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Vatican attacks US abortion move

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posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
There is no theirs - - unless both agree and take responsibility - legally by court of law.


Genetically there is (see my response below about legal responsibilities if the baby is declared property). Would you like the address to the university that gave me my biology degree? Surely they must be in err. Also may need to notify the sources I've quoted and a few thousand college libraries while you're at it.


Originally posted by Annee
You want to step in and have government legislate a woman's birth right.


No, I want people to not deny a baby of his/her right. To crutch on the government to dictate reason and constant constitutional clarification is absurd.


Originally posted by Annee
NO way - - you want THEIRS.


This is the only correct part of this segment.


Originally posted by Annee
Then government can first step in and make DNA Paternity testing mandatory - - for all those children already here and walking around.


Why would they do that?

[edit on 27-1-2009 by saint4God]




posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
Yes, the whole baby belongs to them both. AFTER it is born. Before it is born the baby is the sole property of the mother because it is growing in one of her organs. There's no way around that. No one can tell anyone what to do with anything that's growing inside them.


If you want to say that the baby is property then legally half of that property belongs to the father. Half of those chromosomes, half of that DNA belongs to the father. Biologically, genetically it is a composite of both the mother and father. Please clicky that link I posted and read the details if there is doubt.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
[edit on 27-1-2009 by saint4God]


Your belief vs my belief????

I believe in an energy consciousness that is separate from physical.

The energy consciousness is eternal. Physical is a temporary created experience.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
I believe in an energy consciousness that is separate from physical.


Saying you're out of your mind is an excellent excuse though it is no substitute for legal rights or biological facts. Currently we're not discussing beliefs, rather biology and legality.

[edit on 27-1-2009 by saint4God]



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


I agree with you here Annee. We share a common belief here. That being said, I'm not coming in here to argue with this guy anymore. He argues the same points over and over again and there's no use trying to make any sense of it all. There's a difference of opinion that's never going to go away.

Either way the Vatican really shouldn't be telling people how to run their lives.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God


Originally posted by Annee
Then government can first step in and make DNA Paternity testing mandatory - - for all those children already here and walking around.


Why would they do that?

[edit on 27-1-2009 by saint4God]


You come across to me as being male. (I changed this because I didn't like how it felt)

The fact you don't understand the above - - ends any further discussion.

There is no point.

[edit on 27-1-2009 by Annee]



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
You are obviously a man.


What a very judgemental thing to think and say. I'm surprised there isn't a filter between the two. Although you have a 50/50 chance I will not disclose my gender as it is irrelevant to the discussion...but I guess if you cannot argue biology or law, that's the last resort as a retort, isn't it?

[edit on 27-1-2009 by saint4God]



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 02:24 PM
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I think it's pretty funny how long this argument has been going on considering we supposedly live in a free world.

The way I see it, if you have a problem with it, then don't do it.
But enforcing your views an opinions on others who see otherwise simply isn't the answer.

If you don't like the idea of an abortion, then don't get one.

It's that easy.

[edit on 27-1-2009 by johnsky]



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
Either way the Vatican really shouldn't be telling people how to run their lives.


Unless, of course, you happen to be Catholic.

And since Roman Catholicism is America's largest religious denomination, with close to 80 million adherents, I'd say the Vatican feels it has the right to address that particular audience.

If you don't like what the Vatican has to say, then don't listen. It's not like they are knocking on your door.

Personally, I believe there are a lot more important things to be worrying about in the world today.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 04:30 PM
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I'll reply to this being that I'm Catholic.

Why condemn the Vatican officials for speaking out against what they feel is wrong? You hypocritical morons wouldn't have said the same things if it was a political leader who said what this man said.

Also abortion is wrong. It's taking the life of an unborn child against God's will. It's murder in every aspect. The only person it benefits is the parents until they realize what they've done and even they know they've murdered their own child.

So everyone commenting this saying that Catholics are evil child molesters needs to stop talking. You all deserve what's coming to you if you keep persecuting the words of the Catholic Church just because you think it's funny or something. What Obama is doing is sin a against unborn life.

God Bless.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 04:40 PM
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reply to post by jdaleduvall
 


I didn't say that the Catholics couldn't voice their opinion. By all means. Have all the opinion you like. If you think it's a sin. You're welcome to think that. I don't care. I just have a different opinion. However: Just because you have a different opinion doesn't mean that you can go around and FORCE me to abide by your opinion by making up a law.

Obama's giving everyone the chance to decide for themselves.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 05:03 PM
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Wait - let's get this straight. Having a belief or an opinion is not the problem. Catholics talking to Catholics is not the problem.

The Vatican has crossed into politics - - American politics.

". . . . senior Vatican official Monsignor Rino Fisichella urged Mr Obama to listen to all voices in America without "the arrogance of those who, being in power, believe they can decide of life and death."

"If this is one of President Obama's first acts, I have to say, in all due respect, that we're heading quickly toward disappointment," Mr Fisichella, who heads the Vatican's Pontifical Academy for Life, told the Corriere della Sera."



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by jdaleduvall

Also abortion is wrong. It's taking the life of an unborn child against God's will. It's murder in every aspect. The only person it benefits is the parents until they realize what they've done and even they know they've murdered their own child.



That is YOUR belief. Even the Vatican official says listen to ALL voices.

I do not agree with your belief. What I believe is just as valid as your belief.

Suppose America adopted the One child law - and forced abortions. Suppose law forced you to have an abortion.

Same thing as denying my Right to Choose.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
I didn't say that the Catholics couldn't voice their opinion. By all means. Have all the opinion you like. If you think it's a sin. You're welcome to think that. I don't care. I just have a different opinion. However: Just because you have a different opinion doesn't mean that you can go around and FORCE me to abide by your opinion by making up a law.

Obama's giving everyone the chance to decide for themselves.


Would you provide the IRS link where tax-payers can decide for themselves whether to opt out of funding this or not?



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
The Vatican has crossed into politics - - American politics.


Let's just hope America never crosses into any other country's politics. Oh, hang on, too late.

Now they are going to do a bit more "crossing into" by funding organisations which lobby foreign governments to liberalize their abortion laws.



posted on Jan, 27 2009 @ 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by Supercertari

Originally posted by Annee
The Vatican has crossed into politics - - American politics.


Let's just hope America never crosses into any other country's politics. Oh, hang on, too late.

Now they are going to do a bit more "crossing into" by funding organisations which lobby foreign governments to liberalize their abortion laws.


Those Women's clinics do far more then offer abortion. They teach how to use condoms and in some places offer birth control. They teach health care & the importance of cleanliness to women who have not had any other means to education. The offer counseling and childcare education.

The USA does not legalize abortions in other countries. That's up to each individual country.

As a woman - a grandmother - and mother of two daughters - - I understand the importance of educating women around the world - to ALL areas of need. And offering other options.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 12:31 AM
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reply to post by Victoria 1
 



People need to think before they type.


You need to learn how to read data. Clearly you know nothing about the system or adoption taking place in the US. Spare me your race ranting, learn before you type.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 12:52 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

No, I want people to not deny a baby of his/her right. To crutch on the government to dictate reason and constant constitutional clarification is absurd.



Constant constitutional clarification is hardly needed, since Roe v. Wade made the constitutionality of the abortion debate clear what, 30 years ago now?


As far as the issue of this thread goes, the biggest problem is that when you refuse to support any clinic in a foreign country that performs or discusses abortion as an option, you are also failing to support those clinics in the work that they do to stop unwanted pregnancies before they occur.

If the U.S. makes aid to clinics in third world countries contingent on their refusal to provide any information about abortion, we are trying to effect a situation in those countries – an absence of abortion rights – which would be unconstitutional in our own country.

Yes, we do this in a number of other areas too. It's one of our ugliest traits as a superpower. That doesn't mean it's okay here.

P.S. – this is a recent obsession of mine. For strict anti-abortion posters: what is your position on in vitro fertilization?

[edit on 1/28/09 by americandingbat]



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 06:55 AM
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Originally posted by americandingbat
P.S. – this is a recent obsession of mine. For strict anti-abortion posters: what is your position on in vitro fertilization?
[edit on 1/28/09 by americandingbat]


IVF, and I'll throw in contraception too, are immoral and intinsically evil. They deform the sexual act and divide its procrative and loving elements denuding both of their full signifigance.

Government funding of any of these programs is social engineering and when a prosperous country funds abortion and contraception overseas they are stiffling future competition. Pelosi et al are now applying similar principles to the national economy of the US with contraceptive funding being part of the current bailout. Keep the poor poor and few, too many of them and they might have the means to become rich.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by Supercertari
Keep the poor poor and few, too many of them and they might have the means to become rich.


That is absolutely ridiculous. Contraceptives are evil now too? You know, sex is not ONLY for creating children. I also find it sad that you would rather there be a surplus of children being born in awful, degenerative situations and having to live under horrible circumstances just because you think contraceptives are some evil conspiracy.

Saying that "too many" poor people might have the means to get rich is short sighted. An excess of poor people is just that...and excess of poor people. These people don't have the means to get rich especially if you multiply them by some odd amount. Doing that just overloads the areas where people can buy cheap housing.




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