Is free will a paradox or superposition?

reply to post by majestictwo


ok you say free will is interrupted by the fact that the pub burned down, but really this argument makes no sense

free will does not mean you can do anything you want, it is still limited by the physical bounds of our existence

therefore if the pub is burned down it is no longer in existence, so going there is an impossible feat, and that cannot disrupt freewill because freewill does not promise the impossible

its like saying, i want to go to the sun but space is preventing me and there fore i have no freewill

freewill is about choice of available options, the pub no longer became an available option therefore was out of the influence of freewill

now im not saying we do have freewill i was just criticizing the argument

an example of a determent of freewill are laws, for example police can physically stop me from commiting a murder,

murder is something achievable within the freewill options, the fact that i can be stopped from doing it doesnt take it away from the options because it is still possible to do, and if it is still possible to do and is in the options but i am being deterred from it by force (or whatever other methods) then it is an infringement on freewill

A totalitarian state would do this, use force to oppose your freewill, while a democracy seeks to make you see less choices in your freewill options through subtle and indirect threat

so the idea of cause and effect creating a paradox with freewill is not so IMO, but i think cause and effect play a large role in limiting our options and creating new ones

the pub is burned down, now you must find a new pub, in which you can meet new people, explore a new area, etc.

its like they say, "the paths are laid out for us, we just have to choose which ones to walk on."

reply to post by Wertdagf


...mmmmmm....yeah. i already knew you were a champion of the nassim haramein videos. yes, i have actually taken 8 hours of my life and watched them from start to finish. and, yes, i find his ideas fascinating and compelling.

simply because you agree with what mr. haramein is talking about, does not mean that you understand it. stop parroting him and figure it out for yourself. ONLY then will you have earned the condescending tone you have been using.

...heh, next your going to tell me that consciousness doesn't exist, right? (or didnt you know that that is the logical conclusion of your arguments?)

lucky for us, consciousness is the one thing that doesnt require proof: it just is.

P.S. (psssst..."why" is the only thing that really matters.)

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


fruit fly experiment proves nothing.


thread closed.

reply to post by majestictwo


please explain how cause and effect would not come into play.

the scenario you're suggesting is impossible...EVERYTHING is cause and effect.

reply to post by Wachstum


you intro to philosophy was a complete waste of time and money.
You're post does not explain how fee will could exist...it simply says...hell it's possible...

It looks like you're new to ATS, better lurk a little while longer before you start posting, I can see you getting torn to shreds here, noob.

Originally posted by tgidkp
reply to post by Wertdagf

 

...mmmmmm....yeah. i already knew you were a champion of the nassim haramein videos. yes, i have actually taken 8 hours of my life and watched them from start to finish. and, yes, i find his ideas fascinating and compelling.

simply because you agree with what mr. haramein is talking about, does not mean that you understand it. stop parroting him and figure it out for yourself. ONLY then will you have earned the condescending tone you have been using.

...heh, next your going to tell me that consciousness doesn't exist, right? (or didnt you know that that is the logical conclusion of your arguments?)

lucky for us, consciousness is the one thing that doesnt require proof: it just is.

P.S. (psssst..."why" is the only thing that really matters.)

You assume i havent? why? you made me laugh.

Im telling you that it would imply conciousness is a natural side effect of the division of reality. That life is created through the design of infinty just like bubbles are made at a waterfall. Where free will is only a limited perspective.

What i cannot assume is how this relates to what happens before or after life. I hope for an afterlife with ponys and gumdrop rain, but there is nothing i can say is fact about it without being a liar.



[edit on 25-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

Originally posted by Wertdagf
You assume i havent? why?

...because you made yourself sound like a right fool in your previous post.

...conciousness is a natural side effect of the division of reality.

nice try. unfortunately, what nassim is really getting at is just the opposite of what you just said:

reality is a natural side effect of the division of consciousness.

...which means that conciousness, and ultimately free will are prima facie. you are at least proving your point that SOME of us behave deterministically.


cheers.

Originally posted by tgidkp

Originally posted by Wertdagf
You assume i havent? why?

...because you made yourself sound like a right fool in your previous post.

...conciousness is a natural side effect of the division of reality.

nice try. unfortunately, what nassim is really getting at is just the opposite of what you just said:

reality is a natural side effect of the division of consciousness.

...which means that conciousness, and ultimately free will are prima facie. you are at least proving your point that SOME of us behave deterministically.


cheers.

can you quote what it was that was so foolish for me?

We have no proof either way. Just because nassim found somthing profound about physics does not mean his religious beliefs are infallible. To assume that is ignorant.

Your instead saying that in this infinte fractal conciousness creates reality... In a fractal there is no chicken and egg dilema. They are all infinitly connected through casuality.

It all depends at what level you want to apply free will. Yes there is a level where you are forced to do things to survive. A person needs to eat, so then that is not freewill, nor is the actions that person is required to do to provide the food.

Once you get pass basic survival needs we enter into a more freedom of thought, and so we have a freedom of choice in our goals even though the actions required to reach those goals are not.

Until we can instantly achieve our will at the instant moment of thought one could say we do not have freedom of will for there will be restraints in the actions that are available to us to fulfill our choices.

But we do have a freedom of choice anyway you look at it, and on a grand scale of a life time it is freewill in how your life plays out based on the choices you make throughout your life. So can freewill be achieved with physical actions? No, but it can be fulfilled by thought in our life choices.


[edit on 25-1-2009 by Xtrozero]

Not bothering to read all the posts here. Sorry if this is a repetition of previously posted viewpoint(s).

All truth is paradox. Once you accept this truth, life is infinitely less complicated.

Yes we have free will but we have to do the right things in our lives. The "right thing" is different for each person. This is why judgment, criticism and punishment - and likewise their opposites - are utter wastes of time. Live life for pure experience. Follow your heart/soul/dreams/signs and you will be fine even if it seems like your life has gone completely off the tracks-

Ah, paradox! That's the stuff!

If you don't get it, keep thinking about it. It will come to you eventually.

God, I hope so anyway...

reply to post by CosmicEgg


Does this apply to child molesters?
I would find somthing wrong with that if it did.

reply to post by Wertdagf


That's exactly the point. You are here to experience, pure and simply. Yours is not to judge nor to be judged. Please try to see the paradox in all situations. Read a good deal of Eastern Spirituality. Did you know that as cosmologists and other physicists discover "new" things about the workings of universal physics, they have realised that they are nearing the philosophical and scientific writings of the Eastern ancients?

It's time for people to stop living in the intolerance and harshness of the past age. We don't have to be that way. Live, experience, love with the purity of the Creator's intent.

reply to post by tankthinker

ok you say free will is interrupted by the fact that the pub burned down, but really this argument makes no sense free will does not mean you can do anything you want, it is still limited by the physical bounds of our existence..

Yes I accept this there are indeed many interactions to a decision. In some cases there would appear to more than others – its variable.

therefore if the pub is burned down it is no longer in existence, so going there is an impossible feat, and that cannot disrupt freewill because freewill does not promise the impossible

So are you saying free will exists only in the moment of the decision? If the pub then burns down the action of getting there is interrupted but the free will decision to go there is actually still intact. That is free will exists.

A strong argument indeed



[edit on 26-1-2009 by majestictwo]

free will is a paradox to answer the OP - if you look through ATS and find the many many other threads that talk about this you will find some intersting insight.

Free will can't be proven true but does exist, because in order to prove your decision is not a first cause it would have to literally be random without any true order or valid explanation. If you can understand why a decision is made, or just provide an explanation in terms of casuality, you will prove free-will false every time. The reason it is a paradox is because you cannot prove why a decision is made prior to it happening. you can provide an explanation it terms of why a decision will be made, but you cannot prove what will cause the decision until after it has happened.

Truth does not work in terms of prediction, but in observation after the fact. 1+1=2 is true only until you provide the #2. basically free will is our problem, where the equation is constantly changing, and the answer can only be found when we stop time, aka observe the action to prove the cause. So, Free will does exist, because the future is currently undetermined and unpredictable, but you can prove it false because truth lies in observation after the fact, but if the statement - free will does not exist, was true, we could predict the future, which currently we cannot, we can only accuratly predict the probability of any action, which leaves free-will contradicting or paradoxal.

If someone could elaborate or challenge what I said I would appreciate it.

Originally posted by juveous
free will is a paradox to answer the OP - if you look through ATS and find the many many other threads that talk about this you will find some intersting insight.

Free will can't be proven true but does exist, because in order to prove your decision is not a first cause it would have to literally be random without any true order or valid explanation. If you can understand why a decision is made, or just provide an explanation in terms of casuality, you will prove free-will false every time. The reason it is a paradox is because you cannot prove why a decision is made prior to it happening. you can provide an explanation it terms of why a decision will be made, but you cannot prove what will cause the decision until after it has happened.

Truth does not work in terms of prediction, but in observation after the fact. 1+1=2 is true only until you provide the #2. basically free will is our problem, where the equation is constantly changing, and the answer can only be found when we stop time, aka observe the action to prove the cause. So, Free will does exist, because the future is currently undetermined and unpredictable, but you can prove it false because truth lies in observation after the fact, but

if the statement - free will does not exist, was true, we could predict the future, which currently we cannot, we can only accuratly predict the probability of any action, which leaves free-will contradicting or paradoxal.

If someone could elaborate or challenge what I said I would appreciate it.

That almost the same question as "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?"

I believe it does.. becasue i know physics and i know trees. Just because no one is aroudn to hear it, just like somone who is only veiwing from an individiaul perspective, Does not mean that free will exists or that the tree does not make a sound. I know enough about the people around me to predict their thoughts and emotions.... my information is still limited so it is not perfect. I can predict my emotions and decisions becasue i know myself and see how i my mind was formed through causality.

Quantum physics has the theory that particales pop in and out of existance its the only thing that gives "free will" a "pass go" card.
But i believe we are in a fractal and that atoms(singularitys) can move up and down in size depending upon the amount of energy contained on their event horizon.

Anywhoooo... as a baby do you really have free will? There have been so many variables that have gone into the massive beaultiful structure that you are... but to say because you cant comprehend how it all came together to form you means that you are a free magical quantum butterfly is misguided.

make sure your thoughts are free of a desire to be "free" or of a "soul" or of a "god".. if you cannot keep these things out of your thought processes they will always be flawed.

Originally posted by majestictwo

So are you saying free will exists only in the moment of the decision? If the pub then burns down the action of getting there is interrupted but the free will decision to go there is actually still intact. That is free will exists.

A strong argument indeed

[edit on 26-1-2009 by majestictwo]

the free will decision to go there is not intact, this is because it is no longer possible to go there, you can go to were it once was, its remains but you cannot do something with free will that is beyond our physical limitations

and free will is in the moment of the decision because that is when you decide to exercise you freewill, to change it you must go through another decision process, therefore you can only have freewill with a decision making process

reply to post by tankthinker

the free will decision to go there is not intact, this is because it is no longer possible to go there, you can go to were it once was, its remains but you cannot do something with free will that is beyond our physical limitations and free will is in the moment of the decision because that is when you decide to exercise you freewill, to change it you must go through another decision process, therefore you can only have freewill with a decision making process.

Yes I am happy with this argument.

It depends on an individual’s interpretation of when free will is initially executed, for me it’s that moment when you decide something. If after that decision we are stopped from doing the action then it’s the action that is interrupted not that free will moment. The result of the interrupted action would be disappointment. Disappointment that the free will cannot be auctioned however the free will moment was achieved.

Here’s another thought if at an instant before the free will decision is made is it a superposition a point of yes I’ll go to the pub or no I can’t be bothered. Then as a argument a beer ad comes on TV that triggers you to decide yes I’ll go to the pub. Then cause and effect has occurred but only in a sense that the superposition is tipped slightly – It remains free will dos it not?

Free will is not a paradox. Free will is a function of consciousness. Consciousness has no logical explanation. You can not explain it logically. Consciousness comes from God. This is why they say god can not be explained. Because you can not explain consciousness.

God is said to be all knowing. To be all knowing means that everything which is possible is known. Funny enough, for free will to be possible, a requirement is that all possibilities must exist. Part of free will is obviously the ability to give away.

Do all possibilities exist? Quantum physics is hinting to yes. A basic requirement of free will is meet. If you want to understand this part deeper, I've written a post on it before. I'll assume you've heard of flatland and other basic theories.

If you are all knowing, then it is like taking a movie film and stretching it out, and viewing the entire movie film at once. There is no time in your movie film, it's just static. No movement, no change, no time. This is the eyes of the father.

Only when you take on a limited perception, and view the movie frame by frame do you get the illusions of time, change and movement. As each frame goes to the next, you have then created time. In movies and programs, it's called run time. Film has no time all stretched on, but maybe an hour and half when viewed by the frames in run time.

If reality is a single time line, as it appears to us. Then there is no free will. You are subject to whatever is played on the movie. Just as you have no will in any movie you watch on TV. No choice, no influence, nothing. You are stuck with the movie the way it is, your only choice is to turn it off or on.

If you understand flatland(www.youtube.com...), then you understand what other dimensions are physically. This means instead of a single film, there are multiple films stacked on top of each other. Each film like the one next to it, only a small change. Just as 8 is next to 9, only a small change(1 number). The nearest stacked "films" or "dimensions" make up 4d, those stack to make up 5d and so on. The quantum "wave" is really just the next possibilities or "film".

So what determines your path across this film are your choices. But not directly in that you can't just say you want something and have it. You will have to move. You actually change dimensions every second, or every tick of time. It is only our perception of time that makes it appear linear. It appears to be a single film because that is what our perception has given us. All we know is the path we have taken thus far.

We can see part of 4d now. Because we always take the nearest dimension, if you take a look at "time", then you can see 4d. Walk across the room, instead of seeing just 1 of you, imagine you are in every place you just walked at once. That is partially seeing in 4d. To see in all of 4d, you would have seen those, plus all the nearest possibilities you could have taken.

Right now in your future there are 2 possible dimensions. In 1 dimension you are sitting in a jail cell. In another dimension you are not. The question is, how do you get to either of these dimensions? Choice. If you go out and rob a bank tomorrow, then you will likely find yourself in the dimension where you are sitting in jail. If you don't, then of course you won't go into that dimension. Right now, you can go into a dimension where you raise your right arm, or your left arm, or not at all.

If you want to get to the dimension where you are drinking something out of the fridge, then you need to find the path to the fridge and then walk the path to the fridge. These dimensions are your choices. Your possibilities and probabilities.

You reap what you sow, or for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you do sow bad things, and make bad actions, then you will get that returned to you. You will take paths into dimensions where things are not good for you and so on. Go make a bad choice and get hooked on something like meth, see where it leads you. Most people in this world try to "fix" things by forcing their views on others, and they fail to reailze the actions they are putting out. They think they are doing good things when they aren't. And same result from the bad choice. And we can see where this leads. Even if you don't get the dimensions stuff, you can see where bad choices lead to bad places.

So if you want to get to better places and "dimensions", then you have to be the change you want to see.

It is all a choice. Mostly the people who make those bad decisions that lead to bad places do so out of fear.

Believe it or not is your choice, your free will.

reply to post by badmedia


Such a lengthy post Badmedia worth it though.

This part

So what determines your path across this film are your choices. But not directly in that you can't just say you want something and have it. You will have to move. You actually change dimensions every second, or every tick of time. It is only our perception of time that makes it appear linear. It appears to be a single film because that is what our perception has given us. All we know is the path we have taken thus far.

I have understood for years I mean years and warrants separate discussion. I didn’t learn it from the internet or books it just came to me don't know how.

Reply with comments and our link to the post you have

Thanks for posting.

Originally posted by majestictwo
I have understood for years I mean years and warrants separate discussion. I didn’t learn it from the internet or books it just came to me don't know how.

Reply with comments and our link to the post you have

Thanks for posting.

Yeah, I didn't learn it from those things either. Most of what I learned came from understanding the difference in consciousness and creation/universe. But trying not to get too religious here.

Here are the 2 posts I mentioned before. I actually ended up repeating a good bit of it.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...