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IF there was no GOD ??????

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posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

lol

im not sure what to say lol


Don't say anything, ignore me haha.

But Converge sure had things to say thou, lol.

Hi Converge, no, god creates negative and positive things. Fire makes us warm and cooks food, but it also causes death and destruction. It seems that the universe is created like this for a reason. If god exists and has a plan then earth is like this for a reason.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by _Phoenix_]




posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
thats not necessarily true.


Oh, I don't believe it's true either, but that's because I don't think god created man



the knife is a very useful tool. but if used incorrectly, it can result in injury or even death. does this mean that the inventor of the knife is responsible for its misuse?


I completely agree with your perspective, and share it. I believe there's also a similar quote regarding the power of the pen, it can be used for good and bad, depends on one's intentions and how he uses it.



if (i say if because i respect that you may be an atheist)


I am an atheist, and you don't have to bend words in order to 'respect' me or my opinion
By discussing and sharing your opinion with me, politely, as you've been doing, you're already respecting me.



god created man and gave him freewill, then using that freewill to sin would be misuse. naturally it would lead to consequences. and im not speaking of consequences that god has anything to do with.


But it's not freewill if there's a clause: "Freewill may not be used for sin"


Yes I agree that naturally every action will lead to consequences: natural, physical, psychological consequences, and none of them require god's existence or mood, to manifest.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by converge
But it's not freewill if there's a clause: "Freewill may not be used for sin"



says who?

freewill is the ability to decide for yourself. if you are capable of making one decision or another, you have freewill.

freewill ≠ free from consequence. it just means freedom of choice.

i person can choose to stick their finger in an outlet, just because it wont end well for them doesnt mean they did have the freedom to. lol



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by _Phoenix_
Hi Converge, no, god creates negative and positive things. Fire makes us warm and cooks food, but it also causes death and destruction. It seems that the universe is created like this for a reason. If god exists and has a plan then earth is like this for a reason.


I understand and respect your point of view.

What I've been contesting is that good and bad things seem to exist and happen regardless of god's will.

I mean, surely if there is all powerful and knowing entity that created the Universe and man, he wouldn't want one of his creations to kill another, and yet it happens.

If god really exists then he doesn't interfere with us, because if he did interfere, the world would be a lot different. We'd see his interactions frequently, resulting in things and outcomes that would violate our understanding of the physical world, that's what miracles are after all.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by converge
If god really exists then he doesn't interfere with us, because if he did interfere, the world would be a lot different. We'd see his interactions frequently, resulting in things and outcomes that would violate our understanding of the physical world, that's what miracles are after all.


another possibility that alot of people ignore is that god made a decision to allow evil to exist.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
freewill is the ability to decide for yourself. if you are capable of making one decision or another, you have freewill.

freewill ≠ free from consequence. it just means freedom of choice.


I think we're saying the same thing here. What I said was that if there is a clause, then it's not freewill. And I don't believe that's the case. I believe man has freewill, it applies to everything and everyone, including killing others.



i person can choose to stick their finger in an outlet, just because it wont end well for them doesnt mean they did have the freedom to. lol


But isn't sticking a finger in an outlet proof of freedom? They did something, because they felt like or wanted to, even though the end was disastrous. To me that's freedom.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
another possibility that alot of people ignore is that god made a decision to allow evil to exist.


Actually, if he is the Creator then he created evil as well, and when humans do it, they are manifesting it.

What's your opinion on why god would allow evil to exist? To teach us lessons? To keep us balanced?



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by converge

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
Hi Converge, no, god creates negative and positive things. Fire makes us warm and cooks food, but it also causes death and destruction. It seems that the universe is created like this for a reason. If god exists and has a plan then earth is like this for a reason.


I understand and respect your point of view.

What I've been contesting is that good and bad things seem to exist and happen regardless of god's will.

I mean, surely if there is all powerful and knowing entity that created the Universe and man, he wouldn't want one of his creations to kill another, and yet it happens.

If god really exists then he doesn't interfere with us, because if he did interfere, the world would be a lot different. We'd see his interactions frequently, resulting in things and outcomes that would violate our understanding of the physical world, that's what miracles are after all.

I respect your views too. I respect them because we are both just speculating, and none of us REALLY know the reality, I hate it when people act like they know better or they ARE better than the other guy lol.

I personally believe there is more than meets the eye, there is SO MUCH for us to learn, and that actually makes me happy. I love mysteries haha.

Maybe god wouldn't want us to kill each other, but we can only assume that, who knows what god thinks, or why we are here.

Who knows what god IS, how do we define god(to me, god is whatever force that started the creation of the universe).

We can assume that if god exists that god is something more complex than anything we can imagine. We as humans like to think we know everything.

But If we can't figure out the most complicated maths, if we haven't even explored 000000.1% of the universe, how do we expect to understand the universe, understand god.


Maybe we are merly here to experience or understand ourselves what all this means, what life means, to learn from this etc.

hmmmm..............






[edit on 28-1-2009 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by converge
What I said was that if there is a clause, ....

But isn't sticking a finger in an outlet proof of freedom? They did something, because they felt like or wanted to, even though the end was disastrous. To me that's freedom.


but thats my point. not using freewill to sin is not a clause.

it has disastrous consequences, but we can still do it. it just means that you will die from it.

if you want proof, think about all the times that you have done something that the bible says your not supposed to do. did god smite you? no. your still alive and kicking. and you will be until you grow old and die (unless some unfortunate accident)

this subject is one of the more deeper points of the bible, so im not sure you would like me quoting alot of scriptures, so ill put it as simple as i can.

god did not kill adam and eve. he let them go. he said they would die, not that he would kill them.

it is possible that when they sinned (in this case declared their independence from god) that god cut them off. some christians says that we cant live without god, they usually say this figuratively. but maybe its true in a literal sense. man without god slows down until eventually he dies. like a fan with its electrical cord cut.

using freewill to sin is not ¨claused¨ but god. if you want to leave god, then he simply lets you go.

like a man saying he wants to swim to america. the another man warns him that it wont end well, but the first insists. he has that freedom to go, its his decision, doesnt mean he wont get tired an drown



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
but thats my point. not using freewill to sin is not a clause.

it has disastrous consequences, but we can still do it. it just means that you will die from it.


I think it's pretty clear that we are saying the same thing: man has (apparently) freewill. He can do whatever he wants, even if it means his own death or someone else's.



this subject is one of the more deeper points of the bible, so im not sure you would like me quoting alot of scriptures, so ill put it as simple as i can.


Haha thank you! That one made me laugh




god did not kill adam and eve. he let them go. he said they would die, not that he would kill them. ...

if you want to leave god, then he simply lets you go.


If I'm not mistaken god does directly kill a few people on the bible, does he not?



some christians says that we cant live without god, they usually say this figuratively. but maybe its true in a literal sense. man without god slows down until eventually he dies. like a fan with its electrical cord cut.


What does to "live without god" actually mean? Because I would contest that anyone, regardless of belief or religion will die, whether he "lives with god" or not.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by converge
Actually, if he is the Creator then he created evil as well, and when humans do it, they are manifesting it.


not if evil is a lack of love.

you cant say the inventor of the television also invented the state of NOT having a television.

again you run into the knife scenario. if the knife was invented to cut food, the inventor cannot be blamed for the misuse.


What's your opinion on why god would allow evil to exist? To teach us lessons? To keep us balanced?


to prove a point beyond doubt.

satan called god a liar. told eve that they would be like gods knowing good and evil. there is only one reason a person would want that. they want to be independent of god. they want to make their choices and decide how to live their life.

god did not smite the three right there and then. why not?

well, for one, what if satan was right? what if man could decide what is best for himself?

god knew the answer, but the witnesses (angels) to this event didnt. they never saw anyone lie before. lots of questions come up.

i had an illustration told to me in one of my studies.

say your in a math class as one of the students. the teacher is explaining an equation and how it will turn out. the smartest and brightest student in the class raises his hand and says that he disagrees.

what would you think in that situation? of course the teacher should know, but the student is very very bright, maybe he´s on to something no?

what would be the best way for the teacher to handle the situation? he could tell the kid to be quiet and then continue the lesson, but that does nothing to quiet any doubts other students may have. he could debate with the student, but debates rarely get anywhere especially if the person is set in their beliefs. or he could hand the student the chalk and let him try to prove his point. when the student fails, the class would see that he´s wrong.

god is handing satan the chalk. if satan is to suggest that mankind is better off separate from god, then the only way to deal with the doubt other creatures of freewill is to let him try to prove it.

the world we know is a world without god. this is what life and existence is like when humankind call the shots. for some, its ok. you have our bad times and your good times and your times inbetween and then you die. for most, however, its hell. then you die.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by converge
I think it's pretty clear that we are saying the same thing: man has (apparently) freewill. He can do whatever he wants, even if it means his own death or someone else's.


oh yeah 100%


If I'm not mistaken god does directly kill a few people on the bible, does he not?


yes he does, but in the case of adam and eve, he didnt. they grew old and died. like us.


What does to "live without god" actually mean? Because I would contest that anyone, regardless of belief or religion will die, whether he "lives with god" or not.


like i said. its one of the deeper points of the bible.

adam and eve were perfect. sinless. by all indication, if they hadnt sinned, they would have lived forever.

we are all sinners because of them, much like a genetic defect passed down. so right now, yes you would be right, it doesnt matter if you serve god or not, we all grow old and die.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
god is handing satan the chalk. if satan is to suggest that mankind is better off separate from god, then the only way to deal with the doubt other creatures of freewill is to let him try to prove it.


Thank you for the explanation, I think I've never heard anyone put it that way, but it certainly made things more clear to me.

However, I have a question. Doesn't god already know the outcome? Doesn't god already know if satan will fail or not? Or you don't believe in an omniscient god?



the world we know is a world without god. this is what life and existence is like when humankind call the shots. for some, its ok. you have our bad times and your good times and your times inbetween and then you die. for most, however, its hell. then you die.


I also believe this is a world without god, but on the other hand, I don't think there was ever a world with him.

But anyway, in my opinion this just goes to show how important it is for us to be kind to each others, for mankind to come together and do the right thing for everyone, because there isn't anyone looking out for us. We're responsible for the actions and consequences, no one else.

To some perhaps this is depressing or demoralizing, but to me it's realistic. And instead of being gloomy, I think of it more as challenging and a motivation to keep going and trying to do the right thing.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by converge
However, I have a question. Doesn't god already know the outcome? Doesn't god already know if satan will fail or not? Or you don't believe in an omniscient god?


of course he knows satan will fail. just like the professor knows that the student is wrong. but its not about proving it to god, it about proving it to us.

in effect, its like god saying ¨if you want to do things your way, this is how it will turn out and ill prove it to you¨

i think its ironic that we have an earth death clock. we´ve been hovering around 2 minutes to twelve for the past what, 10 years?



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
i think its ironic that we have an earth death clock. we´ve been hovering around 2 minutes to twelve for the past what, 10 years?


I believe you are talking about the Doomsday Clock, but that has to do with nuclear war and climate change and some other stuff.

It was closer to midnight in 1953 for example, than it is now.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by converge
I believe you are talking about the Doomsday Clock, but that has to do with nuclear war and climate change and some other stuff.

It was closer to midnight in 1953 for example, than it is now.


ok but.. when has humans ever had to worry about self imposed doomsday before the last century?

it has gotten to the point where man is able to make its self extinct within minutes.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 06:36 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
ok but.. when has humans ever had to worry about self imposed doomsday before the last century?

it has gotten to the point where man is able to make its self extinct within minutes.


I agree with you, and that means we have a much bigger responsibility nowadays. One decision in one part of the world could have tremendous consequences in another. We're all increasingly interconnected.

But there's also the possibility of a doomsday outside of man's control, and that one was always present. Asteroids, extreme climate conditions, and so on.



posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 07:01 PM
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“A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the Lord in vain - then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity. Is that the system



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 01:37 AM
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Originally posted by converge
I agree with you, and that means we have a much bigger responsibility nowadays.


the sad part is, even with so many things breathing down our neck, i dont see humanity as a whole taking responsibility.



posted on Feb, 3 2009 @ 02:28 AM
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lOL Miriam I dont mean to hit on you. But as a Christian I see you beauty in all ways. God bless nice pic..



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