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What killed GM

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posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:11 AM
As a GM employee, I attend meetings regularly and have a good insight as to what is happening with them and what has gone wrong. I also spent some time with Toyota.

Yes, the automotive industry is hurting right now. Yes, consumer spending is at a low, but it has been before. It has been worse, and still this company prospered. Yet, it seems in a few short months they have suddenly lost everything. How is that possible?

Here is their problem. First of all, Product redundency. The Chevy Malibu is the Saturn Astra, the GMC Acadia is the Saturn Outlook. Most of their product line is clones of other models. The logic was, if they buy the Saturn over the GMC, its a win for GM either way. But thats wrong. Its not. GM still has one more vehicle sitting there not sold. Unused inventory equals debt...

Secondly is inferior products. And I mean EXTREMELY inferior. From working in a service garage I have personally seen at least 2 dozen of their vehicles need a new cylinder head or engine within the first 5 thousand miles. Where does any profit from the car go? Warranty repairs.

Once nafta kicked in and they were allowed to start producing cars in Mexico, that was suppose to boom them. It had the opposite effect. What you now have is unskilled workers assembling cars as cheaply as possible.

Also, all those plant workers who made a liveable wage and used to buy your autos (at employee cost) now are no longer employees and cant buy your crappy cars anymore.

More and more they have cut back on quality. Airbag harnesses arent properly routed in the steering wheels, causing warning and costly warranty repairs. Engine blocks are being cast pourously and causing mystery oil leaks that can only be fixed by replacing the engine. Just on the 08 Saturn Outlooks there are over 9 recalls on that model ALONE.

Bottom line, the product line is crap. Instead of having a cutting a line here and there or consolidating them, they outsourced them. They have cut every american job they can and expect us to compete (salary speaking) with a Mexican who makes 20 bucks a month to make that car.

The reason Toyota has prosepered is because they build their product here. Their employees OWN them and buy new ones.

In my opinion they dont need any of our money. Let them fall and let the free market decide who stays and who leaves. Then we can learn from the mistakes. Right now the only lesson I see being taught is "Its ok to be careless and greedy for profit. If you fail, just come crawling with your hands out. Your good ole' Uncle Sam will have some money for you to waste".

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:21 AM
I'm gonna saythe new GTO. Why? Cause Goat lovers were tld they would have a new gto, only to have that crapfest that looks like the g6 or whatever they call the grand prix now, but with gto badges. Take a hint from dodge with the challnger, make it look more like the original.

I lost all faith in GM when that happened.

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:28 AM
Exactly. Redundency.

The fix? Who knows, but mark my words.. GM will not survive this year. The first few billion was just a bandaid on a bullet wound. No sooner did they cash that check they started up last week saying by March they will be out of cash again. Things arent going to get better. I hate to say it, but Bush was right. Why put good money after bad?

Instead of bailing them out, let them die. Use the funds to reeducate the displaced workers or offer them cash to get by untill they find other work.

GM swears the VOLT will ressurect them. It will not. One car (subcompact) will not save the entire company.

The only way for them to survive is as follows:

A) Cut product lines... Saturn? Gone. Its an independent franchise that GM pays for. Let them go be their own again. Cut Hummer (rumour has it, that its sold, but definite) Quit making GMC pickup trucks. They are no different then Chevy trucks. Eliminate Pontiac and make Buick a side line to Chevy cars. Eliminate Buick dealers and consolidate them with Chevy dealers.

But of course GM doesnt see it that way. Instead, they turn GMAC into a "bank" which makes them eligilble for all the bailout money they want.

Stupid stupid stupid.

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:34 AM
reply to post by spliff4020

What killed GM?
1) Union leadership protecting the a$$holes "just like" the good workers.
2) A group of top-heavy money-grubbing senior mgmt/executives.
3) A sorry, ego-centric UAW President who can't see past his face and wallet!
4) A "blame" culture thats see problems as a 'got-ya' moment and not as an opportunity!

I can back up each with 5 examples each, but no time!!!!



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:46 AM
As someone who works with the auto industry, and works with all the different manufactures, GM has always been cheap on things. Over the past years I do way more for the other companies in general because they all pay us better. About the only ones that GM beats out is ones like Saturn and Scions, which we don't really do much at all with, except for the occasional individual dealers.

I can get 2 or 3 times as much from Ford, Honda or Toyota than I can for doing the same thing with GM. We don't promote GM very much at all, but those 3 we do a bunch for. Ford is however 3rd on that list.

And this is an area that makes up a huge amount of all car sales. Like atleast 70% of all car sales nationwide. Obviously not just with my company, but many others - and they pretty much operate in the same way we do.

Plus, there just isn't as much interest in the GM cars for whatever reason. Gas mileage and other things I'd guess. So I'd say it's a combination of things as far as their sales go. I don't know about their costs, unions and such.

But I do know the reason the Camaro went away for those years was because they wanted to close a Plant down that had a contract on the body style or something. So they had to drop the car for a few years so they could build it in a different plant or something. This is however hearsay from someone who works in their advertising department from a few years ago.

Another factor I just thought of is financing. This is another area I work in somewhat(I don't do much directly in it, but I'm around it and see numbers), but that area and insurance is actually still going somewhat strong as far as people looking for loans and looking for better rates. I don't know how many of the people who apply for loans actually get them however.

Somewhat surprising is I haven't seen much of an increase in demand for used cars. I had been expecting to see a substantial increase there, and it hasn't come. There is a little increase, but no where near what I was expecting. Maybe it is still to come.

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:51 AM
The downfall of the American car manufactures is summed up in 2 words.

Planned Obsolescence.

Any vehicle that is designed for parts to start fing up after 60kmi, so the owner will get frustrated and buy another vehicle is just stupid.

I have a Toyota PU 250k mi. that runs better than when I bought it.
I wanted to buy American being an American craftsman myself but I'd rather pay more for quality. I don't need flash and Logo appeal.

[edit on 24-1-2009 by whaaa]

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:54 AM
It will be interesting to actually what China does about this. China wants in on the US market and GM seems to be the way. China already has a Volt type system and would most likely use this in GM products. Who knows. But the GM volt with it's slave gas engine could have been here long ago. I've read about drive train conversions that may save many of these new and older cars as well. I would be tempted on dropping one of these into my car long before I ever buy new.

GM as it stands, probably doesn't have a chance without China. I'm glad my GM is older with an engine that already has 100,000 miles already.

These jerks and the oil companies have been screwing us for many years and the government had their share in it as well.

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:54 AM
I agree with all the reasons you listed as why GM is failing.

- lack of quality products
- redundancy, I believe GM makes 50 different models. 50! the majority are clones of other models. It lowers the quality overall and stretches the desgin and R&D budgets too thin.

I think they should Eliminate GMC, Pontiac, Buick. Keep 3 brands.
Saturn as entry level with a sub compact, a cheap hybrid, and a crossover. Have no car over 20,000.

Chevy remanins as the mid-level brand. Have the impala, the volt, suburban with hybrid option, the new camaro, combine the saturn 2 seat convertible and pontiac's versiom into a new corvair. Sell the truck with hybrid option. Keep the corvette but have the next generation be a hybrid sports car. They have to do something with the upcoming CAFE restrictions and it would generate huge buzz and positive PR.

Cadillac becomes a true luxury brand. Its not anymore. Cadillacs
are horrible pieces of junk compared to what they used to be. And cannot truly compete with BMW, Benz and Audi. Upgrade and Keep the DTS, CTS and escalade with hybrid option. Spend the money wasted on buick, gmc and pontiac to construct a quality expensive car 60,000 +

[edit on 24-1-2009 by drock905]

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:55 AM
Coolest avatar ever spliff.

Originally posted by spliff4020
As a GM employee, I attend meetings regularly and have a good insight as to what is happening with them and what has gone wrong. I also spent some time with Toyota.

Well you see, Hitler had a plan which went beyond the defeat of the Third Reich. He designed great gear including the "Folks-Wagon"... Then, after Germany was split up, the Folkswagon was the main vehicle to carry the Fourth Reich (now in the form of the US via the importing of Nazi douchebag scientists). Any great world revolutionary power like Germany circa 1938 KNOWS it's gonna have to have a second push, and Das Auto is the perfect.. ahem... vehicle.

Clearly GM still had the upper hand and the cars they made in the 50s and 60s were simply the greatest cars ever, from any analytical angle, especially styling. The Musclecars of the sixties were like the pinnacle of what GM, Mopar and Ford (barely even made a muscle car) would ever accomplish. But then the OPEC crisis came, and this was like a Post-WW2 Tet Offensive in the Auto Wars. OPEC buried the Allied Car Machines and imbued great power and rise to Das Auto and the Japanese (Axis powers).

If we hadn't been hijacked by idiots nationally, (It's obvious GM was lost during the 70s) we should have won the Auto Wars. We were so supremely poised for success with great car designs and a booming drug trade in Laos. ..But America had some really stupid and unimaginative people running our Allied Car Machines (factories) and they built crap, year after year during the 1970s.

Ahh globalism. It allows us to forget war, as if war ever goes away. Nope. It just changes into Nafta and bridgebuilding. ...Hey, ask your bosses if they feel that Nafta helped Mexico OR the US? Didn't I hear that Mexico is like, right next to Pakistan on the list of countries which may collapse at any moment?

Now, the Auto Wars are over. The OPEC and NAFTA traitors who sank GM (and America?) have been cash-rewarded by the useless American politicians. Now, Das Auto (Volkswagon) is the biggest company in the WORLD, followed by Toyota/Nissan/Mitsu. Axis powers won the Auto Wars. Now what? As you have mentioned, they have plants operating here in the US which kick our auto-arses, daily.

The Boys of Brazil was a bit melodramatic I think? It's Ford and GM who are hiding out in other countries now. How bout that huge plant GM just built in St. Petersburg Russia? UAW gonna relocate workers there?

GM: We Like Russia Better

GM's got plans for even when there's no Americans left at all.

Corporations are the Lestat-type Vampires of our day. But hey, Volkswagon seems to have such a slickly designed future planned for me, how shall I resist? Each Turbo-Diesel comes with a built-in iMac I heard.

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 10:02 AM
Just the view of an average Frog on why I switched from GM to Ford.

A note: Having looked at / test drove etc, the Japanise models I do feel they are nicer & higher quaility than the US on average. However, my 2 reasons for not buying one so far have been that I've tried (even though its hurt me sometimes) to buy US products and I think the Jap. ones are a little too expensive.

Ok - why I switched from GM to Ford after owning 4 GM products (all Chevys) starting in the 90's to present day.

1) Quality - they seemed fine for a bit. But around 50k miles it was like the "self destruct" module kicked it. It was just one thing after another. Though one truck I traded in at 10k miles. The clutch would disengage / engage when going over a could never fix it or just wouldn't.

2) Dealer / Company arrogance & lies - My wife's car got that paint delamination that happened some years back. We were told by the dealer it was her fault, and they wouldn't do anything except charge her to repaint it, etc. So she drove it looking horrible for several months. Then the recall came out and it did get repainted. No appology from the dealer for basically treating us like crap before the recall came out. Several times in shopping I'd get a price - go home to think on it - come back and be told the price was no longer valid. I'd have to pay a higher price they wouldn't budge from so I walked. Dealers did not want to hear, "let me look or think about it" - if I wasn't wanting to drive it away that day they were not interested and rude.

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 10:43 AM
ok,,, here's what i heard

GM hasn't made money ,,,or at least good money on cars in over 30 years.
however the money they did have was put into short term investments during the housing bust and such and padded the numbers into looking very good,,,, they were raking in money as all others were when the times were good and americans were being sold down the river

also i saw a number where they owed some like hundreds of millions for retirement and healthcare for people no longer currently working,,,,can't remember the exact number but it was staggering

also,,, as a minitrucker,,,,the chevy s-10 rocked,, from 82 on,,,,the chevy luv was junk,,,,,,, but why did they all abandon minitrucks,,,,the clorado is not a minitruck in my mind,,, it's an undergrown fullsize,,,,,, imagine a lightweight,,, high mpg low cost truck right now. I bet they would have no trouble selling them.

also look how many businesses used those s-10 as business trucks
delivery co's
window washers
parts delivery

you see hundreds everyday using minitrucks as a cheaper than driving a fullsize ,,, business truck

maybe i'm partial but i can't go out todfay and buy a true mintruck from not one manufacturer

i'm still sad seeing the heritage collection sold off at barret jackson

now it's all split up,,,,,,,

ps---most of them are sold with scrap titles,,, deeming them non drivable

what a waist,,, and yeah i know,,, where there's a will,, there's a way

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 12:30 PM
What killed G.M. ??

1. Unions
2. Management
3. Suppression of Technology

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 12:35 PM
ps... remember checkers cab company

well they just filed for bankruptcy.,,,apparently they still do metal stamping for the big 3 or did do stamping for them

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 01:45 PM
reply to post by spliff4020

Totally agree with you about the redundancy. Most of their cars are exactly the same with a different grill or headlights or some other minor aesthetic difference.

What's funny is that the Big 3 know what the problem is because they all do great everywhere except for North America. Every where outside of North America, they focus on just a few models and make sure the quality is up to snuff with competitors. Look at Ford in Brazil for example, the biggest hits are the Eco sport, Fiesta, and a escape-type vehicle (can't remember the name at the moment.) Their factories are far more advanced in all those countries with much more robotics doing much of the menial labor and much more integrated supply chain for parts and vendors etc..

They know what the problem is. They know how to fix it. They just would rather have handouts rather than file chapter 11 and reorganize into a 21st century company.


Just wanted to add that another problem lies with the fact that unions and states like Michigan treated the company like a cash cow and milked it dry expecting always to make money because in the past they had always made money. The politicians, the unions, and management seemed to have forgot was the reason why GM used to make money was because they were competitive and tried to stay ahead of the curve.

You can't have a golden goose laying golden eggs if you cook up and eat the golden goose.

[edit on 24-1-2009 by Cool Hand Luke]

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 05:04 PM
John Todd said in the 1970s that when it came time for the NWO to truly establish itself, they would begin bankrupting their own companies.

NOW does it make sense why all the "domestic" car companies are producing crap?

Oh, and to those of you that think you are "buying American", I've got news for you. A larger percentage of the parts of a Toyota and Honda are actually made in America than a Ford, Chevy, or Chrysler.

posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 08:42 PM

Originally posted by The Undertaker
What killed G.M. ??

1. Unions
2. Management
3. Suppression of Technology


The unions have nothing to do with this. Every time bargaining time comes along, the workers have to give more and more concessions. Hell, I wish I had someone to fight for me at my job. If GM could, they would have shipped every single manufacturing job to Mexico. But then they couldnt call themselves "american made cars" anymore. Even Saturns are made in mexico. There and Belgium. The old Spring Hill plant is now just a parts warehouse.

2.Management. Agreed.
At the dealership, we had a parts district rep, a sales district rep and service district rep. And then there were regional ones on top of those. Also, there were district dealer reps. Now, why not bundle parts and service into one? To much work? No. We saw that guy maybe twice a year. He would stop in, say Hi, walk around drink coffee, drop off donuts and tell us all "great job!". Utterly useless. I promise not one of them made less than 50g a year and all drove company cars. Those are the problems. And there are hundreds of them.

While they were in DC begging for money, they paid for our service director to stay in Detroit and go to a conference on customer satsifaction. You know what satisfies customers? A service manager on site. (and not having to be there to begin with)

3. Suppression?

I dont think so. Not suppression. Stupidty. They say that they respond to what the market wants, but nots effective. 30 years ago noone realized that they wanted to carry their music with them every where they go, until someone showed them it. No one wanted to sit in front of the tv and play games, until some one showed them.

GM could have been way ahead of the curve here. Toyota released Hybrids in 00. They were test marketed for about close to 10 years before that. What was GM doing? "Responding to consumer demand".

I dont think they intentionally suppressed anything. I think they blatently ignored change. They thought it wouldnt never take and why waste money?

And honestly they were right about one thing. The hybrids arent really about saving gas. Its emmission related. They are good, but once you turn on the a/c, you start running off the compressor and you suck gas like everyone else.

Bottom line, they build garbage throw-away cars. They then, over-price these things. They then over extend themselves on warranty repairs that go into the thousands of dollars regularly. They then, hemmorage money on the stupidist of things, like private jets and the such and go on tv and blame the union guys and retirees. Stick it to the little guys.

Screw them. Let em tank. Someone else will grab up their share of the market quick.

posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 10:35 PM
spliff,,, OP,,,,i was hoping for a response from you on what i heard???

true,,, totally untrue???

posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 11:30 PM
Just last Monday I dropped $40K on a brand new car for my dear wife. We looked at a lot of reviews and in the Consumer Reports buying guide. Almost every car on the "Best" list was Japanese and almost every car on the "Worst" list was American. We settled on a Toyota and expect to be driving it for many years to come. I was very pleasantly surprised when I read the recommended maintenance schedule:

Oil change every 5K miles.
Air Filter change every 30K miles.
Change the engine coolant at 100K miles.
Change the spark plugs at 120K miles.

That is the whole schedule!!

Compare that to the maintenance schedule for an American car and you will be shocked at the difference.

I wish there was an American car I could buy and be happy with - but there isn't. I can't afford to spend my dollars on CRAP - and that is what American cars have become. That is pretty much the bottom line. It doesn't really matter who is at fault, the result is the same.

posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 12:56 PM
Got this email today (verified by Snopes)

>> GM supplier answers GM President Troy Clarke's "plea" / Great response

>> This is one of the greatest responses to the requests for bailout money I
>> have seen thus far. As a supplier for the Big 3, this man received a letter
>>from the President of GM North America requesting support for the bail out
> > program. His response is classic, and has to make you proud of a local
>> guy who tells it like it is.
>> Dear Employees & Suppliers,
>> Congress and the current Administration will soon determine whether to
>> provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through
>> one of the most difficult economic times in our nation's history. Your elected
>> officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our
>> continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis.
>> As an employee or supplier, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one
>> of our most effective and passionate voices. I know GM can count
>> on you to have your voice heard. Thank you for your urgent action and
>> ongoing support.
>> Troy Clarke President General Motors North America

>> Response from:
>> Gregory Knox, Pres.
>> Knox Machinery Company
>> Franklin , Ohio
>> Gentlemen:
>> In response to your request to contact legislators and ask for a bailout for
>> the Big Three automakers please consider the following, and please pass my
>> thoughts on to Troy Clark, President of General Motors - North America .
>> Politicians and Management of the Big 3 are both infected with the same
>> entitlement mentality that has spread like cancerous germs in UAW halls
>> for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping this nation,
>> awaiting our new "messiah", Pres-elect Obama, to wave his magic wand and
>> make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once
>> great nation to keep "living the dream"… Believe me folks, The dream is over!
>> This dream where we can ignore the consumer for years while management
>> myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that
>> our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant,
>> ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for >> these atrocities…this dream where you still think the masses will line up to
>> buy our products for ever and ever.
>> Don't even think about telling me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not
>> knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi ,
>> Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM's throughout the Midwest during the past 30 years and what I've seen over those years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.
>> Troy Clarke, President of General Motors North America , states: "There
>> is widespread sentiment throughout this country, and our government, and
>> especially via the news media, that the current crisis is completely the
>> result of bad management which it certainly is not."
>> You're right Mr. Clarke, it's not JUST management…how about the
>> electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag ass…so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time…for a job they easily could have
>> done within their normal 40 hour work week. How about the line workers who
>> threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics…for putting out too many parts >> on a shift…and for being too productive
>> (We certainly must not expose those lazy bums who have been getting
>> overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?)
>> Do you folks really not know about this stuff?!? How about this great
>> sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea: "over the last few
>> years …we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors." >> What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!? Did we really JUST >> wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them?
>> The K car vs. the Accord? The Pinto vs. the Civic?!? Do I need to go
>> on? What a joke!
>> We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United
>> States auto industry for decades. It's time to pay for your sins, Detroit .
>> I attended an economic summit last week where brilliant economist, Alan
>> Beaulieu, from the Institute of Trend Research , surprised the crowd when
>> he said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money". "Yes, he
>> said, this would cause short term problems," but despite what people like
>> politicians and corporate magnates would have us believe, the sun would in
>> fact rise the next day… and the following very important thing would happen…>> where there had been greedy and sloppy banks, new efficient ones would pop
>> up…that is how a free market system works…it does work…if we would only let >> it work…"
>> But for some nondescript reason we are now deciding that the rest of the
>> world is right and that capitalism doesn't work - that we need the government to
>> step in and "save us"…Save us my ass, Hell - we're nationalizing…and
>> unfortunately too many of our once fine nation's citizens don't even have
>> a clue that this is what is really happening…But, they sure can tell you the
>> stats on their favorite sports teams…yeah - THAT'S really important, isn't it…
>> Does it ever occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing
>> vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades in this country?... How can
>> that be??? Let's see… Fuel efficient… Listening to customers… Investing in
>> the proper tooling and automation for the long haul…
>> Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr. W. Edwards Deming
>> four decades ago when he taught that by adopting appropriate principles of
>> management, organizations could increase quality and simultaneously reduce
>> costs. Ever increased productivity through

posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 12:57 PM
quality and intelligent planning…
>> Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy"…
>> Efficient front and back offices… Non union environment…
>> Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone
>> anything they really don't already know down deep in their hearts.
>> I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting
>> someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into - my
>> children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did when I was
>> their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, >> by the way) - I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences
>> of their actions and work through it. Radical concept, huh… Am I there for
>> them in the wings? Of course - but only until such time as they need to
>> be fully on their own as adults.
>> I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are
>> unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and
>> government. Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins. Bad
>> news people - it's coming whether we like it or not. The newly elected Messiah >> really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away." I laughed
>> as I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the final vote
>> count was tallied…"we really might not do it in a year…or in four…" Where
>> the Hell was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for office.
>> Stop trying to put off the inevitable folks … That house in Florida
>> really isn't worth $750,000… People who jump across a border really don't
>> deserve free health care benefits… That job driving that forklift for the Big 3
>> really isn't worth $85,000 a year… We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock
>> their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates
>> their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face
>> of the globe…
>> That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be
>> living in that $485,000 home. Let the market correct itself folks - it will.
>> Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna' be painful either way, and the
>> bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it all, is a nation that
>> appreciates what it has…and doesn't live beyond its means…and gets back
>> to basics…and redevelops the patriotic work ethic that made it the greatest
>> nation in the history of the world…and probably turns back to God.
>> Sorry - don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you
>> the "bad news". I hope you take it to heart.
>> Gregory J. Knox, President
>> Knox Machinery, Inc.
>> Franklin, Ohio 45005

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