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Escaping Religious Images and Delusions

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posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by John Matrix
 


Keep the excellent work up John, you roll with the punches and rise up with excellent answers in your own words. Keep the great work up mate!




posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by justamomma
 


Ah but to say someone is running on "blind faith" and say that you are not is taking a situation in which neither side really has anything beyond belief and inferring you have proof you do not. Which is largely a veiled attempt at conversion via insult, you most likely don't see it that way and would disagree with doing it that way but look at it from the perspective of your opponent.


It would be... except that you admitted to it being a blind faith. I am just stating that I think it is sad that one would settle on such. I am really failing to see the point you are trying to make. You said it was blind faith, no? Having no proof makes it such, no? So, I am making a judgement that it is sad that you feel that you have to settle.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by TheMythLives
reply to post by John Matrix
 


Keep the excellent work up John, you roll with the punches and rise up with excellent answers in your own words. Keep the great work up mate!


Encouragement well received.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 08:28 PM
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The flesh does these things, not communication as God is the Word, you could say the smashing someones flesh With a hammer is a type of communication, but id say it a type that is unsophisticated and does not operate in truth, Which the bible binds one too... and has bound many to it, in this manner



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by justamomma
 


No you said blind faith ma'am. I may have typed blind faith in framing my response to you but that is all.
Why would I say blind faith when I have stated contrary multiple times now?


[edit on 25-1-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 08:56 PM
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reply to post by TheMythLives
 


To indirectly answer your question, I follow my own path always.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by John Matrix
 


Keyword.
You believe.
I respect and even after a fashion share your belief, some what, if not agree completely with the particulars. But in the end neither of us have unassailable proof and both await the journey beyond death with little more than belief.

[edit on 25-1-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]


I just wonder why anyone would believe anything in which they personally had no proof of.

It is sad really.


So, You have nothing to testify to, so you see other peoples ways and beliefs, as sad?

Has it ever occured to you that some people have moved well beyond believing in Jesus to actually knowing him? Maybe instead of feeling sad for others ways and beliefs you need to feel sad for yourself as to why you haven't been given personal proof.

Just a thought.









[edit on 25-1-2009 by Myrtales Instinct]



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 10:44 PM
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reply to post by Myrtales Instinct
 


LOL.... man i love it when people are faced with their own delusions in somonelse. its priceless.... thank you for your input.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 11:05 PM
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Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
So, You have nothing to testify to, so you see other peoples ways and beliefs, as sad?

Has it ever occured to you that some people have moved well beyond believing in Jesus to actually knowing him? Maybe instead of feeling sad for others ways and beliefs you need to feel sad for yourself as to why you haven't been given personal proof.

Just a thought.


John 14.

7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

If you know Jesus, then you would also know the father. If you know the father, then I should be able to recognize the father within you who will speak and do works through you. I recognize it in Jesus, as I know the father. People worship and praise Jesus so much they seem to forget that it is not the words of Jesus, they are the words of the father that speaks through him.

And this is pretty much the entire point. In someone like John Matrix I do not see the father speaking through him. I see only the bible, word of man, word of the scribes speaking through him. I do not see the understanding the father and the holy spirit brings in him.

There are specific events that happen, and specific understandings that come in the process. These things are also explained in the same Chapter as before.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

At that day means at a specific time you will know this. And it says you will know this, because there is no longer any doubt. There is no longer a doubt about who you are, you will KNOW.

And this is not just for Christians.

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

If you don't love or do as Jesus says, then you will hear the father. This is what I heard.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

And so this is when you get the holy spirit and the holy spirit will teach you things and understandings.

Not to say you can't see Jesus. But it is actually IMO a bit more difficult to see Jesus than it is to see the father. I skipped a few verses here, but you can look in the chapter and see them, and what you have to do to see Jesus is much harder. You will have to actually follow the path and do as he says completely. Truly believe him, which is not easy. Easy to claim, not so easy to actually believe. And again, at the very least they should have the basic understandings I do. Because it is the father who speaks through him.

When I see the understandings of someone like John, who believes in things like war, who believes that only his religion has truth, or believes that anyone not in his religion goes to hell and so on, then I know he doesn't. All he knows is what he has studied in books. He only knows the fears and manipulation of man. Is nothing like Jesus.

And when I see people who don't think we are "gods", or sons/daughters of god, then I know they haven't seen the father. If they had, they would have no troubles or fears in saying so. Does Jesus have fear in saying so?

I don't even think these guys are going to hell or anything like that. It just means they don't know the father yet, and they are only fooling themselves by accepting the bible in place of it. Sure the bible speaks a good bit of truth, but you can't understand it without knowing the truth before it. The return of Jesus is symbolic of the return of truth. And when this happens, then all those of the spirit of god will know and see the truth for themselves, and they will adapt accordingly. Forgiveness is always immediate, provided you are actually sorry and learned from the mistake, because then it is no longer an issue as you won't do it anymore. Which is all that has really been asked of you.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 11:12 PM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct
 


LOL.... man i love it when people are faced with their own delusions in somonelse. its priceless.... thank you for your input.


Delusions? Your signature is quoting a comic book and you want to chuckle at my words? Okie dokie!




posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
Here is some more proof of your ignorance. Brain death occurs after minutes of oxygenated blood not reaching the brain... if the cells continued to reamin nourished then the body could be revived hours later... and has been in extreme cold water drownings.


When the vessel dies then the soul leaves. You keep pretending that I have no respect or understanding for these things. I do. The body is a machine, it does work off causality. It is made from the earth, this universe, and is based on logic.




Where do you draw the line at where a collection of cells gains a "soul". do animals have souls? do plants? do bacteria or viruses? Reality is interpreted by your brain... just beacuse we cannot understand how all of this creates your thoughts and emotions does NOT make it false... it is still a possiblity that conciousness is a natural side effect to reality. Saying anything other than that is what is delusional, but i wouldnt want you to forefit your soul.


I'm pretty sure plants, bacteria and viruses have no consciousness, they are programs. The same could be true of animals, as they mostly operate based on instinct, rather than understanding. But I am not completely sure about animals, as they do seem to show signs of consciousness and understanding.

The basic way you can tell is this. If they operate based only on action and reaction, which is casuality, then they are a program. If they have reason and understanding, then they have a soul/consciousness.




Im speaking to your logic not mine... i could use correct lingo that applys to such an undersatnding, but then you would have no idea what im saying. i have to use your words to talk to you.


Actually, you aren't speaking my logic. I am a programmer, and get paid because of how logical I am. What you fail to realize is that I have spent years studying this topic. I once believed as you do. And because of that, I set out to create actual intelligence, not just artificial intelligence. I could spend days talking about the purpose and reason for "life and death", and even how the body and brain itself acts much like a computer. I had it all planned based on logic. But then I hit a problem.

I can't give this thing free will. I can not give this thing consciousness. In the end, what I am creating is nothing more than a program. It has no consciousness, it does not observe, it does not understand what it means to be, it has no heart. None of the things that have long been attributed to having a soul. Basically, it would be what you currently believe we are, but aren't. In fact, the only way I could ever give this program these things was for me to put my consciousness inside it.

Do you know why I put so much into the authority as truth, or truth as authority? Because I had to actually sit and ponder the logic behind how one determines what is fact from fiction. Do we accept what authority says to us as truth? Like our parents. That is what we do as a child isn't it? Do we use only what we can prove as truth? By default, this logic all but guarentees the truth won't be found. Or do we use what makes sense? And what kind of logic is there to see if something makes sense?

Do you even realize that without free will, you can not have actual intelligence? By your own beliefs, intelligence is not possible.

I often post about people and their false beliefs of AI.

Here's a rather lengthy post about that topic if you would like more detail.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

So you aren't even close to talking my logic. It is possible for us to create all of creation in a program. As it is based on logic, you can come up with the logic to create it. But it is all for nothing until there is a consciousness to view it. And again, this is described in the bible as god creates everything(the universe, based on logic), and then the spirit of god fills it to bring it to "life". Puts in the observer, the soul, and all that stuff.

All things into their proper place. Science is best in the realm of logic and creation. It is important. However, Philosophy(Religion without all the idol stuff), is about the best we can come to towards understanding consciousness. Those who only look to Science for answers, and those who only look to Religion for answers are both foolish.



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct
 


LOL.... man i love it when people are faced with their own delusions in somonelse. its priceless.... thank you for your input.



Man I love it when people have such low self esteem, they need to come to a religious conspiracy forum and put others down for their beliefs as a way of making themselves feel better.

Hates religion so much, yet can't stop talking about it.



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 12:05 AM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


I'm very familiar with how Spirit works and how it manifests in us, which is the key to understanding what Jesus was talking about when he gave his discourse on the Holy Spirit of how the Father gave of his Spirit to Jesus and how Jesus gives to us from the Father. I get it. I know it.

I can't speak for John, but I did remind him back on page three of this thread, that it is a no-brainer for people to try and live and be guided by the Holy Spirit but alot of people haven't been baptized with the Holy Spirit... yet and I think it's imperative that the people who have received this blessing to start giving testimony other than 'we need to live by the Spirit of God.' You would think people would want to know; how, when, why, and where. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would teach us all things and though it is a progressive process it's the truth. And my point is - the things we have learned we should begin to share.

I think people would be more inclined to talk about disclosure and how it works, than John's views on war.



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 12:22 AM
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Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
I'm very familiar with how Spirit works and how it manifests in us, which is the key to understanding what Jesus was talking about when he gave his discourse on the Holy Spirit of how the Father gave of his Spirit to Jesus and how Jesus gives to us from the Father. I get it. I know it.

I can't speak for John, but I did remind him back on page three of this thread, that it is a no-brainer for people to try and live and be guided by the Holy Spirit but alot of people haven't been baptized with the Holy Spirit... yet and I think it's imperative that the people who have received this blessing to start giving testimony other than 'we need to live by the Spirit of God.' You would think people would want to know; how, when, why, and where. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would teach us all things and though it is a progressive process it's the truth. And my point is - the things we have learned we should begin to share.

I think people would be more inclined to talk about disclosure and how it works, than John's views on war.


You can try. I certainly have and do. I almost always get quotes from Paul in response, and then called proud, arrogant and other names.

I was far away from the bible when I found the truth. When I started talking about this stuff, I never mentioned Jesus or quoted Jesus or the bible. I tried to explain these things in my own words, and I was pretty much called an anti-christ by christians.

When I talk about Jesus, they cheer. But as soon as I start to talk about the understanding behind it, they have fits. Even though it's the same things Jesus says. Go figure.

As for John and his war views. That's just a sign he isn't what he claims to be. This thread is not about escaping religious images and delusions, it's been about submitting to them. Double talk. He is talking about selling your soul. It's all about hating yourself, when the very thing that even gives us a sense of self comes from the father. He isn't trying to get people to love the father, he is teaching people to hate the father. Hate yourself, put yourself down so that you won't see the father and so you will accept the external, non-self anti-Christ. A demon if I ever saw one.



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 12:32 AM
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reply to post by badmedia
 





I'm pretty sure plants, bacteria and viruses have no consciousness, they are programs. The same could be true of animals, as they mostly operate based on instinct, rather than understanding. But I am not completely sure about animals, as they do seem to show signs of consciousness and understanding. The basic way you can tell is this. If they operate based only on action and reaction, which is casuality, then they are a program. If they have reason and understanding, then they have a soul/consciousness.


So monkeys must have souls... they use sign language to communicate their thoughts. Dolphins use language.... elephants recognize themselves in mirrors.... Octopi can watch and understand how to open doors and lids to mulitple types of contianters.

Technology is only now cathing up to the memory capacity and processing power of the human mind... it wasnt possible untill tech caught up.

Your failure as a programmer or lack of technological capability at the time does not prove that freewill exists.....

Its only your ego that thinks it is free from cause and effect. There werent proper tools back in the day to prove the earth was round.... saddly many followed flawed logic like yours... many were tortured and killed beacuse of their ignorance and blind faith.

Its also funny how you say the story of JOB is litteral yet the story of jesus is figuritive.... do you find anything wrong with this logic???

When a dog pulls a man out of a burning building.. is that free will? what about if a pig does it....

what then can you claim if half of the animals have free will and the other half doesnt??? is it possible then that a soul develops through evolution?




[edit on 26-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

[edit on 26-1-2009 by Wertdagf]



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 01:04 AM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
So monkeys must have souls... they use sign language to communicate their thoughts. Dolphins use language.... elephants recognize themselves in mirrors.... Octopi can watch and understand how to open doors and lids to mulitple types of contianters.


It's possible. I don't rule it out, but I don't know either. In fact, I don't even know if you have a soul. I only know for sure that I do. I personally think it is safe to assume you do, but I couldn't prove it or know for sure 1 way or another. But plants, bacteria and such I'm pretty sure do not have souls.



Technology is only now cathing up to the memory capacity and processing power of the human mind... it wasnt possible untill tech caught up.


They are very powerful even as is. There is a reason they do not make mistakes in math, even on really large numbers, which a human can't do. A human can understand it, and do the math eventually. But I can never be 100% right with such speed. It has no free will, it can not be wrong.



Your failure as a programmer or lack of technological capability at the time does not prove that freewill exists.....


Even if you ignore any technology capabilities, you can not come up with logic for consciousness. NOBODY CAN. If you can do it, then as I have said many times, I can make you a rich man. You will have discovered something bigger than finding life on another planet. It is that big of a deal. The closest you can come to simulate consciousness is to generate random numbers. In fact, for a time I thought this would be how I could generate it. Generate random numbers, and what those numbers land on define the basic characteristics of the person. But yet, logic can't even generate a truly random number even. Logic is bound to rules and laws, consciousness isn't.

This is a problem that has been discussed for 1000's of years. If you can prove otherwise do it. Otherwise, it is your own ignorant faith that someday it will be possible.



Its only your ego that thinks it is free from cause and effect. There werent proper tools back in the day to prove the earth was round.... saddly many followed flawed logic like yours... many were tortured and killed beacuse of their ignorance and blind faith.


It's a myth that people thought the world was flat. Most scholars thousands of years ago knew the world was round. It's never been a secret. Yes, even the bible says the world is round. The church said it was flat, and don't get me started on the church. The church is the church of Satan. They didn't follow or understand. That is why so many were tortured and killed. In truth is was prophecy fulfilled. A new religion formed in the name of christ, did not actually follow him and killed anyone who didn't go along with it. And ignorant christians of today sit around and wait for it to happen without realizing it already did.



Its also funny how you say the story of JOB is litteral yet the story of jesus is figuritive.... do you find anything wrong with this logic???


The story of Job isn't literal. Again, it's like going back to the matrix deal. If I say the matrix is real, then if you want to be ridiculous and focus on the literal part, then you can sit around and mock me for thinking "neo is fighting the machines". But it would be your own ignorance that you are mocking because it is in no way anywhere near what I meant.

You still have not answered those questions. I didn't think you could handle them. So caught up in the thought itself(creation) that you are too blind to recognize the thinker.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by badmedia]



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 06:46 AM
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reply to post by Wertdagf
 


Or you can take the views of animism and believe EVERYTHING has a soul even when it doesn't have consciousness.



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 08:34 AM
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John,

I was only challenging your position on divine nature. I was not having a issue with the messenger, but the message.

Your thread mentioned religious delusions. I only presented that mabey the idea of what the divine nature you were portraying could also be a delusion.

I dont think I was ugly, I didnt call names, say any one was ignorant, selling their soul or was a demon.

Im not setting anyone up nor trying to point a finger. Were you trying to point fingers when you began the thread of asking people if they are following a religious delusion? I assume you were not, you were presenting your belief and I hope I presented mine in a civil manner. If I came off as uncivil, I apologize, that was not ever my intention.

I enjoy sharing thoughts and hearing others. Im not here to put any one down or say they are wrong, but mabey we can all make each other think a little. If we all felt that these things shouldnt be discussed, we wouldnt start threads to discuss such things.

I thank you again for being civil in the discussion and not trying to resort to lower standards of belittling or name calling because my thoughts differ from yours. I hope in the future we can have more civil discussions in other threads.

About the topic of blind faith that others are discussing. I agree with the ones that are saying its not blind faith that one believes in something. Each person has reasons for what they believe and most are very passionate about why the believe what they do. I have my own belief, but I aslo have learned from others. Some stick to materials, some go on personal experiences, some use science and what they feel is logic to support their beliefs.

I personally am glad that we all come here and posts our thoughts, even if it leads to discussing a disagreement.....at least we all get to practice respect twards eachother and tolerance of anothers faith. Well I think most try to do this anyways.

Peace to all,
LV



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


Well i really believe that nothing has a soul... and that we are mearly the dust devils of reality.. the same energy that drives my mind and body is the same that your household toster uses... and if you give us to much of that current we will be negitively affected the same.

I think the soul was a concept that was created to justify someone suffering for others. Like the working class suffering for the rich. Worked out perfect wouldnt you say?



posted on Jan, 26 2009 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by Wertdagf
 


Plausible, but lacking in proof, just like Mr Matrix's belief and it IS just a belief. Since lack of proof is NOT proof of lack.





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