Vatican attacks US abortion move

No laws or government decisions should be based on any religious belief - period! (Yes I know there are some Atheists who are Pro-Life - but primarily its about religious belief)

The only responsible decision/choice for anyone who has an unplanned pregnancy and is not ready (whatever the reason) is to abort it.

Originally posted by 5thElement
So, you are saying that if one day science creates LIFE (Artificial Intelligence, for example) that it has right to take it away ???

Why not answer my questions first? Fine fine, although it's unfair I'll answer yours first. The determinant factor would be the soul. If it has a soul and we did not place it there that would cause a problem with removing artificial intelligence. As I understand it, if you do not program a droid with the desire for survival, it will not feel it. All currently realm of the sci-fi so would rather work with reality first.

Originally posted by 5thElement
What's up with children already born ?

Nobody asks them anything, if there is a dangerous surgery to be performed nobody asks the kid, parent has a supreme authority. In that case government cannot do anything.

I'm not sure what you're saying here unless you'd prefer this decisioning process to happen some other way.

Originally posted by 5thElement
Yep, if you are unborn, you should be protected, as soon as you are born, well, screw you, till you reach military age, of course, then, suddenly you are important again

Life should be protected at any age.

Originally posted by Annee
The only responsible decision/choice for anyone who has an unplanned pregnancy and is not ready (whatever the reason) is to abort it.

Ah, judge, jury AND executioner. Bravo to your self-appointed position and am stunned that someone with such wisdom would bother with the trifflings of us mere unworthy ATS'ers.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Annee
The only responsible decision/choice for anyone who has an unplanned pregnancy and is not ready (whatever the reason) is to abort it.

Ah, judge, jury AND executioner. Bravo to your self-appointed position and am stunned that someone with such wisdom would bother with the trifflings of us mere unworthy ATS'ers.

Oh - 'cuse - - plain logic vs mystical omnipotent being.

Earth is a living thing - like all living things it thrives best in good health - not being overloaded by non-caring parasites - my thoughts are logic in reality.

Originally posted by Annee
Oh - 'cuse - - plain logic

More accurately your 'reasoning'/opinion.

Originally posted by Annee
vs mystical omnipotent being.

One need not God to know killing is wrong.

Originally posted by Annee
Earth is a living thing

Earth has living things on it and growing in it, but the rock and air and water that make up the earth are not living according to science.

Originally posted by Annee
- like all living things it thrives best in good health - not being overloaded by non-caring parasites -

Babies are non-caring parasites? Really?

Originally posted by Annee
my thoughts are logic in reality.

Keep telling yourself that one, it doesn't sound like you're convinced.

[edit on 29-1-2009 by saint4God]

Physical is a creation of thought. The energy consciousness is eternal.

Physical is not "alive" without the energy consciousness.

If the energy consciousness chooses to have a physical experience - it has millions of options. Its just a blip in virtual time for it to choose a different host.

I intentionally use simplistic verbiage.

When one starts pointing out particulars in verbiage - it usually indicates they are running out of positions of argument.

Originally posted by Annee
I intentionally use simplistic verbiage.

Thank you your royal highness. Do you need the address to the university that gave me my degree so that you can write them a letter? You seem to think they've made some kind of mistake.

Originally posted by Annee
When one starts pointing out particulars in verbiage - it usually indicates they are running out of positions of argument.

I have many arguments to your claims (see above). I've noticed your disinterest in addressing any of the points I've made, so I don't think it's me who is running out of points to speak upon.

[edit on 29-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by Mdv2


reply to post by Mdv2


Has anyone read Freakonomics (Hubner and Levitt) and the few pages on abortion? It relates...massively. It states that legalising abortion is a way of controlling the populace and is known to limit crime in the future (as a mother is the best judge when decding if she can provide for a child). Unwanted pregnancies, growing up to become children, living more often than not in a broken homes, then reaching adulthood are proven to be more susceptible to crime.
How this links wiht my finding are as follows :
During a the lead up to war, it is known that countries deploy measures encouraging the populace to indulge in more sexual activity, therefore leading to more babies i.e "the baby boom"
With America now legalising abortion it paves the way for women and men to put right their "mistake" for whatever reason.
The government/media etc encourage sexual activity/more babies throughout society, (aformentioned plans...war) which will without doubt lead to more sex and after a few tests, more unwanted pregnancies.
Now after all, its the mothers that bear the responsibility and are in a suitable position to understand what it takes to bring up a child. So what i'm saying is...america is seeking to entice sex/leading to more pregnancies due to an impending war/some of these pregnancies will be unwanted/therefore america has re-instated abortion rights/a good vetting system for unwanted babies/potentially reducing crime in the future.

Its a bit scatty, but i hope what i've written makes sense!!!

Has anyone read Freakonomics (Hubner and Levitt) and the few pages on abortion? It relates...massively. It states that legalising abortion is a way of controlling the populace and is known to limit crime in the future (as a mother is the best judge when deciding if she can provide for a child). Unwanted pregnancies, growing up to become children, living more often than not in a broken homes, then reaching adulthood are proven to be more susceptible to crime.
How this links with my finding are as follows :
During a the lead up to war, it is known that countries deploy measures encouraging the populace to indulge in more sexual activity, therefore leading to more babies i.e "the baby boom"
With America now legalising abortion it paves the way for women and men to put right their "mistake" for whatever reason.
The government/media etc encourage sexual activity/more babies throughout society, (aforementioned plans...war) which will without doubt lead to more sex and after a few tests, more unwanted pregnancies.
Now after all, its the mothers that bear the responsibility and are in a suitable position to understand what it takes to bring up a child. So what i'm saying is...America is seeking to entice sex/leading to more pregnancies due to an impending war/some of these pregnancies will be unwanted/therefore America has re-instated abortion rights/a good vetting system for unwanted babies/potentially reducing crime in the future.

Its a bit scatty, but i hope what i've written makes sense to some!!!

Saint,
According to your book, your god only created 2 people.

And if you think he created the subsequent people, why would he create them and then kill them in the most heinous manner? Dashing babies on the rocks is OK with you? Do you think maybe he was doing some population control?

The Aztecs are said to have sacrificed 5000 children a year to their gods. That was obviously for population control. In fact cultures all over the world did similar sacrifices to their gods. How do you suppose this practice got started?

Originally posted by OhZone
Saint,
According to your book, your god only created 2 people.

Not so much, but a good try. ^_^ We could have gone into a discussion about why this isn't the case if you'd asked a question instead of making an incorrect statement.

Originally posted by OhZone
And if you think he created the subsequent people, why would he create them and then kill them in the most heinous manner?

The answer is just past the part you've missed in you first statement.

Originally posted by OhZone
Dashing babies on the rocks is OK with you?

No, do you think He doesn't care about the beings he'd made? We're still in Genesis at this point, there's a whole lot more of the Book to go.

Originally posted by OhZone
Do you think maybe he was doing some population control?

No, don't you think if it were about popluation control He'd be doing something now in the overcrowded parts of the world?

Originally posted by OhZone
The Aztecs are said to have sacrificed 5000 children a year to their gods. That was obviously for population control.

Ah yes, the great census studies of the Aztecs to determine global population capacity versus resource providence.

Originally posted by OhZone
In fact cultures all over the world did similar sacrifices to their gods. How do you suppose this practice got started?

God is against sacrificing children to Him or anyone else: " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD." - Leviticus 18:21

[edit on 29-1-2009 by saint4God]

Just a tidbit for everyone to consider...

Considering how it happened before, they are probably a bit concerned that abortion could end the beginning of the "second coming"...ya know? Not that I subscribe to those notions, but, I guess at some level I can understand that a threat to the rebirth of your God may worry some people...from their stand-point.

Originally posted by steorn
Has anyone read Freakonomics

I read Freakonomics a few years ago. Great book.

I do not accept God as a legitimate argument.

I do not accept God as a legitimate legal reason to deny individual rights for anything.

As far as I'm concerned religiosity is mass mind control. While Spirituality is understanding thought creates.

If you want to believe in a god - fine - do it. Just don't force it on me and my rights - or my government

Originally posted by steorn
How this links with my finding are as follows :
During a the lead up to war, it is known that countries deploy measures encouraging the populace to indulge in more sexual activity, therefore leading to more babies i.e "the baby boom"

I have to point out the the "baby boom" occurred after World War II, when the soldiers returned home to a newly prosperous country.

There was actually a bit of a lag in reproduction in the 1930s, probably because of the Depression.

reply to post by Annee


I couldn't agree more, Annee.

reply to post by saint4God


Sorry for not answering your questions.

Q: How many God has created ?

A: ZERO

I think this answers about all of them

The issue of Abortion is a matter of opinion. The law does NOT say that Abortion is "Moral" or "Ethical" it simply says "Legal." The Vatican is allowed to express their opinion on the matter.

But look, We are so close to no longer being a free country right now as it is, I don't think we need to Ban Abortion as well.

Learn to accept that there are some things people won't agree with. I don't like the idea of allowing civilian personnel to buy Assault Rifles, but that's legal now.

The human race needs to grow up and agree to disagree like civilized adults and stop judging each other on the basis of opinion. Peoples opinions put us in the Iraq War, started the Crusades, caused the Holocaust, and the Salem Witch Trials. Just remember that.

The fact is it is a moral gray area, and that is why it is an opinion instead of a fact. You can't really have the opinion that the Earth is flat or that the sky is orange. Those are facts.

Just be glad Third Trimester abortions aren't legal... and stop being so God damned judgemental. Thanks.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by steorn
Has anyone read Freakonomics

I read Freakonomics a few years ago. Great book.

I do not accept God as a legitimate argument.

I do not accept God as a legitimate legal reason to deny individual rights for anything.

As far as I'm concerned religiosity is mass mind control. While Spirituality is understanding thought creates.

If you want to believe in a god - fine - do it. Just don't force it on me and my rights - or my government

Your last line pretty much sums it up. Abortion is not really about incest, rape, or unplanned pregnancy (That's where birth control comes in). It's about convenience. If your ready or not to have a child, if it's just going to be in the way of a career, social life, etc. But what gets me is that men are not involved in this equation untill monthly payments are wanted. Then all of a sudden their are two parties involved. Hey, where are my rights? Why don't I have access to birth control? Well, other than condoms.

That being the self centered part of my post, I do feel that abortion is the snuffing out of a life. Even if it is not a human yet it certainly would have been.

reply to post by Brian2384


Not necessarily:

About 15 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage

Link: Understanding Miscarriages

So about 129,000,000 babies are born a year:
Link

So... if theoretically more children were to be born but miscarried, than 15 - 20 % of those babies die:

So God aborts 19,000,000 - 26,000,000 babies each year?

Sure, the excuse is: "He had a reason," but look, the truth is this: it has nothing to do with God. God simply created life to see what would happen. There is no complex "divine plan."

Humans were put on Earth to exist... nothing more, nothing less. Whether it be by some unnatural force or nature, we are here and we should learn to exist.

[edit on 30-1-2009 by Zenic]

When human life begins is NOT a grey area. Here's what science says:

Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc

The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote
Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins

Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life
Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company

The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.
Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins

Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote
Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company

Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual
Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996

Abortion advocates engaging in the argument of when a human life begins are the ones engaging in discussion concerning a fantasy and justify their claims with the sophistry of "personhood".

As a religious person I am not engaged in any discussion of the spiritual or soul or such when I oppose abortion I am refering to the explicit and undeniable fact that human life begins at conception.