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Baroness Tonge: "Israel stands accused of war crimes witnessed by the whole world"

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posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 06:32 AM
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reply to post by Ownification
 


The jewish people have been livING in the area of Israel for thousands of years. They did not livED in the area, and then return. As if there were no Jewish people living in the area that is now Israel, before Israel again became an independent state. You are the one preaching ignorance.

The Jewish people who have maintained a continous presence in the area for thousands of years have a right to create a nation of their own. Just because Muslims conquered the area a thousand years ago, does not mean that they have the right to control that area forever, as you to claim.

You claimed that "Muslims are looking for their old empire", I just pointed out how wrong you are. You can't even read, let alone debate.

Ah yes, you want to claim any and all acts of war are terrorism, just like you want to claim the Jews lived in the area of Israel, and then returned, as if they had completely left the area. You want to pretend you have a right to deny Israel a state of its own in an area which Jews have occupied for thousands of years. You want to claim that murdering people in a market square by blowing yourself up is acceptable. You want to claim that intentionally blowing up a school full of children is acceptabe. You want to claim that killing people in a hotel in a suicide mission is ok. The way you twist everything to justify these actions is really sad.




posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 08:15 AM
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heres a little spanner in the works of something im researching;

are the israeli`s now a semite people?


being the population of israel , in the main , comprises of converts to and Ashkenazi jews , from europe ,can it be truely said that the people of Israel are semites now?

And what of the discrimination of the Sephardi Jews within israel iteself?

someone mentioned a `master race` being the jews - but like all religions jewishness is a hot arguement within israel - and Sephardi Jews are not looked upon as being `as jewish` as the othes.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:37 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


The very first Arabs date back to the Assyrian Empire.(9th century BC)
Which at the time was to the north/north east of Israel.

Over time this word was used to describe people who were Jewish,Christianwww.jerusalemites.org... and Muslim.In some countries it still does.

This word is not the same as that which is used to describe those from Arabia.Which is to the south east of Israel.The word Arab derives from the word A'raab.It has a similar meaning to the Assyrian word,but it is not the same.


So,there are 2 different groups of peoples known as Arabs.One group have lived in the area of Israel for almost 3000yrs and the other for about 1400yrs.One were/are exclusively Mulsim and the other Muslim,Jewish and Christian.

And the genes of both exist in the people of the Middle East today,no matter their religion.




[edit on 5-2-2009 by DantesLost]



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification
 


The jewish people have been livING in the area of Israel for thousands of years. They did not livED in the area, and then return. As if there were no Jewish people living in the area that is now Israel, before Israel again became an independent state. You are the one preaching ignorance.

Please quote me, I never said they did not live in that area. This is going beyong stupidity. Jews from Europe, from America, from Russia all returned. Once again I have to repeat my selfe like a dog "wof, wof again". Why won't they let the Indiant Americans, the Moaris, Australian and Canadian aborigines to control their land.



The Jewish people who have maintained a continous presence in the area for thousands of years have a right to create a nation of their own. Just because Muslims conquered the area a thousand years ago, does not mean that they have the right to control that area forever, as you to claim.

Please quote me, I never said they did not live in that area. This is going beyong stupidity. Jews from Europe, from America, from Russia all returned. Once again I have to repeat my selfe like a dog "wof, wof again". Why won't they let the Indiant Americans, the Moaris, Australian and Canadian aborigines to control their land.



You claimed that "Muslims are looking for their old empire", I just pointed out how wrong you are. You can't even read, let alone debate.

If you wanna go there than let's go there. Radical Muslims, who are they, what do they believe in? Why do you think America has started a war against Radical Islam? Radical Muslims follow the Tabeiin, the Atba Tabeiin these are the generations after their Prophet. Because of these individuals Islam rose to an empire from the deserts of Arabia. Go read more.


Ah yes, you want to claim any and all acts of war are terrorism, just like you want to claim the Jews lived in the area of Israel, and then returned, as if they had completely left the area. You want to pretend you have a right to deny Israel a state of its own in an area which Jews have occupied for thousands of years. You want to claim that murdering people in a market square by blowing yourself up is acceptable. You want to claim that intentionally blowing up a school full of children is acceptabe. You want to claim that killing people in a hotel in a suicide mission is ok. The way you twist everything to justify these actions is really sad.

I'm going to reply fast because don't want to waste my time with you, it is whaitangi day wanna go have fun get some drinks.


When U.S. warplanes strafed [with AC-130 gunships] the farming village of Chowkar-Karez, 25 miles north of Kandahar on October 22-23rd,killing at least 93 civilians, a Pentagon official said, "the people there are dead because we wanted them dead." The reason? They sympathized with the Taliban1. When asked about the Chowkar incident, Rumsfeld replied, "I cannot deal with that particular village."2



"When people decry civilian deaths caused by the U.S. government, they're aiding propaganda efforts. In sharp contrast, when civilian deaths are caused by bombers who hate America, the perpetrators are evil and those deaths are tragedies.

When they put bombs in cars and kill people, they're uncivilized killers. When we put bombs on missiles and kill people, we're upholding civilized values. When they kill, they're terrorists. When we kill, we're striking against terror."4



The Afghan town of Charikar, 60 kms north of Kabul, has been the recipient of many US bombs and missiles. On Saturday, November 17th, US bombs killed two entire families -- one of 16 members and the other of 14 -- perished, together in the same house.19



On the same day, bomb strikes in Khanabad near Kunduz, killed 100 people. A refugee, Mohammed Rasul, recounts himself burying 11 people, pulled out of ruins there [ibid].



At least 13 were killed, including Mazen Tumeisi, an Arab journalist, and more than 60 injured when U.S. helicopters opened fire on the crowd that had gathered around a destroyed Bradley fighting vehicle on Sunday.

They used a helicopter instead of a car filled with bombs therefore in your little head they did not commit acts of terror. Take you head off your ass man, doesn't it hurt, when you see all of this?



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 08:45 AM
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reply to post by Ownification
 


Here's your quote.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Now you are sooo ignorant that you don't even know what is wrong with your statement, I never claimed they didn't live in that land previousely, heck before the Jews someone else lived there, remember. The problem with your sentence is your proclamation that since they lived in that land 2000 years ago, they have the right to return and control that land which other's are living in.


Once again the exact statement.


they lived in that land 2000 years ago, they have the right to return


In your slippery and deceptive statement, you try to claim that the jewish people left the area 2,000 years ago, and then returned to reclaim the land. Now you try to deny what you have written. No where do you admit that Jewish people were living in the area that is now Israel, and had been living there for thousands of years.

You want to pretend that there were not Jewish people continuously living in the area that is now Israel. Those people deserved to have a nation of their own, just as the Muslims living in the area deserved to have a nation. That is why two nations were created. Then the newly created Muslim nation of Palestine decided that the Jewish people should not have a nation of their own, declared war, got their butts kicked, and lost their land. That is what happens when you lose a war, when you were the aggressor. Radical Muslims claimed, and still today claim, that they intend to destroy Israel. No one is going to live next door to someone that has sworn to destroy them, and that is how things got where they are today. That is the truth you are trying to deny.

Indians in the U.S. have their own territories, where they have their own government. They are also free to live anywhere in the country, and a great many left the reservation long ago, and have become a part of our country. In addition, a great many of people in the U.S. have some ancestory to the native americans. Their culture is practiced and respected Yes, there are racist jerks here in the U.S., but they are not supported or respected here in the U.S..

I know quite a bit about the rise of Islam, and like I said earlier, they are still expanding through violent means.

As far as your quotes go, you don't provide a link. The quotes quote someone else claiming they made a statement, which is out of context, and then the quote interprets that statement into the meaning they choose. It is meaningly, just repeated propaganda. A group of Taliban soldiers were killed just after dropping off their weapons and changing their clothes after an attack, and they claim that they were villagers. When that is the way they operate, then they bring destruction on their own families. It is all part of the deception. If you are in a war zone, you don't go check out a blown up tank, because then you look like you are the people who destroyed the tank, and you will likely get killed. Maybe those people were the ones who destroyed the tank, and they claim to be someone else. The lies are clearly thicker than their blood. All the examples you have provided are soldiers going after others who they believe are soldiers, who are attacking them whenever the opportunity presents itself.

These same people, the Talliban, are also killing girls for going to school, and burning down schools for educating girls. Young school GIRLS who live in their own communities. These are the acts that make then terrorists, terrorist bast@rds who deserve to die. How can you support people like this? Can you drink enough to get this off your mind. Clearly you have no desire to pull your head out of your A$$.



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 08:57 AM
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reply to post by DantesLost
 


Yep, the real difference is religion. Here is a good article that accurately portrays the situation.

www.theatlantic.com...


Today Israeli Arabs (that is, Palestinians living within Israel's pre-1967 borders and in East Jerusalem) have one of the highest population-growth rates in the world (among Israeli Arabs in the Negev, specifically, it is the highest), and they now make up about 20 percent of Israel's population; demographers project that they'll compose nearly a quarter of the population by 2020, and as much as 30 percent by 2050. (These figures don't count the approximately 150,000 Palestinian noncitizens, drawn to Israel largely by the prospect of higher-paying jobs, who live there illegally.)


Europe had better be paying attention. Population growth is a time bomb that will end us as a species. This is how Islam succeeds. This paints a future that is not a pretty picture.

[edit on 6-2-2009 by poet1b]



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b

Europe had better be paying attention. Population growth is a time bomb that will end us as a species. This is how Islam succeeds. This paints a future that is not a pretty picture.

[edit on 6-2-2009 by poet1b]


Islam..The real monster

Ok, now give directions: What should Europe do?



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by deccal
 


You like the idea that the population growth of Islam could make Islam a monster, don't you? Has the devil shown his face?

The real answer, go after honor killings, require a level of public education, provide shelters and protection for those who want to leave the religion, and make it readily available. When an honor killing occurs, arrest not only the son who committed the murder, but his entire family, and his religious advisors if collusion can be proven.



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification
 


Here's your quote.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Once again the exact statement.




they lived in that land 2000 years ago, they have the right to return

And where in that sentence did I said Jews didn't live in Palestine?
"The problem with your sentence is your proclamation that since they lived in that land 2000 years ago, they have the right to return and control that land which other's are living in"

OK let's stick to the Palestinian/Israeli issue for now because this is becoming a slure, no more point to point discussion. Get some history lesson.


The first outward manifestation of a play for Palestine formally surfaced on August 13 1945, when the World Zionist Congress demanded admission of 1 million Jews to Palestine. It should be remembered that at this point, the war had ended, the Germans had surrendered, and concentration camps of all descriptions had been emptied. Europe was filled with people whose possessions had been completely destroyed and who were forced to start all over again from nothing. Many even had to clear away the rubble to get to that state. However, the Jews who later emigrated from all over the globe to settle in Palestine had not been born in Palestine, nor had their fathers or their fathers' fathers. In fact, Jews have as much claim to Palestinian property as the American Indians will have to reclaim America two thousand years from now!!



What title-deeds do the Jews of today actually have to the land of 'Israel'? The idea that a people can possess some kind of ethnic ancestral right to a territory supposedly vacated by their forebears some millenia previously, implying a right in perpetuity, can have no legal basis. Or otherwise Americans of European ancestry, to name just one group of people, will have to pack their bags.



"The Jewish population of Palestine [what is now Israel and the occupied territories, the West Bank and Gaza] at the time of the Balfour Declaration in 1917 was a mere 7 percent of the 700,000 inhabitants.

Only 7 percent Jews were actually from that region and not from Europe or America.


Jews of eastern European origin, who are known as the Ashkenazi Jews and who make up about 95% of the Jewish population of today, are of Khazar origin.

What 95%, they are not even from that area they are Europeans wtf how did they get there? Only those 7% Jews had a right to that land not the European refugees who were being massicared by Democratically elected governments in Europe, it was your ancestors who killed them


Once again why did they create a Jewish state? Because 7% Jews lived in that area? Or because the Jewish population was greater in the past similar to the Indian American population. But the difference is that they killed large amount of Indian Americans ( 8.4 million to a high of 112.5 million persons.) Holy crap that's more than the Jewish massicar in Europe, it even has a special name umm the Holocaust, who can forget.

The wierd thing about this whole issue is that Arabs are as simite as Jews.



[edit on 102828p://28b2 by Ownification]



posted on Feb, 6 2009 @ 10:40 PM
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reply to post by Ownification
 


There is very little genetic difference between European(Ashkenazi) and non-European(Sephardic) Jews. That is actual genetic evidence.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 04:22 AM
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reply to post by Ownification
 


Yeah, I noticed that you didn't actually say Jews didn't live in the area, You said they lived there and returned, same thing. This is a typical technique of yours, say something in a round about way, so you can deny it later. It is cheap and sleazy, and fools no one. Like I said, you don't care about the truth.

After the break up of the Ottoman Turkish empire, many nations were created. Just because the Israelis did not have as large of a population doesn't mean that they shouldn't have been given a nation of their own. Jews from all over the world have a right to immigrate to the new Israel, why shouldn't they? Muslims were given too much of the territory they have conquered over the last thousand years in my opinion.

This isn't about Israel's right to exist, and we all know it. The Kurds deserve their own nation, but no one is protesting for their rights. There is also what the Turks did to the Armenians. The Muslim hatred of Israel is beyond reasonable.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 05:27 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


My family (fathers side) were Malkite Catholic Palestinians. Why do people keep making arguments based on muslim terrorism, and muslim territory, and muslim this and that.

What about Christianity, the religion that came to be from events in that region? The Christians were driven out and subjected to rape and violence and murder and lost their homes because of the occupation too. Why don't you mention the Palestinian Christians or aren't we worth the mention? Or does your justification only work if you mention muslims?

We're all people. The Jews are no better than the muslims or the christians. Everyone cuts and bleed the same. What they did to these people cannot be justified no matter what spin you put on it. They came out of countries as victims only to victimize and continue to victimize others in a different country.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 01:27 PM
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reply to post by Obliterated
 


Hmm, my understanding is that Christians in Israel support the Jewish state. Here are the statements from the first link on the subject I found.

www.palestinefacts.org...


The Christian tradition in the Middle East goes back to the first century, but the most important date is 636, the Muslim Arab Conquest. Before that date the Middle East was inhabited by mostly Christians and Jews, subjects of the Christian Byzantine Empire. Afterward, Muslim Arabs dominated the region. Exceeding even the Roman's zeal for conquest, the Arabs wanted to muslimize everyone by force and over thirteen centuries of continuous oppression, they have largely succeeded, leaving only a few struggling groups.

At the beginning of the 20th century, rising nationalist feelings in the region led the Copts of Egypt, the Assyro-Chaldeans of Iraq, the South Sudanese, and the Lebanese Christians, to try to obtain independence. But the Islamic powers in the region denied these Christians their right to self-determination. At the expense of the Middle East Christians, Arab identity and Islamic domination were firmly established. Only the Jews of Israel were able to establish a non-Islamic nation in the region. Israel has suffered perpetual war and terrorism for that accomplishment.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 01:53 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 

Hey Poet!

I think I've asked you this before, but I believe I missed the answer last time. You mention the same thing here again, so I am wondering again:

How exactly does being Jewish give a person the right to a piece of land? Isn't that a rather racist (or the religious equivalent if you take Jewishness as a religion instead of a race, which is probably the normal thing to do) idea? Why should the fact that a person is Jewish entitle them to a separate piece of land, a Jewish state? Isn't that prejudiced?

Now I agree wholeheartedly, that a person should have the right to live on the land that their parents lived on, their grandparents lived on, and their grandparents lived on, regardless of whether they're Muslim, or Jewish, or Christian. And this happened too! There were many Palestinian Jews that lived in the area, and they had 100% rights to live there. There were many Palestinian Christians who lived in the area, and they have 100% rights too. As do the muslims.

The problem comes when someone comes from SOMEWHERE ELSE, evicts the person living on the land, and claims a right to it, based on the fact that their ancestors MAY have lived their over 2000 years ago.


Of course, this whole discussion is pointless, not only because it isn't on topic, but because those people have been living their for at least 1 or 2 generations now, and can't REALLY be expected to go back where they came from. This doesn't mean that a more equal and balanced attitude can be taken towards both the Israelis and the Palestinians.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 02:09 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


Migration is a funny thing. Land does not care who lives in on it. Land does not hear claims or wars or peace. Land is land. It belongs to those that take it and hold it. The claim that the Jews use is not absolute but it is better than nothing. The Jews came back and held the land. They defeated the Arabs twice. If they lost you and I would not be having this conversation. But they won and until defeated they are not leaving. That is the reality not the ideology.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by Founding
 

This is a different argument, and while I wouldn't consider it a morally correct one, I suppose it is a fact of life: Might is Right.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


Who has said that being Jewish gives anyone a right to a piece of land, or that being Muslim gives them a right to a piece of land? If the people of Israel do not have a right a country, than neither does Islam, or anyone else for that matter. It seems you want to grant special rights to some groups, but not to others.

If you move somewhere where no one else is living, and you build yourself a home, then you have a right to claim that as your home. This is how things were done in the west when massive areas of land were open. Being Jewish has nothing to do with it. Now, if you create a home, and then lay claim to vast areas around your home, then you are just being greedy, and unless you can defend and control those vast areas you claim as your own, then you have no right to them. Islam has claimed right to all of the Middle East, including areas that they have taken and held by force. Islam has no right to claim this vast piece of land, if Israel has no right to claim the small area that they have established.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 02:35 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


Hey Poet!

Originally posted by poet1b
If the people of Israel do not have a right a country, than neither does Islam, or anyone else for that matter.

I'm not the one that wants some groups to have special rights and others to not, but by the look of that quote, it seems that you do. I never said that Islam deserves special rights. Before the people of Israel became the people of Israel, what exact right did they have to this 'small piece of land' in the middle east?

See, the problem isn't that someone should have the right to a piece of land that they're (legally) living on. The problem is that they shouldn't be taking land from other people. And I'm sorry, but if I move somewhere and start living where nobody else is living, I don't have a right to that land. The world doesn't work that way anymore. This isn't the old wild west. You need this little thing called a 'land deed'. I can't just randomly go to a small plot in the Antarctic and lay claim to it just because nobody else is there. I can't just randomly go to a small plot in the Sahara and lay claim to it. It gets even messier when the land I lay claim to actually belongs to someone else, and I kick them off that land.



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 05:08 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


Really, why can't you claim a piece of unoccupied turf in the Antarctic, or the Sahara desert? Exactly who kicked who off of whose land? Seems there was room available for everyone originally, but some people decided that others had no right to a nation of their own. That all of the area must be under the control of Islam.

By what right does Islam claim control of all of the Middle East?



posted on Feb, 7 2009 @ 05:15 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 





By what right does Islam claim control of all of the Middle East?


Sounds like hate speech to me. As far as I am concerned, people can pursue any religion they wish.



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