.

Originally posted by Annee
No Supercertari - I'm not.

Science/professionals - - have never agreed when life begins.

If you are arguing from a god perspective - - as far as I'm concerned that is a non-argument with no basis in reality.

No, I am arguing from the perspectives of biology, genetics and medicine which all have a basis in "reality" and all agree. Show me some of these disagreeing scientists/professionals who say human life does not begin at conception.

Originally posted by Supercertari
Show me some of these disagreeing scientists/professionals who say human life does not begin at conception.

I know of at least one scientist who agrees with the other scientists that human life begins at conception. Those sitting on the pro-abortion side of the table back in my college biology classes didn't dispute when life begins, rather who had to the right to decide whether or not it is born. They all had 5th grade science too.

[edit on 30-1-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
My documentation says:

"So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind." - Genesis 1:21

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." - Genesis 1:27

"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." - Revelation 4:11

"Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things." - Ephesians 3:8-9

You conveniently forgot this one, so let me remind you...

1 Samuel Chapter 15
15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Just using the same "documentation" here.

Value of any historical document is directly proportionate to amount of events it deals with mentioned in other documents throughout the world and scientific evidence which supports its claims.

I'll give you the biology of cell development. But that's only a physical growth.

Since I believe nothing exists but energy consciousness - physical is a creation - it has no bearing on my position.

Consciousness is what gives created biology life.

Energy consciousness is eternal.

Removal of biological cells has no bearing on eternal consciousness.

Originally posted by 5thElement
You conveniently forgot this one, so let me remind you...

I did not 'conveniently forget', we were talking about what God created. The following does not state anything about creation:

1 Samuel Chapter 15

Does it?

I encourage everyone to read the whole Book if they feel I've conveniently left anything out.

[edit on 30-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


I read the WHOLE book few times some 40 years ago (it was an interesting read then, today it would just plain boring).

Repetition of reading it is not gonna make the verses somehow magically change their meaning...

When God tells me to, I can slay man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass with no retribution of any kind (I guess it would be a double murder if any of the women were pregnant in that particular example). It can be easily approved by Almighty. Lots of room there to kill lil' embryos, don't you think ?

No hidden meaning there either.

Do you believe that that verse is not true ???

Well, "document" you are talking about here has many "gems" like this (no need to mention them here, that would be a whole another thread).

The point is, "document" filled with stuff like this (where you choose which is convenient or true in it for certain agenda) cannot be called historical or the Document (of any scientific value). Claiming that it's a (scientific) document does not make it so.

Therefore, Genesis, as integral part of that "document" is questionable the SAME as many others are

Originally posted by 5thElement
I read the WHOLE book few times some 40 years ago (it was an interesting read then, today it would just plain boring).

Ah, so you already know the answers to these questions then and prefer mere antagonism. Okay, well, good exercise for me anyway.

Originally posted by 5thElement
Repetition of reading it is not gonna make the verses somehow magically change their meaning...

Perhaps you'd be surprised how many nuisances and details that can be gained through close examination and application.

Originally posted by 5thElement
Lots of room there to kill lil' embryos, don't you think ?

Nope. But having read the Book a few times decades ago you already know this, right?

Originally posted by 5thElement
Do you believe that that verse is not true ???

I see nothing incorrect with the verses.

Originally posted by 5thElement
The point is, "document" filled with stuff like this (where you choose which is convenient or true in it for certain agenda) cannot be called historical or the Document (of any scientific value).

It is indeed both historical and documentation, meeting the requirements thereof.

Originally posted by 5thElement
Claiming that it's a (scientific) document does not make it so.

Where did I say scientific?

Originally posted by 5thElement
Therefore, Genesis, as integral part of that "document" is questionable the SAME as many others are

Question every document, hold on to what is true.

[edit on 30-1-2009 by saint4God]